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On October 27 2011 21:53 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 21:44 enslaved[t] wrote:On October 27 2011 21:26 maggy0 wrote:
shitty blog. Protoss is the easiest race by far. Zerg requires strategic thinking and good mechanics. Zergs whine because 90% (at least for myself) of the games that they lose, it is because of some stupid timing/rush/allin and not a "real" macro game where real skills are shown.
1 star for hyprocitic opinions and double standards. Every game is a real game no matter how you look at it, this ranges from cannon rushing to 1hour long turtle games... Also I just wanted to throw this out here. With all the whining about balance going on, atleast in my opinion no one below Masters league has ever lost a game soley due to the state of the game balance wise. Just out of curiosity is there anyone who agrees with me, or am i just a terran fool? I know this is a bold statement but I'm almost tempted to even say below GM as well, but this might be too bold :p I completely agree with you. Even in lower masters, I only lose because I suck. That's the only reason.
I also agree with the point you want to make in general, but I would like to reformulate it a bit.
In a way you can say that as long as nestea has a decent chance to win against anyone, then no zerg (at least below code S) is losing a single game due to balance, as nestea would have won in your place.
Assume a game where you have 50% probability win, depending on how well you and your opponent execute. If you lose it, it is easy to say that you lost because of bad execution, after all, nestea would've won.
Now assume there is a small imbalance, making your probability to win 48%. Now did you lose because of bad execution (nestea still wouldve won) or because of the 2% imbalance? Nestea would still be able to compete in code S with a 48% imbalance, so the first argument still holds. What if the win probability is 40%, or 5%? At what point can you start saying that you lost because of imbalance?
So my point is that just because you could have won most lost games game by executing better (or being more lucky with build orders), which for sure is the case up to code A at least, doesn't mean that you are completely unaffected by balance.
So I would formulate the statement like this:
Up to code A level at least, it is skill holding back your MMR, not imbalance.
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Switching races because the other people that play that race are annoying?
I agree with that poster who says u should play random. You're already halfway there with this blog title.
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On October 27 2011 22:41 Koshi wrote:
Let me get this straight.
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Zerg was right to complain about balance a while back, you disagree? Ok.
Let's bring back range 3 for roach, let's bring back speed reapers, let's bring back close positions, let's bring back jungle Basin, let's bring back Delta Quadrant, let's bring back the old infestor, let's bring back Steppes of War, let's rollback all the nerfs to Terran.
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I have been reading many post on TL in the past 15 months, I have access to TL while working. You are exaggerating. I dare to say that zerg users have been quite silent about balance past 3 months. True, ghosts are still capable to raise the blood of zergies sometimes.
Also, if SCII is a sport, and in my opinion it is, emotions are a part of it. Overheating is a part of having emotions, not typing on TL.net while you are overheating is common sense, but common sense isn't always there while you are overheating.
Your blog is a monstrosity, I see myself as a part of the zerg community and reading your blog almost makes me feel anger towards you. I don't understand why it is even allowed by the mods that somebody just shits over an entire community like you do.
Ranting without proof, without knowledge, without a brain. You mastered it.
I think I made it clear that this is directed at a subsection of the community as whole. And you say I'm ranting without proof. I didn't assume I needed one for something so glaringly obvious, but for reference, read the next 40 pages or so of this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278169¤tpage=231
And count the cries.
from the same series after a successful blue flame hellion drop:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278169¤tpage=172
Read on.
So I respect the fact you do not agree with me, but don't accuse me of being wrong or uninformed when I am not. And again, sure most of the people understand that Nestea lost those finals because of blunders, but there are just too many people crying about terran units or whatever.
And I dare say 5rax reaper would've been figured out eventually.
I get emotional about players, not balance, I cheer for a team, not for a race (I think I have suggested like 5 times that we get Team signatures in the SC2 section like in the BW section).
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On October 27 2011 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
Switching races because the other people that play that race are annoying?
I agree with that poster who says u should play random. You're already halfway there with this blog title.
Such a good point, I probably should.
I need to learn terran though, I can't deal with so many production buildings and with the mules I end up with like 1000 minerals on 8 minutes.
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You do know this game has multiple building selection?
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Ghost are still a touchy subject. But not only Zerg user are ranting there, Protoss users think the same, and even some Terrans frowned after seeing July lose his 200/200 Ultra Broodlord army in the GSL. This thread didn't even come close to the whine we read there.
Your hellion "example"? If that DISGUST you, wauw. Go read the comments again, there are 3 times more people praising Nestea for coming back and retaking drone lead, people criticizing Nestea for being to greedy, people saying 2 spines shouldn't be enough against helions than there are people whining. I was reading that thread live.
I didn't remove that small bit about you saying it is only about a "part".
On October 27 2011 19:32 Palmar wrote:
the only thing that really sucks is the community around Zerg.
Let me put it this way, there is a certain subsection of the Zerg community that consists of some of the most annoying whining assholes that I have ever seen.
The Zergs here make me so ashamed of playing this race of losers that think they're losing because of imbalance when they're just terrible.
Until I meet other Zerg players whose tears disgust me.
I'm at the point now that I'm so disgusted with the Zerg community that I want to switch to something where I can enjoy the company of people who aren't crying losers.
You never saw a zerg player love their race like you do. You are pathetic.
On October 27 2011 19:32 Palmar wrote:
I wish Zergies would always be like "fuck yeah, we're awesome, let's do this". But I've never seen Zerg players loving their race the way I do.
And then following part. Most of us comment on what we see on the highest level. Especially if you go search proof in MLG/GSL/BlizzCon Live Threads.
On October 27 2011 19:32 Palmar wrote:
I think personally that Zerg is the easiest race to play at lower levels. 1 building to macro from and you can be very effective with minimal amount of micro. I play people on daily basis who are better than me, but I can win them anyway because of maphack (overlords/creep) and just a-moving my units on them.
I think Zerg is awesome, borderline OP, and I'm really happy I'm playing Zerg. Until I meet other Zerg players whose tears disgust me.
Awesome post. You aren't an elitist asshole.
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On October 27 2011 23:18 Bd.Snake wrote:
You do know this game has multiple building selection?
haha, yeah, I'm aware.
But 1szzzzzzz is easier than 4aaaaaa5ss6dd
It's obviously just inexperience with terran, for some reason I caught onto protoss mechanics really fast, I guess it's from playing protoss in bw.
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so now your whining that you have to press 5 and 6 2 actions?
i think you need to rethink your rant/whine ^^
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On October 27 2011 23:42 Bd.Snake wrote:
so now your whining that you have to press 5 and 6 2 actions?
i think you need to rethink your rant/whine ^^
There is a difference between whining and admitting you can't do something 
I don't think the game needs to be changed to suit me, I think I need to change to suit the game.
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what are you talking about this thread was a whine about whiners plz explain that
im not talking about your stupid statement of 1sz 4a5s6d
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imo there's a lot of whine about zerg from lower level players because it's not harder to master from a micro/macro perspective but I think it requires a higher level of thinking to player a lower level than terran or protoss would, taking out of my point balance, mules, control etc as a protoss you always build workers and units at the same time as zerg you have to choose and understand when you can and can't to someone that's just started sc2 I think that's the most mindfucking thing.
Now as terran/prortoss you build your workers and choose your 'units' to make and pick your timing to attack, if the zerg has made to many drones he dies if the zerg made too many units earlier and didn't have the drones to keep up he dies if hes bad and misses half of his injects (which lower level players do) he dies. Now this guy with little understanding of the game and pissed off that he just got amoved into and died and doesn't understand what he could of done watch goes back watches the replay sees he was 40supply ahead or whatever and then starts moaning terran is imba etc.
Zerg is so fragile and you get punished for so easily for making mistakes but it's rewarding when you play close to perfect or at least closer than your opponent has and have the right information through scouting to make better decisions. Again I just think zerg is harder for some people to wrap there head around.and I believe at lower level as terran and protoss you can use sentrys and tanks and defensive buildings to not be punished as easily as a zerg for a mistake, the better the players the more balanced it becomes.
On October 27 2011 21:26 maggy0 wrote:
shitty blog. Protoss is the easiest race by far. Zerg requires strategic thinking and good mechanics. Zergs whine because 90% (at least for myself) of the games that they lose, it is because of some stupid timing/rush/allin and not a "real" macro game where real skills are shown.
1 star for hyprocitic opinions and double standards.
No. Every race requires strategic thinking and good mechanics and timing or and all in is good player if it's reactive or planned out so well you couldn't stop it imo the real skills are shown when you're good enough to macro well enough and KNOW when enough is enough through good scouting to stop these 'shitty' all ins, Not thinking because you blindly make 80 drones go to 4base untouched then think because then you fight the p/t that didn't pressure or hit you with a timing you're better? if you play a heavy macro style that always get caught by these timings ofc you're going to win all the time when they back off and let you macro. Jesus if you're higher than gold i'll be disgusted
And to the OP can you you possibly think zerg is the easiest to play at lower levels a point like "oh they only make stuff from one building" is ignorant and idiotic as each race has it's strengths and weaknesses I'd love to be able to save up 200 energy on my queens and drop 8 injects at once if my macro slips or warp in units under my overlords every race is different and balanced differently and imo protoss is easiest race to play in terms of learning it but it's UP to all hell, Terran just has too many options atm and they're too versatile being able to have t1 units function in the very late game is kinda disgusting really.
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Imo Zergs whine alot(well, most of them :p) because there are about 2 million different ways how you can die. The lack of wallin/FF and really versatile core units can hurt you a lot when you play the reactionary style. There are so many different compositions and timings and it's hard to get a good read and the knowledge how to respond to them until you are really good.
Zerg is not the hardest race, but the most frustrating race imo.
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Sheeple are even racist against video game races...
I honestly don't even know how to respond to this thread. I'm having a hard time figuring out which posters are actually partisan for or against a video game race, and which posters are just going along with the stupidity.
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On October 28 2011 00:26 conz wrote:imo there's a lot of whine about zerg from lower level players because it's not harder to master from a micro/macro perspective but I think it requires a higher level of thinking to player a lower level than terran or protoss would, taking out of my point balance, mules, control etc as a protoss you always build workers and units at the same time as zerg you have to choose and understand when you can and can't to someone that's just started sc2 I think that's the most mindfucking thing. Now as terran/prortoss you build your workers and choose your 'units' to make and pick your timing to attack, if the zerg has made to many drones he dies if the zerg made too many units earlier and didn't have the drones to keep up he dies if hes bad and misses half of his injects (which lower level players do) he dies. Now this guy with little understanding of the game and pissed off that he just got amoved into and died and doesn't understand what he could of done watch goes back watches the replay sees he was 40supply ahead or whatever and then starts moaning terran is imba etc. Zerg is so fragile and you get punished for so easily for making mistakes but it's rewarding when you play close to perfect or at least closer than your opponent has and have the right information through scouting to make better decisions. Again I just think zerg is harder for some people to wrap there head around.and I believe at lower level as terran and protoss you can use sentrys and tanks and defensive buildings to not be punished as easily as a zerg for a mistake, the better the players the more balanced it becomes. Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 21:26 maggy0 wrote:
shitty blog. Protoss is the easiest race by far. Zerg requires strategic thinking and good mechanics. Zergs whine because 90% (at least for myself) of the games that they lose, it is because of some stupid timing/rush/allin and not a "real" macro game where real skills are shown.
1 star for hyprocitic opinions and double standards. No. Every race requires strategic thinking and good mechanics and timing or and all in is good player if it's reactive or planned out so well you couldn't stop it imo the real skills are shown when you're good enough to macro well enough and KNOW when enough is enough through good scouting to stop these 'shitty' all ins, Not thinking because you blindly make 80 drones go to 4base untouched then think because then you fight the p/t that didn't pressure or hit you with a timing you're better? if you play a heavy macro style that always get caught by these timings ofc you're going to win all the time when they back off and let you macro. Jesus if you're higher than gold i'll be disgusted And to the OP can you you possibly think zerg is the easiest to play at lower levels a point like "oh they only make stuff from one building" is ignorant and idiotic as each race has it's strengths and weaknesses I'd love to be able to save up 200 energy on my queens and drop 8 injects at once if my macro slips or warp in units under my overlords every race is different and balanced differently and imo protoss is easiest race to play in terms of learning it but it's UP to all hell, Terran just has too many options atm and they're too versatile being able to have t1 units function in the very late game is kinda disgusting really.
You nailed it!
Luckily this is just a rant, but I feel like it's been caused by selective reading. Everyone whines when their favourite player loses horribly. Idra fans complain high on end regarding cheese on him. That's just it they're passionate about their race. I blame the ref when I see my team lose in a football (soccer) match, whether it's justified or not.
I don't know why the OP was belittling the Zerg race though, you were asking for trouble. Yes building units are simplified, but the above post explains how much more depth is involved, not just mass produce roaches....
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EPT
