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I am High master Terran on KR here are my takes on the new units for HoTS. Overall my viewpoint in what makes a game a good strategy game is having positional play and not making it nooby friendly to where you can counter everything. When it comes down to it its a game of who can takes bases and defend them. I want the player's skill to be the counter of everything not the units alone. I agree WoL is missing key units that arn't giving enough fluff to the strat and skill aspect imo. For protoss it seems like a A move race due to collosus being so easy to move and attack and nothing other than the templars needs micro. Just ball your army and A move. Same with Z it seems like an A move race. But for T we need to stim and studder step to be cost effective. T needs to micro their tanks and reposition them. Ghosts need to land EMPS. None of the other races has to do that.. All the units we have in WoL seem to be A move while only T is the race that needs to worry about positional play more than any other race.
We need units that are cost effective in holding a position but still have one hard counter that breaks that. Either by larger ranged units or can't attack air that sort of stuff. Needs abilities that arn't nooby friendly which can PUNISH players for being out of position. If you have an ability that can easily defend a drop from the other side of the map it just makes the game not fun to watch. We NEED to see mistakes, that is what is entertaining to watch. We NEED the players to try to not making mistakes, that is what makes the game competitive.
The game needs to be centered around simple easy straight forward to use units/abilities but at the same time have a gap where if used right it can be very cost effective or used wrongly not so.
Burrow move banelings - Good idea but I have problem with it already. Late game with 6+ bases means you have to either PF and turret each base or leave some army near them so that banelings don't just explode your mineral line. Making PF would be a better option imo cuz you need all your army ready to fight the maxed army of zerg. But at the same time I want an option to just have an orbital and not must build a PF in fear of that. Then for protoss you bascially MUST cannon each base or choke up. Protoss has it easier. One thing P and T could do is just wall off the choke, I hope burrow still can't move under buildings. But it will still be cost effective for the Z for the other opponent to spend on buildings we don't need at that time. Z can basically burrow in their base then move the banelings across the map like a noob into your mineral lines.
Replicator - Kinda overpowered cuz if T 111's then they have to get ready for you sending their own 'cloak' banshee at you. Both races spend about the same to tech to and get a banshee/replicator but the T has to spend more to get cloak while P doesn't also on top of that. T needs to get an ebay and a turret to defend your cloak banshee. Still I do not know how long it takes to make the replicator cuz I havn't played HoTS at all this is just theory. Overall, if this unit turns out to just out right turn possible openers upside down it would be just best if the T just 1 rax expo all the time cuz any build you do to the P he will do to you.
Warhound - Love it but one problem, having it break tanks. We have the marauder already and if the warhound comes in then whats the point of having the marauder... I don't quite like having a tech path that can basically counter all that T has. Seem it will turn into a mech vs mech in TvT. T definately needed a better more mobile AtA. I agree that the thor sucked, slow and big.
Sheddar - Love it again but again seems a bit too too cost effective in stoping runbys. In BW spider mines were good at stoping runbys but they were not reusable and once you place them you can't move them. This unit(sheddar) is reusable and can be repositioned. This also requires less micro cuz its a lay and leave it type of unit. Not like the spider mines where you have to keep making more spider mines over once the old ones get destoried. But still I am not sure how cost effective this is and how much health it really has, but overall I do agree T needs something like the spidermine to do some map control.
Protoss turret arc shield thingy - Gay, late game you have like 25 warp gates, and like 6-8 nexi. T or Z drops your bases. Use your energy on like 6 buildings and you defend the drop. Kinda nooby doesn't punish protoss for being out of position and being late game like that you can basically save energy up cuz you dont' really need chrono.
Recall to nexus - Gay again cuz protoss already has warpgates and doesn't punish protoss for being out of position also its something from tier 1, not tier 3. Its understandable if it requires tier 3. But when its like a base race secnario and he recalls to protect his last nexus kinda OP. Also if I try to snipe a nexus and recall stops that eh.. I mean you have warp gate wtf else you want.
Burrow Ram Ultra - Kinda overkill. I agree that the zerg really needed a postional unit such as the swarm host to hold a position also something like blinding cloud to break seige lines. But with blinding cloud and burrow ram that just seems to break siege lines too easily with the addition of the locust as the expendable units to take the first couple seige fires. Thats like 3 things that when stacked together seem to over come seige lines and comes in favor of the Z too much.
Thor - gtfo. period. Doesn't fit into T hate hero unit concepts. If you going to add a hero unit in a race you need to add them in the other races. Its just unfair.
Overall I believe the Zerg really needs the viper and swarm host. It was just too 1 dimensional the way we have it now. Now Z has ways of control or slowing pushes instead of relying on spines. Forces T to save scans in order to push which can make more macro based plays more possible. For T I do like the sheddar/spidermine and the warhound/golith, T didn't have a great way to get map control other than just rely on tanks. T needed something able to hold on its own long enough to send forces there since we don't have warp ins. The direction P is being taken seems to be too extreme imo. What P really needs is a mobile recall unit for harassment not a unmoblie nexus recall. Also something that can force the T to slow the push down such as scans for cloak. Reason why the arbiter was great in pushing into a macro type game. Forcing the T to making Ravens or scans before they can get a position.
 
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Singapore4119 Posts
I agree with you on the part that the game needs units that require skill to be effective not already strong units that are super easy to control. And from the way it looks Blizzard is becoming more like CnC. Sigh
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5 stars, I agree with you completely
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You seem somewhat biased towards your race and your take on other races.
Terran does have to do all those things. Yet if protoss and zerg were as simple as a moving your units don't you think we would see them winning a lot more?
I play random at a low level, and yet I do just as well with terran as I do with protoss and zerg. If your claim of terran being harder to play were true, then my terran should be much weaker.
Interestingly, after making those silly claims you went on to have some useful thoughts about the expansion.
Moving burrowed banelings: I agree, bad idea. To me it is more interesting to see players have foresight to use the banes correctly. I just don't see how having them move while burrowed adds to the gameplay.
Replicator - To me this is a purely anti 1-1-1 unit. In the vast majority of games it will be way too expensive to be cost effective once the other side has a more balanced army. The only time it is useful is when the other player does some sort of tech rush. The only race who has a consistently effective 1 base tech rush is terran. This is my least favorite of all the new HotS units.
Warhound - I am a big fan of this actually. This unit is the key to mech resurgence. Now if they would just nerf bio in some way...
Shreddar - I'll have to wait to see the stats on this thing. It reduces the micro/multitasking for terran, but adds it to the opponent who will need to keep a sharp eye out for stray shreddars. i think is could be an interesting unit.
Ultra charge - kinda silly looking (why does it move faster underground?) but pretty need imo
thor - agree but it doesn't bother me since no one will build it.
P needs mobile recall? I personally feel like it doesn't fit with the power of the deathball.
Anyway, good thoughts.
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On October 23 2011 13:34 petered wrote:
You seem somewhat biased towards your race and your take on other races.
Terran does have to do all those things. Yet if protoss and zerg were as simple as a moving your units don't you think we would see them winning a lot more?
I play random at a low level, and yet I do just as well with terran as I do with protoss and zerg. If your claim of terran being harder to play were true, then my terran should be much weaker.
Interestingly, after making those silly claims you went on to have some useful thoughts about the expansion.
Moving burrowed banelings: I agree, bad idea. To me it is more interesting to see players have foresight to use the banes correctly. I just don't see how having them move while burrowed adds to the gameplay.
Replicator - To me this is a purely anti 1-1-1 unit. In the vast majority of games it will be way too expensive to be cost effective once the other side has a more balanced army. The only time it is useful is when the other player does some sort of tech rush. The only race who has a consistently effective 1 base tech rush is terran. This is my least favorite of all the new HotS units.
Warhound - I am a big fan of this actually. This unit is the key to mech resurgence. Now if they would just nerf bio in some way...
Shreddar - I'll have to wait to see the stats on this thing. It reduces the micro/multitasking for terran, but adds it to the opponent who will need to keep a sharp eye out for stray shreddars. i think is could be an interesting unit.
Ultra charge - kinda silly looking (why does it move faster underground?) but pretty need imo
thor - agree but it doesn't bother me since no one will build it.
P needs mobile recall? I personally feel like it doesn't fit with the power of the deathball.
Anyway, good thoughts.
I am not that bias. I do like the new zerg units a lot I feel they make the game better but these are the only couple problems I noticed when reading the updates. The others are ok or I just have to see them in beta to have an opinion. Still too early to say.
I believe you havn't played late game very much and experience the diffculties of this. I was refering to lategame 200 vs 200 armies. Not gimicky timing pushes with only a small number of unit combinations.
You have to agree that when engaging a 200 army T vs say a 200 army P the T has to worry a lot more stuff then the P. T needs to spread to negate the storms and archons while stim and a studder step to avoid zealots while trying to emp as much of the army as possible while cloaking the ghosts and trying to land an emp on the templars while avoiding the colosus as well as positioning the vikings in the right spot and target fire the colossus one at a time. The P on the other handle can just guardian shield and A move the zealots archons colosus forward. Blink micro a bit but might not need to that much cuz the zealots will take most of the hits while just having the templars selected and just auto storm. Its much much more easier for the P when engaging.
Imo it should take the same or close to the same APM for both races when engaging armies. Reason why protoss needs some unit acting indirectly or a support units such as the arbiter to place units in a phase mode and add an element of more micro. Just doesn't seem P has to micro that hard compared to T since storming is so much easier than in BW.
Recall is used for another option to avoid the 200 army and attack from an undefended area. The game right now is too one dimensional to where the armies almost always has to engage and fight instead of doing base sniping. I hardly see base sniping anymore. It was a real treat to see one arbiter sneak into a base and recall an entire force there. Reason why there was more empathsis on turreting up your bases as T. Positioning is the game and the arbiter forces army to keep repositioning or atleast have the army move around instead of always seeing the protoss and T just sit around and macro.
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I believe that the viper's abilities are really good.. maybe too good... Ultra charge just makes it even easier... Please blizzard, pick one or the other. Late game is looking like hell.... It's like they are forcing terran to win as early as possible...
I mean darkswarm?abduct? and a charge after you've done the previous two spells? maybe even fungals for lockdown while in the darkswarm.. It seems just a bit ridiculous...
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Nobody will take you seriously if you don't even provide credentials that can be proved and your entire post seems overwhelmingly biased. Not to mention the tone in which you've written this in makes you look like you just decided to log on to TL and give us your knee jerk reactions to the new changes without even thinking through it first.
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On October 24 2011 01:15 EzraLim wrote:
Nobody will take you seriously if you don't even provide credentials that can be proved and your entire post seems overwhelmingly biased. Not to mention the tone in which you've written this in makes you look like you just decided to log on to TL and give us your knee jerk reactions to the new changes without even thinking through it first.
I think describing units/abilities as gay is all the credentials he needs...
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On October 24 2011 01:56 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 01:15 EzraLim wrote:
Nobody will take you seriously if you don't even provide credentials that can be proved and your entire post seems overwhelmingly biased. Not to mention the tone in which you've written this in makes you look like you just decided to log on to TL and give us your knee jerk reactions to the new changes without even thinking through it first. I think describing units/abilities as gay is all the credentials he needs...
I was actually referring to whole 'High master in KR' thing =) But heh.
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I hardly care trying to prove credentials. Like anyone can get you a random link to a random high master or pic. Its the internet and not worth the time. If you seriously worry about that so much more then the OP itself thats just sad. Just check my stream once in a while and you can see for youself since you worry about that so much.
It was 3am in the morning when i made this post. Give me some slack when I name stuff gay. Beside I did explain my reasonings not like saying a unit is gay and left it there. Seriously...
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lol this is as biased as it gets and you honestly think you're opinion is objective?
facedesk.jpg
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But you really can't expect to get taken seriously if you talk about everything from only one perspective. While writing a text like that, arguing that your right since you know that people will disagree, you need to take examples of counter arguments from the other points of views (in this case, the Protoss' and Zerg's) and smash it. Not stating the way you think it is and that that's final.
You simply can't write the way you did if you want to be taken seriously, your text looks very angry and obviously biased.
A few good points, though, I have to say.
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They argue by saying my arguments arn't good and my credientail arn't even shown while not giving counter arguments at all. How is that fair then say I didn't explain my points when its obviously in the OP. Problem is i don't see any counter arguments just comments.
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Ok, well for one, Protoss and Zerg need to engage in a good position if they want a good chance of winning the battle because they have melee units. If you engage in a choke with those or let them come to far ahead of the rest of the army, you've pretty much lost the battle right there. For another, storming isn't easier than EMPing like you make it sound.
Basically, you make it sound like there is so much you need to do as Terran, but you don't even mention such obvious things like moving back colossi, fungaling, force fielding and so on. It just seems so angled.
And seriously, trying to make it a negative thing that Protoss actually might be able to do something to make it a bit easier to handle the 111, I actually almost started to think that you were trolling by that point.
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On October 24 2011 06:28 Nible wrote:
Ok, well for one, Protoss and Zerg need to engage in a good position if they want a good chance of winning the battle because they have melee units. If you engage in a choke with those or let them come to far ahead of the rest of the army, you've pretty much lost the battle right there. For another, storming isn't easier than EMPing like you make it sound.
Basically, you make it sound like there is so much you need to do as Terran, but you don't even mention such obvious things like moving back colossi, fungaling, force fielding and so on. It just seems so angled.
And seriously, trying to make it a negative thing that Protoss actually might be able to do something to make it a bit easier to handle the 111, I actually almost started to think that you were trolling by that point.
every race has to worry about how they engage thats like counter intrutive. The only concept in sc2 is getting the concave or spread or angle. Thats so basic and boring. Sc2 needs more dynamically play where they need to PREPARE for the battle such as destorying spider mines to get to that position. Not just get to the position untested. It just too dam easy and straight forward. Once you hit a certain skill these actions don't require that much apm or concentration. I hardly ever think about this stuff when I play I just DO it it becomes inbrained and muscle memory cuz its just so easy to pull off. On top of that force fields deny your micro so you have less micro during the battle to worry about and again makes it too nooby friendly.
Terran:
1) Concave Positioning
2) Ghost EMP
3) Studder Step Bio
4) Studder Step Vikings
Protoss:
1) Concave Positioning
2) Storm
3) A move
4) Blink
Lets break this down. Concave is in both races so no explaination there. Storm is instant and EMP somewhat its still projectile so you have to aim slightly ahead of the target if its moving. Ok not that much more to think about but just slightly. Studder stepping the bio and viking I guess we both have to agree that is the beef of your APM while engaging as T. While P doesn't really needa studder step other than blink and move colosus back and forth but that isn't the same as studder steping. Studder steping requires you to focus moving back and forth during that second while for example moving colossus back and forth is something you can do in one click. Same with blink its a cast and forget spell. Once casted there is no going back or avoidance. And even that P doesn't really needa blink micro that hard until their zealtos are dead so in the first couple seconds of the battle P only needs to blink forward and target the vikings which is easily done with the shift key. T doesn't have an easy way to shift our studder steping while moving our ghosts and vikings back and forth. The APM required during battles much much more needed for the T.
EMP vs storming. Protoss has the colosus which has the largest range comapred to T bio. So ghost can be sniped by them if pushed to far while the templars have an easier time being defended by EMPs, just hide behind the colossus. At higher levels if the battle is engaged slowly by poking with the colosus and storming and blinking the vikings it just starts this slow grind. On the otherhand T has to keep micro dancing with viking and ghsots to get a few shots off. It forces the T to have to engage to break it or the toss will this do sort of thing to you. This is from my experience playing on Korean.
The other races doesn't need to spread and studder step like T has to it requries more actions to do this while things like fungal and force fielding can be pulled easily. A move then fungal. Thats the basic actions no studder steping involved. No preparness for engagement other than surrounding. No need to spread or target fire important units. Boring.
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Saying that P/Z can just a move is laughable...why don't you try offracing, just worry about maxing out and then a-move and see what happens.
You're entitled to your opinion but it's all to clear that you're heavily T biased.
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On October 24 2011 07:01 DystopiaX wrote:
Saying that P/Z can just a move is laughable...why don't you try offracing, just worry about maxing out and then a-move and see what happens.
You're entitled to your opinion but it's all to clear that you're heavily T biased.
GIve me a counter argument wtf is this instead of saying I don't understand the other races. I know quite a lot of the other race even tho I don't play them. But thats not the point whether a person understands or not I stated my points where is yours.
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EPT
