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Oh man that is so dodgy.
This is why you need to network and do a bit of research if you are going out on your own.
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Alot of graphic artists have a tendency to sell themselves short and being pushed around easily.. This in effect creates a snowball effect that ends up making it hard for anyone to make a decent living doing this shit.
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Hong Kong9183 Posts
That infographic is pretty useful for more than just designers I think. I've been considering getting more into photography as a side job, and part of that has been just researching how people run their business and stuff.
I just wish it was an image instead of text, heh.
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100 is ridiculously low, but I feel like this is just how business works. You lowball with the intention of haggling, especially if it's a freelancer. To do otherwise is just stupid business practice. As big name like Akiman apparently is (I've never heard of him), he should have standard prices, so I can understand why $100 is insulting, but I still at least understand why the companies do this.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 14:58 Emporio wrote:
100 is ridiculously low, but I feel like this is just how business works. You lowball with the intention of haggling, especially if it's a freelancer. To do otherwise is just stupid business practice. As big name like Akiman apparently is (I've never heard of him), he should have standard prices, so I can understand why $100 is insulting, but I still at least understand why the companies do this.
I totally hear ya.
Japan as a whole is unprofessional in its business practices (even the multinationals!!), so I'm unsurprising to me that this sort of thing happens often there.
The individual designer (especially those who are starting out) is kind of at the mercy of "the businesses" though, since how are they supposed to get their basis for how much their work is worth?  It's a pity.
Kind of unrelated, but do you know how poorly animators get paid in Japan? Because they're paid "per sheet", some animators' hourly wage comes out to less than $3/hour!! (and that's accounting for the Strong Yen!!) Outrageous!!
(btw I didn't know who this guy was either, but looking at his work, I've DEFINITELY enjoyed his creations on more than one occasion!)
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 14:54 Coagulation wrote:
Alot of graphic artists have a tendency to sell themselves short and being pushed around easily.. This in effect creates a snowball effect that ends up making it hard for anyone to make a decent living doing this shit.
Absolutely
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On October 20 2011 15:10 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 14:58 Emporio wrote:
100 is ridiculously low, but I feel like this is just how business works. You lowball with the intention of haggling, especially if it's a freelancer. To do otherwise is just stupid business practice. As big name like Akiman apparently is (I've never heard of him), he should have standard prices, so I can understand why $100 is insulting, but I still at least understand why the companies do this. I totally hear ya. Japan as a whole is unprofessional in its business practices (even the multinationals!!), so I'm unsurprising to me that this sort of thing happens often there. The individual designer (especially those who are starting out) is kind of at the mercy of "the businesses" though, since how are they supposed to get their basis for how much their work is worth? It's a pity. Kind of unrelated, but do you know how poorly animators get paid in Japan? Because they're paid "per sheet", some animators' hourly wage comes out to less than $3/hour!! (and that's accounting for the Strong Yen!!) Outrageous!! (btw I didn't know who this guy was either, but looking at his work, I've DEFINITELY enjoyed his creations on more than one occasion!)
Even then they still get outsourced to the Philippines AFAIK, where wages are even lower.
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Sad truth here. I'm in a graphic art school myself right now and they beat it into our heads not to get short-changed on free-lance projects. A lot of companies want to pay you in peanuts under the argument that it'd be a nice addition to your portfolio or that the company name would look good on your resume. It's all BS, but people get fooled into it time and time again.
A few years ago there was a guy at my school's career fair interested in hiring someone to create and manage some fledgling company's website. Swag Stop or some ridiculous name like that, it was a clothing store. He offered me $100 for the completion of the website and $25 a week to manage it. I thought he was joking so I mentioned that since I'm not majoring in web design I might consider the position for 10x that amount. That's when I realized he was serious, and he didn't appreciate my input at all. I'm not sure if anyone accepted his offer, but it wouldn't surprise me.
He was probably the worst example, but a lot of people seem to use college career fairs as a way to hire naive kids for a fraction of what they deserve for the work they put in. It's like being in the Wild West and everyone's trying to stab you in the back
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 15:13 Ciryandor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 15:10 thedeadhaji wrote:On October 20 2011 14:58 Emporio wrote:
100 is ridiculously low, but I feel like this is just how business works. You lowball with the intention of haggling, especially if it's a freelancer. To do otherwise is just stupid business practice. As big name like Akiman apparently is (I've never heard of him), he should have standard prices, so I can understand why $100 is insulting, but I still at least understand why the companies do this. I totally hear ya. Japan as a whole is unprofessional in its business practices (even the multinationals!!), so I'm unsurprising to me that this sort of thing happens often there. The individual designer (especially those who are starting out) is kind of at the mercy of "the businesses" though, since how are they supposed to get their basis for how much their work is worth? It's a pity. Kind of unrelated, but do you know how poorly animators get paid in Japan? Because they're paid "per sheet", some animators' hourly wage comes out to less than $3/hour!! (and that's accounting for the Strong Yen!!) Outrageous!! (btw I didn't know who this guy was either, but looking at his work, I've DEFINITELY enjoyed his creations on more than one occasion!) Even then they still get outsourced to the Philippines AFAIK, where wages are even lower.
and quality suffers.
And I become a Sad Panda.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 15:20 Sc2Requiem wrote:
Sad truth here. I'm in a graphic art school myself right now and they beat it into our heads not to get short-changed on free-lance projects. A lot of companies want to pay you in peanuts under the argument that it'd be a nice addition to your portfolio or that the company name would look good on your resume. It's all BS, but people get fooled into it time and time again.
A few years ago there was a guy at my school's career fair interested in hiring someone to create and manage some fledgling company's website. Swag Stop or some ridiculous name like that, it was a clothing store. He offered me $100 for the completion of the website and $25 a week to manage it. I thought he was joking so I mentioned that since I'm not majoring in web design I might consider the position for 10x that amount. That's when I realized he was serious, and he didn't appreciate my input at all. I'm not sure if anyone accepted his offer, but it wouldn't surprise me.
He was probably the worst example, but a lot of people seem to use college career fairs as a way to hire naive kids for a fraction of what they deserve for the work they put in. It's like being in the Wild West and everyone's trying to stab you in the back
This also reminds me of an article I read on Hacker News, which was titled along the lines of "Never accept an internship where you don't get paid, ever"
Companies taking advantage of semi-desperate college kids... same book, different chapter.
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On October 20 2011 15:36 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 15:13 Ciryandor wrote:On October 20 2011 15:10 thedeadhaji wrote:On October 20 2011 14:58 Emporio wrote:
100 is ridiculously low, but I feel like this is just how business works. You lowball with the intention of haggling, especially if it's a freelancer. To do otherwise is just stupid business practice. As big name like Akiman apparently is (I've never heard of him), he should have standard prices, so I can understand why $100 is insulting, but I still at least understand why the companies do this. I totally hear ya. Japan as a whole is unprofessional in its business practices (even the multinationals!!), so I'm unsurprising to me that this sort of thing happens often there. The individual designer (especially those who are starting out) is kind of at the mercy of "the businesses" though, since how are they supposed to get their basis for how much their work is worth? It's a pity. Kind of unrelated, but do you know how poorly animators get paid in Japan? Because they're paid "per sheet", some animators' hourly wage comes out to less than $3/hour!! (and that's accounting for the Strong Yen!!) Outrageous!! (btw I didn't know who this guy was either, but looking at his work, I've DEFINITELY enjoyed his creations on more than one occasion!) Even then they still get outsourced to the Philippines AFAIK, where wages are even lower. and quality suffers. And I become a Sad Panda.
So do I, because good artists there are pushed too hard for them to get their work done. I wouldn't even mention the subtle artistic changes that are the result of this outsourcing.
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I'm not a professional artist or graphic designer but I did a lot of stuff for school clubs and such. Of course you rarely if ever get paid for that stuff cause it's just a favour for a buddy and such. It was definitely good practice and fun for a beginner like myself.
That being said, I STILL came out of the whole experience knowing that you must VERY wary of doing stuff for free, no matter who it is. You can easily pour in 10 hours into a project (which is a lot when you're doing this in your free time and also being a full time student) and people just blow you off. Hardly a thanks. Maybe they use it, maybe they don't. You also get a lot of "Oh, yeah uh do whatever it's all good!" when you ask for more details on a project. Then you come up with something and get shot down cause it's not what they wanted.
There's just a big misconception out there that designing is quick and easy.
I just started another degree in a design field (undergrad was in science)
Balls.
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Yes it is quick and easy. And it's also effortless. It's all natural talent, no? You're either born an artist or not. Kind of greedy trying to exploit that or rather the ones without it. Shame on you.
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This thread also reminded me about this from the TL graphic designer recruitment thread:
On September 20 2011 08:34 disciple wrote:
least appreciated staff position on TL imo
I don't know if TL graphic designers get any compensation other than some satisfaction. Maybe they do?
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I don't know if you can really use Mel Kishida's work as an example of random internet character design.
Unless that's someone else drawing outfits for Totori?
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I have a friend who is a pixel artist for a video game design company (nowadays mostly cell phone/android/ios games) and even as a big gamer she refused to do those contests for anything like E3 vip passes, sold out blizzcon tickets, etc. and says that people who are professional artists should never do those contests as it just devalues all of their work. I completely agree, and its a damn shame when there are those sort of contests. Design this tshirt and win 50 dollars and a copy of the tshirt! its like uhhh thats NOTHING for the actual value that the contest runner gets for that design
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 16:33 Skipper240 wrote:
I don't know if you can really use Mel Kishida's work as an example of random internet character design.
Unless that's someone else drawing outfits for Totori?
oh that was cited to explain what "character design" entails (ie not just one illustration)
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 20 2011 16:33 Zlasher wrote:I have a friend who is a pixel artist for a video game design company (nowadays mostly cell phone/android/ios games) and even as a big gamer she refused to do those contests for anything like E3 vip passes, sold out blizzcon tickets, etc. and says that people who are professional artists should never do those contests as it just devalues all of their work. I completely agree, and its a damn shame when there are those sort of contests. Design this tshirt and win 50 dollars and a copy of the tshirt! its like uhhh thats NOTHING for the actual value that the contest runner gets for that design
Man you're absolutely right. There's SO much of that going on.
Maybe the more honorable thing to do is to revenue share with the designer who wins those contests?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/dqnplus/imgs/8/4/849db540.jpg)
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