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Pianists Name Rachmaninov Greatest Pianist - Page 2

Blogs > forelmashi
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Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
October 02 2011 05:01 GMT
#21


My favorite Rachmaninoff piece.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
October 02 2011 05:25 GMT
#22
On October 02 2011 13:17 phosphorylation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 12:55 Empyrean wrote:
I'd argue that technical skill nowadays is higher than it was back then.

if you are talkign about playing every note correctly, sure i agree (although Michelangeli really would own the modern pianists in that aspect too) but that's not something the old masters sought anyway. if we are talking about sheer virtuosity, speed, and fury (which is what matters way more imo), cziffra, barere, hofman, and richter would shame lang lang, kissin, and yuja wang.


That's just objectively untrue. Modern day pianists are simply technically better, both in playing all the notes and playing them at consistent speeds.

As for the subjective portion, expression, feeling, and virtuosity should, IMO, always follow on the basis of all the notes being correct first. Only when you play everything correctly do you get the right to actually express your individual views on the piece. I wouldn't go as far to say that the modern technical virtuosos shame any of the old pianists, but overall, they just are simply better, and I think they bring just as unique offerings and insights to the music.
TranslatorBaa!
CosmicAC
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States238 Posts
October 02 2011 05:26 GMT
#23
I'd say Michelangeli is also a phenomenal pianist who deserves a little more popularity (although he is quite famous).
To follow the path: look to the master, follow the master, walk with the master, see through the master, become the master.
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 05:28:37
October 02 2011 05:27 GMT
#24
.... no comment

but if you think most of these old masters couldn't play "all the notes and play them at consistent speeds" if they wanted to , you are doing them grave injustice

and your second paragraph is just so ... wrong
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 05:46:46
October 02 2011 05:39 GMT
#25
to add to my previous post...



lang lang, EAT this (although his admittedly consummate DJ is probably his biggest life achievement)
keep also in mind, the modern pianists' recordings are always made "perfect" through modern editing



no modern pianist can match this perf either..

you want ultimate technical perfection? here..




meanwhile in lang lang's studio...




Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
October 02 2011 05:47 GMT
#26
On October 02 2011 14:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 13:17 phosphorylation wrote:
On October 02 2011 12:55 Empyrean wrote:
I'd argue that technical skill nowadays is higher than it was back then.

if you are talkign about playing every note correctly, sure i agree (although Michelangeli really would own the modern pianists in that aspect too) but that's not something the old masters sought anyway. if we are talking about sheer virtuosity, speed, and fury (which is what matters way more imo), cziffra, barere, hofman, and richter would shame lang lang, kissin, and yuja wang.


That's just objectively untrue. Modern day pianists are simply technically better, both in playing all the notes and playing them at consistent speeds.

As for the subjective portion, expression, feeling, and virtuosity should, IMO, always follow on the basis of all the notes being correct first. Only when you play everything correctly do you get the right to actually express your individual views on the piece. I wouldn't go as far to say that the modern technical virtuosos shame any of the old pianists, but overall, they just are simply better, and I think they bring just as unique offerings and insights to the music.


I'm sorry but if this is the case then you have your priorities thoroughly mixed up. To play a few wrong notes is forgivable, and in many concert pieces is unavoidable without studio editing. What is more important is playing with emotion.

Also what exactly is your definition of a 'modern day pianist'? No one is arguing that the pianists of the 20th-21th century are, as a whole, leagues better than the ones in say Beethoven's time. However you seem to be implying that today's pianists have better virtuosity than 20th century pianists like Richter, Gilels, Arrau, Horowitz, Rachmaninoff...if that's the case then I would suggest listening to some recordings. I'm not saying that pianists like Lang Lang, Yundi Li, and Kissin have bad technique. They don't. But they are in no way superior technique-wise to the pianists back then.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17083 Posts
October 02 2011 05:50 GMT
#27
On October 02 2011 14:47 writer22816 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 14:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On October 02 2011 13:17 phosphorylation wrote:
On October 02 2011 12:55 Empyrean wrote:
I'd argue that technical skill nowadays is higher than it was back then.

if you are talkign about playing every note correctly, sure i agree (although Michelangeli really would own the modern pianists in that aspect too) but that's not something the old masters sought anyway. if we are talking about sheer virtuosity, speed, and fury (which is what matters way more imo), cziffra, barere, hofman, and richter would shame lang lang, kissin, and yuja wang.


That's just objectively untrue. Modern day pianists are simply technically better, both in playing all the notes and playing them at consistent speeds.

As for the subjective portion, expression, feeling, and virtuosity should, IMO, always follow on the basis of all the notes being correct first. Only when you play everything correctly do you get the right to actually express your individual views on the piece. I wouldn't go as far to say that the modern technical virtuosos shame any of the old pianists, but overall, they just are simply better, and I think they bring just as unique offerings and insights to the music.


I'm sorry but if this is the case then you have your priorities thoroughly mixed up. To play a few wrong notes is forgivable, and in many concert pieces is unavoidable without studio editing. What is more important is playing with emotion.

Also what exactly is your definition of a 'modern day pianist'? No one is arguing that the pianists of the 20th-21th century are, as a whole, leagues better than the ones in say Beethoven's time. However you seem to be implying that today's pianists have better virtuosity than 20th century pianists like Richter, Gilels, Arrau, Horowitz, Rachmaninoff...if that's the case then I would suggest listening to some recordings. I'm not saying that pianists like Lang Lang, Yundi Li, and Kissin have bad technique. They don't. But they are in no way superior technique-wise to the pianists back then.


It could just be the preferences of the day; for example, I much prefer Horowitz's later recordings to his earlier recordings.
Moderator
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 05:54:58
October 02 2011 05:52 GMT
#28
I get a feeling that you just need to listen more and mature as a music listener. You are on the right track; I mean you could be doing a lot worse..

some of you might enjoy this zany website...

http://www.dasdc.net/forum/index.php

Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 05:56:11
October 02 2011 05:54 GMT
#29
On October 02 2011 14:47 writer22816 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 14:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On October 02 2011 13:17 phosphorylation wrote:
On October 02 2011 12:55 Empyrean wrote:
I'd argue that technical skill nowadays is higher than it was back then.

if you are talkign about playing every note correctly, sure i agree (although Michelangeli really would own the modern pianists in that aspect too) but that's not something the old masters sought anyway. if we are talking about sheer virtuosity, speed, and fury (which is what matters way more imo), cziffra, barere, hofman, and richter would shame lang lang, kissin, and yuja wang.


That's just objectively untrue. Modern day pianists are simply technically better, both in playing all the notes and playing them at consistent speeds.

As for the subjective portion, expression, feeling, and virtuosity should, IMO, always follow on the basis of all the notes being correct first. Only when you play everything correctly do you get the right to actually express your individual views on the piece. I wouldn't go as far to say that the modern technical virtuosos shame any of the old pianists, but overall, they just are simply better, and I think they bring just as unique offerings and insights to the music.


I'm sorry but if this is the case then you have your priorities thoroughly mixed up. To play a few wrong notes is forgivable, and in many concert pieces is unavoidable without studio editing. What is more important is playing with emotion.

Also what exactly is your definition of a 'modern day pianist'? No one is arguing that the pianists of the 20th-21th century are, as a whole, leagues better than the ones in say Beethoven's time. However you seem to be implying that today's pianists have better virtuosity than 20th century pianists like Richter, Gilels, Arrau, Horowitz, Rachmaninoff...if that's the case then I would suggest listening to some recordings. I'm not saying that pianists like Lang Lang, Yundi Li, and Kissin have bad technique. They don't. But they are in no way superior technique-wise to the pianists back then.


For what it's worth, I prefer everyone of those old pianists except Rachmaninoff to Lang Lang and Kissin. Wang Yuja I think has great potential, and I'm excited, but I will withold judgment until I hear more.

I just think it's unfair to immediately discredit people for not having "emotion" and "expressiveness" and "worse virtuosity," whatever that means. Those terms are just so vague and differ for every listener that I think it's pointless to use them as a judge of how "good" a pianist is.

And I do stand by the statement that pure technically, the modern day pianists are better. Perhaps I miscommunicated that I don't think missing a few notes is some grave offense. I just think that technical skill shouldn't be discounted so quickly.

On October 02 2011 14:52 phosphorylation wrote:
I get a feeling that you just need to listen more and mature as a music listener. You are on the right track; I mean you could be doing a lot worse..


This is so ridiuclously elitist and condescending I don't even know what to say.
TranslatorBaa!
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:02:15
October 02 2011 05:57 GMT
#30
I actually meant it in a friendly way, although I see that it could be technically "condescending." I get a sense that you are relatively new (or casual) listener. I think upon being exposed to more recordings, you might change your views on how correct notes take precedence over other factors.. You could be doing a lot worse, since at least unlike 99 percent of other people, you are paying attention to classical piano music.


BTW, "playing with emotion" is the wrong way to describe things imo (referring to writer's post above). Playing with great understanding of music, playing with original, strong interpretation, etc are what I am looking for in pianists. I guess you can sum these things as "making music."
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:04:31
October 02 2011 06:03 GMT
#31
On October 02 2011 14:57 phosphorylation wrote:

BTW, "playing with emotion" is the wrong way to describe things imo. Playing with great understanding of music, playing with original, strong interpretation, etc are what I am looking for in pianists. I guess you can sum these things as "making music."


It doesn't matter what you call it, the point remains that these are such vague qualifiers and can vary greatly between people. Some people call Gould's playing making music, others think it's a desecration - it's certainly eccentric for many pieces. Beethoven is my forte, so I'll use examples of Gould's Moonlight and Appasionata (perhaps a bad example since he intended it ironically, but nonetheless it has fans) - unarguably original interpretations, and I can certainly understand why people can not like them. Technically very proficient, but again, the "making music" part is just way too subjective to be a good way to compare the "goodness" of different pianists.

As for new/casual listening - you make it sound like if someone listens for 50 years, they'll automatically change their tastes and preferences to the exact same set of performers. If that's the case, why should new pianists even bother trying? Not to mention that "mature" listeners still have different preferences.
TranslatorBaa!
viletomato
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada277 Posts
October 02 2011 06:13 GMT
#32
Um wouldn't Chopin be up there in that list? I'm a noob at this music thing so forgive me if I am missing something here.
Tomatoes, the king of fruits
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:15:54
October 02 2011 06:13 GMT
#33
On October 02 2011 15:13 viletomato wrote:
Um wouldn't Chopin be up there in that list? I'm a noob at this music thing so forgive me if I am missing something here.


the OP is talking about pianists, not composers. Chopin is definitely one of the greatest composers for the piano ("the only good composer for the piano", according to Horowitz) but no one alive today has heard Chopin play
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:14:33
October 02 2011 06:14 GMT
#34
On October 02 2011 15:13 viletomato wrote:
Um wouldn't Chopin be up there in that list? I'm a noob at this music thing so forgive me if I am missing something here.


Performers, not composers. Chopin made no recordings as recordings didn't exist back then, so we don't know how good of a pianist he was beyond hearsay.
TranslatorBaa!
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:23:15
October 02 2011 06:17 GMT
#35
Of course, there always will be controversial performances even by the greats. But essentially what you are arguing is that if you strip away the sheer technical aspect of pianism, everyone is going to have different opinions and you can't really say who is better than whom.

That is akin to saying, if a 6-year old were equipped with technical painting skills as picasso, the kid's work would be just as good, objectively speaking. To further the analogy, that is like saying if a random guy off the street was given the same camera equipments as Ansel Adams and was taught all the technical skills (which isn't that hard to master), Adams could not be called a better photographer objectively.

I and most other connoisseurs agree that is complete bosh.

Referring to your second paragraph, I truly believe that if someone with at least average intelligence and a well-rounded exposure to the humanities put some effort to listening and studying music and pianism consistently for even 10 years, these people will generally share similar opinions about pianists eventually. That is, they will generally cherish the playing of the golden age pianists more than that of modern technicians. Of course, even among these people, they are going to have favorites and whatnot, but they are going to be mostly in agreement about what constitutes good music-making.

In fact, the website I linked to (dasdc.net) is one such community (consisting mostly of very experienced pianists and music collectors) that seem to largely share similar philosophies in piano playing and music-making. This is despite the members being from all over the world, and hence, having learnt piano under different "schools." russian, american, french, and whatnot.
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
October 02 2011 06:23 GMT
#36
On October 02 2011 15:17 phosphorylation wrote:
In fact, the website I linked to (dasdc.net) is one such community (consisting mostly of very experienced pianists and music collectors) that seem to largely share similar philosophies in piano playing and music-making. This is despite the members being from all over the world, and hence, having learnt piano under different "schools."


LOL that is a website for experienced pianists and music collectors? Why is the language so fucked up -_-
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
October 02 2011 06:24 GMT
#37
On October 02 2011 15:17 phosphorylation wrote:
Of course, there always will be controversial performances even by the greats. But essentially what you are arguing is that if you strip away the sheer technical aspect of pianism, everyone is going to have different opinions and you can't really say who is better than whom.

That is akin to saying, if a 6-year old were equipped with technical painting skills as picasso, the kid's work would be just as good, objectively speaking. To further the analogy, that is like saying if a random guy off the street was given the same camera equipments as Ansel Adams and was taught all the technical skills (which isn't that hard to master), Adams could not be called a better photographer objectively.


Depends on how you want to think about it. If a random 6 year old painted Guernica, how would you judge it? Do you discredit it because the 6 year old painted it? If so, are you really attaching value to the art or to the artist? I don't care who the performer is, if you really are objectively evaluating it, if something is identical to a masterpiece created by a recognized great, then it is also great. Doesn't matter who is behind the art, it's the art itself that matters. If your random guy off the street took the exact same picture that Adams would've taken, then yes, Adams could not be called a better photographer.

I and most other connoisseurs agree that is complete bosh.


Lol.


Referring to your second paragraph, I truly believe that if someone with at least average intelligence and a well-rounded exposure to the humanities put some effort to listening and studying music and pianism consistently for even 10 years, these people will generally share similar opinions about pianists eventually. That is, they will generally cherish the playing of the golden age pianists more than the modern technicians. Of course, even among these people, they are going to have favorites and whatnot, but they are going to be mostly in agreement about what constitutes good music-making.

In fact, the website I linked to (dasdc.net) is one such community (consisting mostly of very experienced pianists and music collectors) that seem to largely share similar philosophies in piano playing and music-making. This is despite the members being from all over the world, and hence, having learnt piano under different "schools."


Or your website is simply a giant circle jerk of people with similar opinions, and people with dissenting opinions either turn themselves away, or just find no point trying to talk to a group of people who already have firmly established beliefs. If someone who thought WC3 > SC/SC2 came on TL, he would either be driven away or would just not find interest on this forum at all. It's just a biased sample.
TranslatorBaa!
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
October 02 2011 06:25 GMT
#38
well it is sort of a guise

basically, it is to weed out people not in the right "wavelength", who take things too seriously and are bit full of themselves.
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:28:07
October 02 2011 06:26 GMT
#39
On October 02 2011 15:25 phosphorylation wrote:
well it is sort of a guise

basically, it is to weed out people not in the right "wavelength", who take things too seriously and are bit full of themselves.


That doesn't sound elitist at all.

In fact you admit you're just trying to drive out people who don't agree with you lol.
TranslatorBaa!
phosphorylation
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 06:48:11
October 02 2011 06:41 GMT
#40
On October 02 2011 15:24 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:17 phosphorylation wrote:
Of course, there always will be controversial performances even by the greats. But essentially what you are arguing is that if you strip away the sheer technical aspect of pianism, everyone is going to have different opinions and you can't really say who is better than whom.

That is akin to saying, if a 6-year old were equipped with technical painting skills as picasso, the kid's work would be just as good, objectively speaking. To further the analogy, that is like saying if a random guy off the street was given the same camera equipments as Ansel Adams and was taught all the technical skills (which isn't that hard to master), Adams could not be called a better photographer objectively.


Depends on how you want to think about it. If a random 6 year old painted Guernica, how would you judge it? Do you discredit it because the 6 year old painted it? If so, are you really attaching value to the art or to the artist? I don't care who the performer is, if you really are objectively evaluating it, if something is identical to a masterpiece created by a recognized great, then it is also great. Doesn't matter who is behind the art, it's the art itself that matters. If your random guy off the street took the exact same picture that Adams would've taken, then yes, Adams could not be called a better photographer.

Show nested quote +
I and most other connoisseurs agree that is complete bosh.


Lol.

Show nested quote +

Referring to your second paragraph, I truly believe that if someone with at least average intelligence and a well-rounded exposure to the humanities put some effort to listening and studying music and pianism consistently for even 10 years, these people will generally share similar opinions about pianists eventually. That is, they will generally cherish the playing of the golden age pianists more than the modern technicians. Of course, even among these people, they are going to have favorites and whatnot, but they are going to be mostly in agreement about what constitutes good music-making.

In fact, the website I linked to (dasdc.net) is one such community (consisting mostly of very experienced pianists and music collectors) that seem to largely share similar philosophies in piano playing and music-making. This is despite the members being from all over the world, and hence, having learnt piano under different "schools."


Or your website is simply a giant circle jerk of people with similar opinions, and people with dissenting opinions either turn themselves away, or just find no point trying to talk to a group of people who already have firmly established beliefs. If someone who thought WC3 > SC/SC2 came on TL, he would either be driven away or would just not find interest on this forum at all. It's just a biased sample.


you are really misunderstanding my post there.

my argument is that the 6 year old will never paint anything like guernica, even if it has the technical skills to physically recreate it with a brush.

likewise, lang lang has all the technical facility to play anything and in any way he wants to, but he will never create music like cortot or oborin can.



regarding the website: there are much bigger piano forums online (pianostreet, pianoworld) but the most elite of the pianists and collectors who have an online presence (pretty rare, i must say) have actually mostly migrated to this forum. i'm not sure how i can actually prove this since all of them use handles, but let's just say many of our members have actually participated in competitions like THE chopin competition at warsaw while the same cannot be said for the other much larger forums (they are mostly filled with relative beginners of the instrument, no offense meant). More importantly, the members come from wildly varied backgrounds and different music schools. As far as I know, this is only the forum with such demographic. It is far from a "giant circle jerk of people with similar opinions"

oh and libetta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Libetta) is a member of the forum, albeit an infrequent poster.
Buy prints of my photographs at Redbubble -> http://www.redbubble.com/people/shoenberg3
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