• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:39
CEST 03:39
KST 10:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic3Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO8 - Group A RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
NA Team League 6/8/2025 [ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Wizard Hilton Cybertech Crypto Recovery: Proven Re
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 26194 users

TL, let's talk MMORPGs - Page 3

Blogs > Clbull
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
September 26 2011 05:50 GMT
#41
On September 26 2011 14:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 13:26 ZoW wrote:
I smell another TL RO endeavor brewing

too bad it dies 3 months after we start every time lol


Can you blame them? It's hard to come out on top in that game :x


we never even attempted to woe though.

If someone wants to lead on a new server i'll be all for it, though I'm actually still semi-playing with the guild i joined after lumina TL died
the courage to be a lazy bum
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
September 26 2011 05:52 GMT
#42
On September 26 2011 14:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 13:26 ZoW wrote:
I smell another TL RO endeavor brewing

too bad it dies 3 months after we start every time lol


Can you blame them? It's hard to come out on top in that game :x


If people want to play seriously on a legal server, I can hook people up to RO in the Philippines, it's much cheaper playing there than iRO, and I can get you access because I know the guys running it. If people want to compete as a big group, then I may be able to arrange something; having a new group of people with minimal ties and agenda to compete with would be a breath of fresh air for some parties.

If you want further details on this, just PM me.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
Vestrel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada271 Posts
September 26 2011 06:09 GMT
#43
My first MMORPG was also RuneScape. xD

When I was first introduced to Ragnarok it changed my life. There's something about it that will let it keep a special place in my heart <3 Even though I never did any serious MvPing or WoE. Dueling with my friends was fun but I didn't like the PvP in RO that much.

Then I really got into Guild Wars and now i'll never look at typical grinding MMORPGs the same way. I wish the PvP scene weren't so elitist and terrible, though.

Those were the two MMORPGs I spent the most time on. I tried other games for varying amounts of time from 30 minutes to a few months, including MapleStory (couldn't ever make it past level 15, the grind was so bad), Runes of Magic, Eden Eternal, Aion, Perfect World, the list goes on. None of them could get me to stay for very long :/

Give me my Guild Wars 2!
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
September 26 2011 07:12 GMT
#44
Mabinogi was awesome when I was younger :3 had so many gosu hyungs to leech off of too. Vindictus (Mabinogi Heroes in Korea) is said to be pretty good, but I haven't gotten around playing it lol
Writerptrk
kenkou
Profile Joined September 2010
United States235 Posts
September 26 2011 07:28 GMT
#45
On September 26 2011 10:18 Clbull wrote:
Bonus Part 2 - Final Fantasy XI:

I only briefly played this game. I think it could have been great if the graphics weren't so dull and almost borderline grayscale, if the grind wasn't astronomically big and if the travelling time wasn't so great (It took around 25 minutes to run across South Gustaberg.)



On September 26 2011 10:40 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 10:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Where the fuck is Ragnarok Online?

Seriously, how can you miss that? It's great animations, absolutely gorgeous and memorable soundtrack, funny creatures and decent quests.

A bit of a grind? Yeah, I guess. But the PVP was awesome [WOE], the different classes were a nice twist (dancer, monk, etc.) tier classes.

My God, the card system and classic leveling?

Classic. I'd go back in an instant.

I never played it but I heard about it. I did play a few other MMORPGs I didn't mention like:
  • PristonTale - This was before WoW actually, but me and my bro stopped playing it when it turned pay to play.
  • Knight Online - It was okay. There wasn't really much point to it and it was confusing. The ironic thing is that when I was playing, it was supposedly a F2P game but you couldn't get on a server because it was over capacity without subscribing.
  • Fly For Fun - Felt kinda dull. Level 15 turned from spamming 1 ability to spamming 2 abilities, and level 20 is like HORRAY I CAN FINALLY FLY....and 5 minutes later getting bored because there's no content apart from grinding mobs that did nothing but attack you.
  • Dofus/Wakfu - The most boring game I had ever played, and yes, I am listing them both as one game because they are basically the same near identical game.
  • Warhammer Online - I played during the Endless Trial. Jesus Christ that game was near death... There was virtually nobody online


I'm a bit offended, because Dofus and FFXI were my prime MMO's I played throughout the years.

I have to say, my MMO playing experience is a bit different than everyone else. When everyone was playing WoW in 2005-2006, I was playing Dofus. It was my first hardcore MMO I played. I started during the last few days of international beta on the Rushu server, August of 2005. I was only a level 50 or so Sadida but I had to quit playing because I moved away November of 2005.

September 2006

I got back into the game, a new server called Rosal had come out. I made another Sadida (god I love that class), and I was in the top guild at the time (still is to this day), Heaven Knights. I was promoted to officer and I got all the way up to level 150, but I stopped playing for whatever reasons around March of 2007.

I don't remember why but I do remember coming back 3 months later, and not enjoying it as much, as all my friends have surpassed me in level. I eventually quit again for good.

During the summer period to the fall season of 2007 I was looking for a new MMO to play. I swear I played every single Free to Play MMO at that time. The two games that I did stick with for a bit were Ragnarok Online and Maplestory. I only played both for a month or so though.

December 23, 2007(yes I remember the date exactly)

I started playing Final Fantasy XI. I was rediculously late for the party, but the game TOOK me in. It was actually my first "3D" MMO I have played, so to me the graphics weren't bad at all. I mean, I played Dofus. The game was made in flash but the art was beautiful, and the same could be said for FFXI.

I purchased a used PS2 version of the original box set, that came with a HDD and such (the only reason I bought it) and I also purchased a new copy of the game. I also had to buy an adapter to connect the PS2 to the internet, and a USB keyboard. I had a very crappy computer at the time so this was my only way to play a "3D" game. The reasons I went through all these hurdles though was because I played the game wa~y back in 2003 at a friends house. He let me make a character and I leveled it up to 20. I have always wanted to play the game myself but I couldn't as I didn't have the computer nor the money to support it.

So I finally bought the game that i've wanted to play for years. I started out as a Red Mage, the same as when I made at my friends house years before. I powered through the levels and when I hit level 25, a random guy named Trollzarro PM'ed me and asked if I wanted to level. I didn't have access to the area yet, but he helped me through it and I eventually joined his linkshell(guild). Luckily he started right at the same time I started, so we were both very new to the game. It was fun to have another person accompany you through the levels of a game.

The linkshell consisted of us two and a series of people we either met online, or he knew in real life. Yzoho was the first guy, he was in the linkshell before me. As he quit, a Tarutaru named Minterlint joined. She was new to the game, so we helped her out a bunch. She vanished and a bunch of Trollzarro's real life friends started playing. We had a static party and leveled alot together.

Summer 2008
I took a break from the game and I started playing Warhammer Online. I had just built a new computer and it was the first game I installed. The game was fun, and it had alot of PvP which I haven't experienced since my Dofus days (FFXI had non-existent PvP). It was also my first "WoW"-esque game I played. It was fun for a bit, but I felt it got too easy and repetitive. Everything felt very handed to me as I got equipment from quests and lootboxes.

I returned to FFXI right after I stopped playing Warhammer Online, October 2008. This time, I played the game on my new computer. The game was even better than before when I played on PS2. Trollzarro's friends all quit and he decided to join another linkshell, Wayward. I tagged along with him. We would occasionally pop back into his old linkshell from time to time though because the game allowed you to have multiple linkshells (guilds) at once.

After joining Wayward in November 2008, Trollzarro was forced to quit the game. It was only a few weeks of joining the linkshell, and actually a few weeks since we both hit capped level 75. It was like he led me to his guild, and we both leveled together, and then again led me to Wayward. As he quit the game, I was not alone and I found a home in my new linkshell.

Everyone was pretty experienced in the game(some playing since release), but was very laid back and not too serious like other high end linkshells. Being the newly level 75 Paladin, this was a great linkshell to join, as they helped me do missions and quests, and they became very good friends of mine. As I started getting more experience at the capped level, I would within a few months become one of the officers of the linkshell.

The leaders decided we would start doing more hardcore stuff, and I setup our 1 week camping of the Charybdis NM (notorious monster). We did Promyvion and Aht Urhgan quests and we were a very good beginner endgame linkshell, as we did alot of entry level endgame stuff. A few of us would join a linkshell that was more focused on specific endgame(sky/dynamis) that would meet a few times a week, but our homes were in Wayward. For financial reasons, my adventures in Vana'diel came to a closing in March 2009. It was sad and I still to this day, have feelings of returning.

I went through another binge of free to play MMO's, as I had to satisfy my addiction(lol). From around Spring 2009 to the Fall, I played quit a few titles. The few I can name off the top of my head are Flyff, Holy Beast Online, and Alteil. Oh, I also played a tiny bit amount of BW, and I played on ICCUP for just a bit (I went like 2-26). I also did watch a few starleagues going on at the time.

October 2009

Right around when the fall swung around, there was the "new" MMO coming out, Aion. My linkshell leader from FFXI had actually switched over to Aion, and joined the beta. I decided not to join until a month after release. I enjoyed playing Aion, and I met alot of new friends. From October of 2009 till June 2010, I would play, and I reached the ranks of level 50 Chanter. I completed all the endgame stuff that was there, and I enjoyed my time doing this. But suddenly, there was nothing left to do.

Comparing Aion to FFXI, Aion just didn't have enough content to keep me in place. I had completed all the tasks in game, and the storyline just didn't feel compelling. The world was very small once you knew it and it had no more depth to it. There was no more mystery for me, and so, the game felt very boring to me.

July 2010 to now

I started playing League of Legends at the time, around July 2010, and I decided to quit Aion and MMO gaming for good. August of 2010 I would buy SC2 and since then, i've been hooked on SC2 and competitive gaming.

Its kind of funny that I played all these MMO titles, and have yet touched World of Warcraft. I kind of told myself that I would never play it, as i've heard it "spoils" you from playing other games. The game that spoiled me is FFXI, and I may return to MMO gaming if a game close to FFXI comes out. I've been hoping for FFXIV to be the case, but it seems there isn't much content in it yet. Maybe i'll pick it up 6 years from now.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 08:24:31
September 26 2011 08:10 GMT
#46
tl;dr
MMORPGs, in the modern way, are flawed. But it has been done right and Guild Wars 2, while having some flaws, could(but really just could, because it _could_ also turn out super bad..) be the next game that does it right. Also, Ragnarok Online owns, Dark of Camelot has one of the best PvP imho;
It's simple to make good MMORPGs by just thinking of them as something bigger than just a mixture of features.
+ Show Spoiler +


Whenever I don't play Starcraft 2, I probably play any MMORPG I can find.

Here's a list of my favourites of all time with a short explanation as this is not my blog. Just a bit of background information about my experiences.

- Ragnarok Online. Played since late alpha, early beta. Was my first MMO ever and my first "real game" on the computer (got into it through my brother.). I also got my girlfriend into playing it and this is how I made her a gaming nerd.
- Ultima Online. Do I have to explain this?
- Dark Age of Camelot; since my brother stopped playing Ragnarok Online and I hadn't have internet access on my computer I pretty much had to play that. But I enjoyed it as f****. It was so good and it was also the first game where I encountered PvP.
- Not an MMORPG, but CORPG, was Guild Wars. It was the first game where I played PvP really really hardcore, before that I was the PvE-Grind guy(and I still am.)
- WoW. Yea, I have to admit that I have a WoW phase. It lasted only 3 months and was mostly due to my friends that wanted to play it. After 3 months I said "Guys, it's lame. I go back to play Ragnarok Online."
- Aion. It lasted 1 months, korean version was fun but asa it came to EU/NA patches began to suck.
- I also tried any other MMORPG that is out there including Rift, Age of Conan, Everquest etc(really everything including most of the F2P games.). I'm a hardcore gamer and I'm also a hardcore MMORPG fan. But most of these games suck so I never played for a long time.

And so I did, every few months or so I go back to play on my old Ragnarok Account. What can I say, that game is hella fun. I sometimes play other games again, too. But Ragnarok Online is definitely the one I play most often, just because it's so easy to get into. Pick a build, play it. Done.

Okay, now that you have enough background to know where I come from, I want to answer your questions.
What new MMORPGs are actually good?

Is my attitude towards MMORPGs not actually being a game and more of an overscheduled timesink accurate?

I'd like to answer the second one first.

Yes, every MMORPG is a grind. Face it: The tasks you do in an MMORPG, you do them all over again everytime. You complete a quest, get a new one, kill monsters, complete a quest, get a new one etc etc. Sometimes you even don't get a quest.
But after all it is all about killing monsters and doing other stuff like crafting or PvP.

Most people say "Grinding sucks, I want a good MMORPG without grinding"
This is a common misunderstanding that most people have. Because without grinding, you wouldn't even have stuff to do in an MMORPG. Grinding, in this case, is nothing bad, but the only way to describe what you actually do.

Here's my small definition portion of grinding:
- Mob Grinding. It's my favourite. You get a couple of friends, pick your favourite classes and then go mash the f*** out of monsters for hours while listening to music/teamspeak or whatever. It can be sooo good, especially in games like Ragnarok Online. The doing-it-alone version of this can be fun, too, but I recommend to do it with friends. This is the oldschool way and is not really done in most new MMORPGs.
- Quest Grinding. This is most fun doing alone just because of the way it works. You get all your quests in a certain area and complete them one by one. Most likely you'll just have to kill mobs so you just grind some mobs, but never too much so that you just complete the quest and go. Until you don't have quests left or you're in a new area. This is the modern way of grind.
- Hybrid Grinding: While you still "grind your quests", you kill every mob you can find. If respawn timings are properly, you will eventually get twice the amount of xp while only losing like 50% of the time.

What I personally find unacceptable for an MMORPG is the "quest only" policy. In a game like World Of Warcraft, which basically has a good system, like the battlesystem where you really have to think about what you do(at least when you're using no add ons), there's always no fun into the grind. You just have to questgrind all day until you get into an instance and you cross your fingers you farmed enough to have good enough equipment to get into good groups.
Otherwise, you have to play with randoms. All. the. time.

Like you said, those games don't really support groups. In fact, they hurt you. If you get a group you can't do all the same quests, at least not if you didn't start at the same time and only play when the others are online, too. Otherwise, you'll always have to wait or do stuff more than one time and kill more monsters because you get less XP.

Another annoying point about most MMORPGs is that the PvP doesn't have a point. Like, for real; it's senseless. Stupid button mashing all over the place. If you take Lineage 2, PvP was a risk. It was a way to claim political power and to protect it. It was a way to settle issues and it was also a way of take advantage over something. It always had impact and a meaning if you killed somebody, at least once you get into an alliance. Which you did, otherwise you'd be dead.

Next, the crafting and economy. Whats the point of it? Imagine Aion. Lol, what senseless moneysink, it was like they wanted to support the gold farmers. Seriously? 5 Million for a CHANCE of getting a decent weapon? REALLY? I only have 2 Million, I need to farm 3 weeks for a CHANCE!?
And then I don't even get to sell it if I want to use it first!? REALLY?
Not only are bound items crap, because they kill the economy, but also no item duration kills crafting in it's very own way. Everyone can craft, everyone can make their stuff, why even bother leveling this shit up?
Oh wait, I see, you have to get rid of the MUDflation so we have to buy this shit. Okay.

I imagine most modern MMORPGs like this:
- "Hey let's make classes n stuff"
- "Oh and you should be able to make stuff to"
- "Oooh dude let's get giant bosses in there"
- "Hey let's make this shit, too."
And then they just randomly mix it together and call it Guild Wars 2. Lol. No, no offense.

Another point:
While I think Guild Wars 2 will be a decent grind game that I will love to play, I still think that there are some great flaws in it. And that is not only the problem with Guild Wars 2, but with most modern MMORPGs:

1. The battlesystem.
Pressing 1 button over and over again while sometimes pressing 3 and 4 is called a "complex battle system with great opportunities."
Let's just take Ragnarok Online, a game which got PvP patched into it because it wasn't the main point of the game at first.
It became a huge mechanic fest because you had not only to "macromanage" with your items, you also had decent micro abilities with equipment switching, skill placement and preparation.
Of course, it was limited, but I remember WoE sessions with battlemode activated where I came close to the APM I have to use in Starcraft 2 now.

Looking at Guild Wars 1(and 2), I barely see any movement in the fingers other than "123123123". It's the "1a" equivalent. There's no point in it, yet it is the most succesful way. People love it.

And what is worse:
It's the players' fault. WoW had a nice battlesystem overall but because people wanted to have it easy they created complex macros and addons to solve this. They basically made their starcraft mmo into a 1a-random-rts-mmo.

2. The partysystem
Okay, this point is actually a huge bonus for Guild Wars 2. The way they solved it is great, but I hope they won't f*** it up till the point it is abusable. For clarification: In Guild Wars 2 you just get into an event and get partied with everyone around in the event. Great move.

However, most MMORPGs punish you for making a group. You only get 40% of the xp, you have to do quests multiple times, sometimes you have to find completely different places; the loot gets rarer and worse etc.
Ragnarok Online REWARDS you for groups, grants you bonus loot and xp(or was it just xp? Can't remember eveerything <.>). Guild Wars 2 will also reward you for grouping, even force you to group. That is awesome.

3. The economy.
When you look at EVE online, it's an quite...exaggerated version of an economy & crafting. But in it's own system, it works.
Another great example for this is Ragnarok Online. The economy basically is a playable feature put into a class. The basic crafting, which is not that big but it works, is also included within the merchant class-tree. And they get nice toys like the humunculus or the carts. It's just a small thing but I remember spending hours n hours interacting with people while trading, crafting and babbling.

4. The freedom and exploring the world.
There is none. Exploring the world will end in just another texture.
Even if you take games like EVE or Fallen Earth the game has an end, and after playing it the first time it is boring. Everything is a one time thing and you won't even be that surpirsed, because what else than another tree could there be if you are in a forest? If there was a cave, you already probably heard of it as an instance or so.

This leads me to the last point I want to talk about before I end this, because I won't really change anything but I hope I could help some people.

5. Instances
I could say "Instances are another way of seperating people from each other", but Instances do even more. While they can create decent content that looks better than the usual grind, they usually give too high rewards. You are bascially forced to play them, even if you don't want to and just grind through the open world with all of your friends.
This is another point for Guild Wars 2(if it's true), as you are not forced into the instances.
Getting too high rewards from instances, that are usually BoP, kills player interaction even more and reduces it to a simple
"DPS high enough? Build? Ok go."
"Don't roll for twinks, main-only drops." Blargh.
I'm not a great instance fan, but I have to admit that sometimes, if done properly they are great fun.


Okay, without further babbling about the topic, I want to answer your question with a small list. Not ordered, they all have their place:

EVE Online and Fallen Earth for the great persistent worlds and economy/crafting, also freedom in what you want to do with your character. (Fallen Earth P2P, not F2P.) Ultima Online most likely belongs here, too.
Ragnarok Online, Dark Age of Camelot and Lineage 2. Even though I never really got into Lineage 2, it is great. Those 3 games have great PvE, great PvP(well ragnarok is a bit lame after a while but it has it's good sides.), reward groups all the way, are truly "massive" when it comes to multiplayer, don't make mistakes with the crafting and their economy and are just hella fun to play with your friends.

No, I'm not naming WoW here. If you could play WoW without all the add ons, macros and mixed in with more group-supporting ways to play, then 100times yes, but the current state is just too flawed.


Conclusion is the tl;dr.




On September 26 2011 11:33 Milkis wrote:
i wanna play RO again

but it's not the same anymore sniff

RO2 looks like a failure too

seriously finding an MMORPG just with a lot of expandable content that's just a lot of *fun* farming items is ridiculously hard nowadays

every mmo is like in beta testing forever and ever ;(

RO2 looks like a failure, but RO didn't really lost it's feeling. It's weird to adjust, but I still get into it really quick.

Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 10:52:41
September 26 2011 09:10 GMT
#47
On September 26 2011 17:10 KeksX wrote:
tl;dr
MMORPGs, in the modern way, are flawed. But it has been done right and Guild Wars 2, while having some flaws, could(but really just could, because it _could_ also turn out super bad..) be the next game that does it right. Also, Ragnarok Online owns, Dark of Camelot has one of the best PvP imho;
It's simple to make good MMORPGs by just thinking of them as something bigger than just a mixture of features.
+ Show Spoiler +


Whenever I don't play Starcraft 2, I probably play any MMORPG I can find.

Here's a list of my favourites of all time with a short explanation as this is not my blog. Just a bit of background information about my experiences.

- Ragnarok Online. Played since late alpha, early beta. Was my first MMO ever and my first "real game" on the computer (got into it through my brother.). I also got my girlfriend into playing it and this is how I made her a gaming nerd.
- Ultima Online. Do I have to explain this?
- Dark Age of Camelot; since my brother stopped playing Ragnarok Online and I hadn't have internet access on my computer I pretty much had to play that. But I enjoyed it as f****. It was so good and it was also the first game where I encountered PvP.
- Not an MMORPG, but CORPG, was Guild Wars. It was the first game where I played PvP really really hardcore, before that I was the PvE-Grind guy(and I still am.)
- WoW. Yea, I have to admit that I have a WoW phase. It lasted only 3 months and was mostly due to my friends that wanted to play it. After 3 months I said "Guys, it's lame. I go back to play Ragnarok Online."
- Aion. It lasted 1 months, korean version was fun but asa it came to EU/NA patches began to suck.
- I also tried any other MMORPG that is out there including Rift, Age of Conan, Everquest etc(really everything including most of the F2P games.). I'm a hardcore gamer and I'm also a hardcore MMORPG fan. But most of these games suck so I never played for a long time.

And so I did, every few months or so I go back to play on my old Ragnarok Account. What can I say, that game is hella fun. I sometimes play other games again, too. But Ragnarok Online is definitely the one I play most often, just because it's so easy to get into. Pick a build, play it. Done.

Okay, now that you have enough background to know where I come from, I want to answer your questions.
What new MMORPGs are actually good?

Is my attitude towards MMORPGs not actually being a game and more of an overscheduled timesink accurate?

I'd like to answer the second one first.

Yes, every MMORPG is a grind. Face it: The tasks you do in an MMORPG, you do them all over again everytime. You complete a quest, get a new one, kill monsters, complete a quest, get a new one etc etc. Sometimes you even don't get a quest.
But after all it is all about killing monsters and doing other stuff like crafting or PvP.

Most people say "Grinding sucks, I want a good MMORPG without grinding"
This is a common misunderstanding that most people have. Because without grinding, you wouldn't even have stuff to do in an MMORPG. Grinding, in this case, is nothing bad, but the only way to describe what you actually do.

Here's my small definition portion of grinding:
- Mob Grinding. It's my favourite. You get a couple of friends, pick your favourite classes and then go mash the f*** out of monsters for hours while listening to music/teamspeak or whatever. It can be sooo good, especially in games like Ragnarok Online. The doing-it-alone version of this can be fun, too, but I recommend to do it with friends. This is the oldschool way and is not really done in most new MMORPGs.
- Quest Grinding. This is most fun doing alone just because of the way it works. You get all your quests in a certain area and complete them one by one. Most likely you'll just have to kill mobs so you just grind some mobs, but never too much so that you just complete the quest and go. Until you don't have quests left or you're in a new area. This is the modern way of grind.
- Hybrid Grinding: While you still "grind your quests", you kill every mob you can find. If respawn timings are properly, you will eventually get twice the amount of xp while only losing like 50% of the time.

What I personally find unacceptable for an MMORPG is the "quest only" policy. In a game like World Of Warcraft, which basically has a good system, like the battlesystem where you really have to think about what you do(at least when you're using no add ons), there's always no fun into the grind. You just have to questgrind all day until you get into an instance and you cross your fingers you farmed enough to have good enough equipment to get into good groups.
Otherwise, you have to play with randoms. All. the. time.

Like you said, those games don't really support groups. In fact, they hurt you. If you get a group you can't do all the same quests, at least not if you didn't start at the same time and only play when the others are online, too. Otherwise, you'll always have to wait or do stuff more than one time and kill more monsters because you get less XP.

Another annoying point about most MMORPGs is that the PvP doesn't have a point. Like, for real; it's senseless. Stupid button mashing all over the place. If you take Lineage 2, PvP was a risk. It was a way to claim political power and to protect it. It was a way to settle issues and it was also a way of take advantage over something. It always had impact and a meaning if you killed somebody, at least once you get into an alliance. Which you did, otherwise you'd be dead.

Next, the crafting and economy. Whats the point of it? Imagine Aion. Lol, what senseless moneysink, it was like they wanted to support the gold farmers. Seriously? 5 Million for a CHANCE of getting a decent weapon? REALLY? I only have 2 Million, I need to farm 3 weeks for a CHANCE!?
And then I don't even get to sell it if I want to use it first!? REALLY?
Not only are bound items crap, because they kill the economy, but also no item duration kills crafting in it's very own way. Everyone can craft, everyone can make their stuff, why even bother leveling this shit up?
Oh wait, I see, you have to get rid of the MUDflation so we have to buy this shit. Okay.

I imagine most modern MMORPGs like this:
- "Hey let's make classes n stuff"
- "Oh and you should be able to make stuff to"
- "Oooh dude let's get giant bosses in there"
- "Hey let's make this shit, too."
And then they just randomly mix it together and call it Guild Wars 2. Lol. No, no offense.

Another point:
While I think Guild Wars 2 will be a decent grind game that I will love to play, I still think that there are some great flaws in it. And that is not only the problem with Guild Wars 2, but with most modern MMORPGs:

1. The battlesystem.
Pressing 1 button over and over again while sometimes pressing 3 and 4 is called a "complex battle system with great opportunities."
Let's just take Ragnarok Online, a game which got PvP patched into it because it wasn't the main point of the game at first.
It became a huge mechanic fest because you had not only to "macromanage" with your items, you also had decent micro abilities with equipment switching, skill placement and preparation.
Of course, it was limited, but I remember WoE sessions with battlemode activated where I came close to the APM I have to use in Starcraft 2 now.

Looking at Guild Wars 1(and 2), I barely see any movement in the fingers other than "123123123". It's the "1a" equivalent. There's no point in it, yet it is the most succesful way. People love it.

And what is worse:
It's the players' fault. WoW had a nice battlesystem overall but because people wanted to have it easy they created complex macros and addons to solve this. They basically made their starcraft mmo into a 1a-random-rts-mmo.

2. The partysystem
Okay, this point is actually a huge bonus for Guild Wars 2. The way they solved it is great, but I hope they won't f*** it up till the point it is abusable. For clarification: In Guild Wars 2 you just get into an event and get partied with everyone around in the event. Great move.

However, most MMORPGs punish you for making a group. You only get 40% of the xp, you have to do quests multiple times, sometimes you have to find completely different places; the loot gets rarer and worse etc.
Ragnarok Online REWARDS you for groups, grants you bonus loot and xp(or was it just xp? Can't remember eveerything <.>). Guild Wars 2 will also reward you for grouping, even force you to group. That is awesome.

3. The economy.
When you look at EVE online, it's an quite...exaggerated version of an economy & crafting. But in it's own system, it works.
Another great example for this is Ragnarok Online. The economy basically is a playable feature put into a class. The basic crafting, which is not that big but it works, is also included within the merchant class-tree. And they get nice toys like the humunculus or the carts. It's just a small thing but I remember spending hours n hours interacting with people while trading, crafting and babbling.

4. The freedom and exploring the world.
There is none. Exploring the world will end in just another texture.
Even if you take games like EVE or Fallen Earth the game has an end, and after playing it the first time it is boring. Everything is a one time thing and you won't even be that surpirsed, because what else than another tree could there be if you are in a forest? If there was a cave, you already probably heard of it as an instance or so.

This leads me to the last point I want to talk about before I end this, because I won't really change anything but I hope I could help some people.

5. Instances
I could say "Instances are another way of seperating people from each other", but Instances do even more. While they can create decent content that looks better than the usual grind, they usually give too high rewards. You are bascially forced to play them, even if you don't want to and just grind through the open world with all of your friends.
This is another point for Guild Wars 2(if it's true), as you are not forced into the instances.
Getting too high rewards from instances, that are usually BoP, kills player interaction even more and reduces it to a simple
"DPS high enough? Build? Ok go."
"Don't roll for twinks, main-only drops." Blargh.
I'm not a great instance fan, but I have to admit that sometimes, if done properly they are great fun.


Okay, without further babbling about the topic, I want to answer your question with a small list. Not ordered, they all have their place:

EVE Online and Fallen Earth for the great persistent worlds and economy/crafting, also freedom in what you want to do with your character. (Fallen Earth P2P, not F2P.) Ultima Online most likely belongs here, too.
Ragnarok Online, Dark Age of Camelot and Lineage 2. Even though I never really got into Lineage 2, it is great. Those 3 games have great PvE, great PvP(well ragnarok is a bit lame after a while but it has it's good sides.), reward groups all the way, are truly "massive" when it comes to multiplayer, don't make mistakes with the crafting and their economy and are just hella fun to play with your friends.

No, I'm not naming WoW here. If you could play WoW without all the add ons, macros and mixed in with more group-supporting ways to play, then 100times yes, but the current state is just too flawed.


Conclusion is the tl;dr.




Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 11:33 Milkis wrote:
i wanna play RO again

but it's not the same anymore sniff

RO2 looks like a failure too

seriously finding an MMORPG just with a lot of expandable content that's just a lot of *fun* farming items is ridiculously hard nowadays

every mmo is like in beta testing forever and ever ;(

RO2 looks like a failure, but RO didn't really lost it's feeling. It's weird to adjust, but I still get into it really quick.




I disagree with you saying "MMORPGs only work with grinding".
Guild Wars had a very small amount of quests compared to e.g. WoW and after you reached level 20, you didn't have to do any side quests anymore. After that it was 100% story, 0% grinding. Even without sidequests, you could get everything you needed just by following the story, there was never a need to go out and kill stuff just for the sake of EP.

Well, admittedly this changed with Nightfall where they introduced grinding, but that was also the time most people i knew in that game switched to pure PvP (GvG).

About my MMO history:
Personally i started MMOs with Guild Wars, which i played for almost 5 years, though 4 years were almost only GvGs with small PvE breaks whenever an expansion was released.
In my opinion it's still the best MMO just for how well the story is integrated into the game.

I played WoW shortly after the release of the burning crusade (IIRC, first add-on) for 2-3 month until level 40 and i still didn't know what the story was all about. As far as i noticed, there wasn't even any story to speak of. People said "Yeah it's there, you just have to read carefully and it only really starts with max level"... I read everything and still didn't notice a story and i don't want to play half a year until i can start having fun.

After GW and the short WoW interlude i switched to Lord of the Rings Online (pre-Moria add-on) and story wise, it's a lot better than WoW, mostly because of the instanced story quests that gave the developers the freedom to add a lot more story content into the game. From the first Level on, you were a part of a story.
Sadly, it contained a lot more grinding than i liked (less than WoW though), but i managed to endure it because the story was interesting enough.
The game went downhill with Moria which became a pure grind-fest for legendary weapons.
Also: The "appearance item" system was nice, allowing you to look however you want, even if the real items you wear look hideous.

Aion... Well... "Hey, you are now an angel-like half-god... oh, and you are still weak enough to die to some random wolves". Also, Grind, Grind, Grind. Endured it for a month, gave up at level 20-something. Still don't know what the story is about. Something with evil demons or so.

Tried a little Eve Online, got me a nice cruiser and then got bored after a few days because it's the very definition of "Grind".

Now i'm waiting for The Old Republic and GW2, though i will probably be very disappointed.
The public quest system of GW2 doesn't sound like it offers a good way to tell a story and TOR looks like any other MMO, "but now with Jedis!".

For me the RPG part is a lot more important than the MMO part. If a game doesn't tell a story in a good way, i don't care about the game. I hate grinding and farming. Sadly, "open world" MMOs with almost exclusively high-level instances are now the standard, eventhough it prevents almost all story telling.

In summary:
I still think GW is the best MMORPG (or if you want, CORPG) currently, followed by LotRO (pre-moria). Then there is a lot of nothing until we reach the other MMOs like WoW which are all basically the same crap. However, i have to admit that i didn't play a lot of MMOs (basically just the above mentioned), so i might not be the best to judge it.

EDIT:
I nearly forgot a thing i hate in most MMOs:

Travel!
In many MMOs like WoW, Aion or even LotRO you seem to spend half your time travelling to places. It's annoying me. It's a simple scheme to get more money as it makes you progress more slowly, resulting in more money from the monthly payments.
Guild Wars: 2-3 klicks and you are (almost) whereever you want to be. No "pay 10 silver, wait for what feels like half an hour without being able to do anything else in game and you finally reach your destination. Oh, look at those fancy areas we created that you don't want to visit anyways but that look cool.".
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 09:41:15
September 26 2011 09:40 GMT
#48
On September 26 2011 18:10 Morfildur wrote:
I disagree with you saying "MMORPGs only work with grinding".
Guild Wars had a very small amount of quests compared to e.g. WoW and after you reached level 20, you didn't have to do any side quests anymore. After that it was 100% story, 0% grinding. Even without sidequests, you could get everything you needed just by following the story, there was never a need to go out and kill stuff just for the sake of EP.

Well, admittedly this changed with Nightfall where they introduced grinding, but that was also the time most people i knew in that game switched to pure PvP (GvG).

Fair point and I completely agree, but it's really stretching the term MMORPG to call Guild Wars one.
And even there it all comes down to the same stuff over and over again, you end up killing monsters for, only the reason changes.
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 10:22:41
September 26 2011 10:19 GMT
#49
--- Nuked ---
Kaal
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Djibouti2514 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 10:30:33
September 26 2011 10:29 GMT
#50
On September 26 2011 10:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Where the fuck is Ragnarok Online?

Seriously, how can you miss that? It's great animations, absolutely gorgeous and memorable soundtrack, funny creatures and decent quests.

A bit of a grind? Yeah, I guess. But the PVP was awesome [WOE], the different classes were a nice twist (dancer, monk, etc.) tier classes.

My God, the card system and classic leveling?

Classic. I'd go back in an instant.


HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHAAHAHA
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHAAHAHA
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHAAHAHA
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHAAHAHA

That's funny. A bit of a grind. Gosh you are such a joker. It's not like it took over a week of grinding to get from 98-99 normal, if you played without sleeping. Of a month to get from 98->99 Trans class. Unless you played on a private server. I played iRO, kRO, and jRO for over 7 years. For 3 years straight AA clan was the top clan only because I had found two GTB cards by waking up every day on the minute when GTB spawned for my entire High School Summer Vacation.


Ragnarok Online is the epitome of Korean MMO, the grind is fucking hilariously long, the items dropped at less .0000001% for the rarest items such as GTB, and the game took up your SOUL.

YOUR.

SOUL.
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 10:43:37
September 26 2011 10:40 GMT
#51
Used to play WoW a lot. It was really fun in Burning Crusade...I had a lot of fun raiding. Then stuff got easier than it already was. I was in the best Alliance guild on Arthas and we would just down everything so fast. I lost interest when the awful Ulduar came out. Probably should of stopped before but I always wished it would get better.

It was also one of the only games where levelling as a group was beneficial, a game which other MMOs like WoW, MapleStory etc haven't quite sussed out yet.


Tried FFXI for a while. It sure was fun to be able to level in a party. Oh wait, that was the only way you could level. At level 12 you needed a tank, a healer, and good DPS who all knew how aggro worked. It took a long time to find a group, then you had to walk 30 minutes to find a leveling spot, then the fun began. Would of been really fun if most groups were good, but they'd mostly leave and you'd be stuck as a white mage in the middle of the desert with monsters your level but that you can't fight...anyways. It's good to have viable group leveling option, but when you don't have the option of leveling alone because of the turtle pace even at slow levels, it sucks. I never made to the level cap because of this. It was so infuriating to wait an hour to find a group then use the 30 minutes of time I had left to level up.

Also, the UI is one of the worst I've ever seen. It's like if this MMO was free.

Not worth the price at all.

Edit:


Ragnarok Online is the epitome of Korean MMO, the grind is fucking hilariously long, the items dropped at less .0000001% for the rarest items such as GTB, and the game took up your SOUL.

YOUR.

SOUL.


I lol'd. It's entirely true. Can't say I played as much as you though...
Try another route paperboy.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
September 26 2011 10:51 GMT
#52
OP, it sounds like you kind of sucked at WoW and were a bad/annoying guild member. Anyone saying "I didn't do anything wrong" and having similar problems with subsequent guilds is probably doing something wrong.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
September 26 2011 11:31 GMT
#53
What bothers me is that most MMOGs don't have the possibility to distribute stat points. Balancing STR, AGI, INT etc etc is where half the fun lies :/
This way, you can also further personalize your character.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
September 26 2011 11:35 GMT
#54
On September 26 2011 19:29 Kaal wrote:That's funny. A bit of a grind. Gosh you are such a joker. It's not like it took over a week of grinding to get from 98-99 normal, if you played without sleeping. Of a month to get from 98->99 Trans class. Unless you played on a private server. I played iRO, kRO, and jRO for over 7 years. For 3 years straight AA clan was the top clan only because I had found two GTB cards by waking up every day on the minute when GTB spawned for my entire High School Summer Vacation.


You could do that, if you wanted to, or you could just play for fun and eventually get trans. 99 in a few months.
MMORPGs were never about getting max lvl ASAP. Well, at least they used to not be like that. I mean, just look at games like Rift or TERA. Not even a week for max lvl, seriously?

And GTB is banned from most servers anyway
Thrill
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
2599 Posts
September 26 2011 11:49 GMT
#55
On September 26 2011 11:41 Adebisi wrote:
I played Lineage 2 extremely hardcore. Super fun game but HUGE timesink, basically the worst grind of any MMORPG released in the western world, unfortunately that's what made the game good, because it had REAL PvP, and it meant something when you died. It bothers me so much when dying means nothing, much less you can't even talk to your opponents ... (cough wow). The open political system just made the game so fun. Unfortunately it was so time consuming, it got to a point where I just had to say no more. lol.

Either way, had tons of fun, if no one knows anything about Lineage 2, my guild had some pretty cool fraps movies with really nice production value. Feel free to take a peak.



Show nested quote +
Is my attitude towards MMORPGs not actually being a game and more of an overscheduled timesink accurate?


Pretty much, the problem with MMORPGs is casual friendly games with no grind are just meaningless, and a real grind means... you basically can't have a life outside the game, but the game can be really fun, and you will meet tons of awesome people, even if you're all somewhat demented in one way or another from sitting behind a computer too long.


That was an awesome video, thank you. Wish they still made games like that.
Cuddle
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1345 Posts
September 26 2011 12:17 GMT
#56
I tell people that now-a-days I don't have time to play games and that I wasted so much time on WoW in the past, when really all I want is more time to waste and less responsibility IRL.

Is that fucked up? I think so.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
September 26 2011 12:17 GMT
#57
On September 26 2011 20:31 Lucumo wrote:
What bothers me is that most MMOGs don't have the possibility to distribute stat points. Balancing STR, AGI, INT etc etc is where half the fun lies :/
This way, you can also further personalize your character.


I actually don't like it if you have to distribute stat points in MMOs unless there is a way to re-distribute them.
Normal MMOs don't take that much time, so if you messed up due to a lack of knowledge, you just create a new character and then you're fine.
In MMOs, if you were clueless the first 10 levels because you were just goofing around trying things and it ends up messing up the late game it's a game breaking flaw imho.
I'm afraid of GW2 messing it up :-/

However, if the stat points can be redistributed, it's a nice mechanic and there is nothing i have against it.
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
September 26 2011 12:22 GMT
#58
Ah, RuneScape, good times.
Thank God and gunrun.
Kaal
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Djibouti2514 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 12:23:03
September 26 2011 12:22 GMT
#59
On September 26 2011 20:35 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 19:29 Kaal wrote:That's funny. A bit of a grind. Gosh you are such a joker. It's not like it took over a week of grinding to get from 98-99 normal, if you played without sleeping. Of a month to get from 98->99 Trans class. Unless you played on a private server. I played iRO, kRO, and jRO for over 7 years. For 3 years straight AA clan was the top clan only because I had found two GTB cards by waking up every day on the minute when GTB spawned for my entire High School Summer Vacation.


You could do that, if you wanted to, or you could just play for fun and eventually get trans. 99 in a few months.
MMORPGs were never about getting max lvl ASAP. Well, at least they used to not be like that. I mean, just look at games like Rift or TERA. Not even a week for max lvl, seriously?

And GTB is banned from most servers anyway


It's impossible to get trans 99 in a few months on a licensed server if you play casually. Well, before they raised the exp/drop rates it was.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 12:27:55
September 26 2011 12:27 GMT
#60
On September 26 2011 21:22 Kaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 20:35 KeksX wrote:
On September 26 2011 19:29 Kaal wrote:That's funny. A bit of a grind. Gosh you are such a joker. It's not like it took over a week of grinding to get from 98-99 normal, if you played without sleeping. Of a month to get from 98->99 Trans class. Unless you played on a private server. I played iRO, kRO, and jRO for over 7 years. For 3 years straight AA clan was the top clan only because I had found two GTB cards by waking up every day on the minute when GTB spawned for my entire High School Summer Vacation.


You could do that, if you wanted to, or you could just play for fun and eventually get trans. 99 in a few months.
MMORPGs were never about getting max lvl ASAP. Well, at least they used to not be like that. I mean, just look at games like Rift or TERA. Not even a week for max lvl, seriously?

And GTB is banned from most servers anyway


It's impossible to get trans 99 in a few months on a licensed server if you play casually. Well, before they raised the exp/drop rates it was.

Well tbh on the items you already have. If you start from scratch it's hard, but if you already have established equipment it's really not hard to play a few hours a week and get trans 99 in a few months. euRO XP Rates, which were 1.0 IIRC.

fRO might be way easier.... buuuuuut anyway, we are going away from the topic ^^
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Online Event
00:00
LATAM SC2 League: Semifinals
CranKy Ducklings82
Liquipedia
GSL
23:00
Replay Cast
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
PiGStarcraft530
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft530
RuFF_SC2 146
Nina 106
CosmosSc2 65
EnDerr 26
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 20752
Rain 1687
Artosis 827
Icarus 6
Noble 4
Dota 2
ROOTCatZ10
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 403
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox909
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor135
Other Games
summit1g13748
shahzam1539
JimRising 402
ViBE233
Maynarde130
ToD77
C9.Mang057
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream5504
Other Games
gamesdonequick1073
BasetradeTV97
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH272
• Hupsaiya 71
• davetesta34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5508
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
22m
GSL Code S
7h 52m
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
8h 22m
Replay Cast
22h 22m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 9h
OSC
1d 11h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
SOOP
2 days
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
Cheesadelphia
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
6 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.