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My take on rolling random:
After putting much thought into this it really doesn't make sense that random players get the blind advantage. The argument I hear most against this is: "I deserve an advantage because I have to learn 3 races". Even though the advantage is slight, it's still an advantage.
My response. The best (and most fitting) analogy I can use is Poker. Poker players have to learn a variety of different game variations. Each one can be equated to learning a different race because while being similar to each other they are played drastically different. However, the player gets no advantage other than he may have practiced a particular game more than the others. No Limit Texas Holdem, Pot limit Omaha, Limit Holdem, all very different and require different approaches and styles. It's not like a player enters a HORSE tournament (tournament consisting of different poker variations played during one tournament , games are Holdem, Omaha, Razz, Stud, and stud eight or better) and that player gets an advantage, no he has to play by the same starting rules as everyone else. On equal footing.
It's not like at a poker game someone says "dealers choice" and then gets to see one hole card from every opponent.
2nd point: If you choose to play Random why force me into the disadvantage? Why does your choice dictate what I can and can't do before the game even starts? This is like a player getting to see one of his opponents first two hole cards in poker. You know what I have, I know you know what I have, and I have no clue what you have so I have to adjust accordingly.
SC2 is a game of information. The more you have the better off you are. The decision to play random means as Protoss I MUST wall off. It limits my openings, and eliminates certain builds completely. The very potent Korean (Zelot) 4 gate for example. That opener is out the window, simply because a player decided to go random. His decision effected me BEFORE the game ever started.
In closing if a player feels confident rolling random then fine roll random, however don't effect my play by your decision. If anything you should be at the disadvantage as you can simply choose NOT to play Random.
It's about fair play, and being responsible for your own decisions.
Thoughts?
 
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You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages.
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From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
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Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
Yeah honestly the points you try to make in your blog make no sense, the only thing I got out of it is that you think random is imba for some reason. I mean, just look at the amount of random GSL champions.
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On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
I don't agree. With your first statement. Choosing a race before the game starts shouldn't give you an advantage. Having an advantage before a game starts is not fair play. It's also not justified.
The analogy with poker makes perfect sense if you just think it through. The game may be played slightly differently but is beholden to the same core rules. Just like SC2. It's not a stretch to make the connection.
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Yeah honestly the points you try to make in your blog make no sense, the only thing I got out of it is that you think random is imba for some reason. I mean, just look at the amount of random GSL champions.
Mind you it is 5:00 am when I started thinking about this so you may have a point. But you missed the context. Not saying Random is IMBA, but certainly saying it doesn't deserve and advantage.
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On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages.
Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop?
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I guess now we found the reason why everybody plays random!
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On August 21 2011 19:16 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
I don't agree. With your first statement. Choosing a race before the game starts shouldn't give you an advantage. Having an advantage before a game starts is not fair play. It's also not justified.
Choosing random before a game gives you the disadvantage of picking the possibility of two races with which you'll be weaker against your opponent than your strongest race in that particular matchup. Nearly all SC2 games, even those without a random player, have imbalanced starts because of rotational symmetry, matchup imbalances caused by map features, and the metagame influencing racial balance.
If you think SC2 as a strategy game cannot have imbalanced starts, I'd like to introduce you to chess.
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On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop?
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
If you think SC2 as a strategy game cannot have imbalanced starts, I'd like to introduce you to chess.
Because White moves first?
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On August 21 2011 19:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information.
why would anybody play random if there was no advantage at all?
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On August 21 2011 19:25 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information. why would anybody play random if there was no advantage at all?
I'm certain you would find plenty of people that would. That's like asking why do beginners ski down black diamonds? Some people love a challenge.
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If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
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On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
You are missing the point. Did I say that Random has "such" an advantage. No, the point is any advantage no matter how small before a match is still an advantage.
I feel it's someones choice to play random, and it shouldn't give them an advantage before the game even starts. Everyone should start on equal footing. That is my point. Also I shouldn't have to be forced in or out of a build because I have to prepare against someone that has more information that I do before the game begins.
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The problem I have with random players, is if I am trying to practice on ladder and I run into a random player, that game does not help me improve a certain matchup, because in a real match I would never have the same conditions as facing a random. I 4gate or proxy 2gate whenever I run into a random to get it over with because it is not good practice.
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On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
People won't open a specific way vs you.. I.e, a terran won't 11/11 a random player. (which is actually bad for the random player if they want to get better.
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This discussion was taken place before with TLO when he went random in SC2. Honestly, you should just scout. O and be careful to watch their race carefully when the game counts down. They may switch at the last second. It is hilarious for me when I do that and the other person thinks I chose zerg because thats what the game makes them see. Zerg= he chose but game most likely bugged. Overall, TLO used to be random to 1) Find his favorite race and 2) For the advantage that was already stated in numerous posts.
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On August 21 2011 19:56 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
People won't open a specific way vs you.. I.e, a terran won't 11/11 a random player. (which is actually bad for the random player if they want to get better.
It's bad if the random player wants to get better at playing Zerg, but it's good if he wants to get better at playing Random.
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You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups.
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On August 21 2011 20:13 chaokel wrote:
You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups.
Again, it's not about theory-crafting, or IMBA. It's about not giving one race an advantage. If you want to put it into those terms, why should the "random" race have any advantage over the other 3? And while there are different builds vs different races none of those throw a particular build out the window BEFORE THE GAME STARTS! If I know I am playing protoss I can open Korean 4 gate if I want to be aggressive. Against a random that build is dead. You can't have your caked and eat it too.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop? Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
Isn't it forbidden to play random in official Korean BW tournaments? Just as you can't race pick in courage, which forces people to pick one race instead of match-ups. Many of the people at the top have very good second or third races.
As for this. Random is a fourth race with an early game advantage and a mid/late game disadvantage. Same as Z having an advantage against P.
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All I know is I hate playing against randoms.
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Norway28665 Posts
I think the game wouldve been more fun if everyone were forced to play random. rvr was always the most fun in bw, and I think it would be in sc2 as well, cuz it forces much less streamlined openings and less predictability. 
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Sweden33719 Posts
I actually agree, I think you should be able to random but I should see what race you got. Plz tell me how Im supposed to scout you in time to even choose an opening on Tal'darim without getting lucky? This basically forces me into doing shit I dont want to, and its not at all dependant on your skill or trickery, its just random luck.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 21 2011 20:36 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop? Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Isn't it forbidden to play random in official Korean BW tournaments? Just as you can't race pick in courage, which forces people to pick one race instead of match-ups. Many of the people at the top have very good second or third races. As for this. Random is a fourth race with an early game advantage and a mid/late game disadvantage. Same as Z having an advantage against P.
I don't remember the specifics, but from what I remember it's allowed. You just have to announce Z/T/P/R sufficiently ahead of time, or rather you have a default race (which can be R), which you may not change on the spot, only in advance.
RvR is aweome, Eri is right of course
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I like rolling random, so I can 6 pool/proxy 2 gate/proxy rax the shit out of people like you and then bathe in their tears
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On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
You kinda missed this paragraph:
2nd point: If you choose to play Random why force me into the disadvantage? Why does your choice dictate what I can and can't do before the game even starts? This is like a player getting to see one of his opponents first two hole cards in poker. You know what I have, I know you know what I have, and I have no clue what you have so I have to adjust accordingly.
I agree with this entirely. Playing random is a disadvantage my opponent chooses to impose on himself. I shouldn't be expected to play with a disadvantage as well to compensate for his choice.
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Whenever I play random I always tell people what my race is. If you dont, then you're just kind of being a pussy.
You're basically saying "I need an early game advantage over you in this game, because I do not feel I can play all 3 races as well as you play your 1"
fuck that man
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Lol the argument of choosing random = deserved advantage is stupid. Past 7 minutes that advantage is completely squandered.
Random's only good for cheese if you don't know the race you get in game.
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On August 21 2011 20:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 20:13 chaokel wrote:
You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups. Again, it's not about theory-crafting, or IMBA. It's about not giving one race an advantage. If you want to put it into those terms, why should the "random" race have any advantage over the other 3? And while there are different builds vs different races none of those throw a particular build out the window BEFORE THE GAME STARTS! If I know I am playing protoss I can open Korean 4 gate if I want to be aggressive. Against a random that build is dead. You can't have your caked and eat it too.
... uhhh, so you're saying you have the same builds for PvT, PvP and PvZ?
If the answer is no (which it should be for most people) then how can you say that you don't throw a build out of the window before the game starts??
Are you saying you FE in your PvP's.. Probably not because its not really a viable build in that matchup, which is the same as some builds against randoms. Every matchup is different which you don't seem to agree?
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I completely agree with the OP. Any person who chooses Random purely to take advantage of the fact that their opponents start at a disadvantage are the type of people who would then cheese every game to abuse it.
If you made it so that the random players race shows during the loading menu, it would mean these players would pick a race instead.
The people who would continue playing Random are players who enjoy playing all three races, those who enjoy the challenge of playing all three races, and those who are attempting to gain a better understanding of all match-ups.
The fact of the matter is that any advantage that requires zero skill or effort to utilize is not just unfair, it encourages abusive and unskilled play.
Simply saying that not having the information advantage at the beginning of the game would make it pointless to play Random is clearly missing the point of the option. Considering it a Fourth race purely because it encourages playing whatever race you roll differently is stupid. That would be like considering European Protoss to be a different race to Korean Protoss, simply due to differences in the ladder Meta-game.
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On August 21 2011 19:50 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game. You are missing the point. Did I say that Random has "such" an advantage. No, the point is any advantage no matter how small before a match is still an advantage. I feel it's someones choice to play random, and it shouldn't give them an advantage before the game even starts. Everyone should start on equal footing. That is my point. Also I shouldn't have to be forced in or out of a build because I have to prepare against someone that has more information that I do before the game begins.
Blizzard themselves stated (on Random Race selection in wc3 I think) that going random is supposed to give the Random player an edge over his opponent (limiting his options), whereas random players will have to master all races instead of just one. The fact that the Random practiced with each race only 1/3 of the time the race picking player did with a single race equalizes the starting advantage of Random at the very least.
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Norway28665 Posts
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player.
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Since the advantage of a random player lasts only so long as it takes to scout, I genuinely look forward to playing them. The only time's I have thus far lost to random players are against cheese. That's not to say random players are bad, but I'm pretty much guarenteed to have an advantage in experience over them in both the individual match up and the current meta game, at least at my level of play (Plat).
Considering that though, I guess if you get to GM as Random it might mean a little more? I don't know, more power to them though tbh.
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I guess it all comes down to whether we want Random to be considered a separate Race with it's own metagame, or rather just consider it a queuing mechanic that players can use to add some variation to laddering or play all three races equally.
If it's the former, it means that Protoss, Terran and Zerg players all need to have a fourth build order for playing Random. One that is both safe to cheese of any kind (6pool, proxy 2gate, 6rax, proxy 2rax, 10pool/9pool, etc etc) while not putting them at such a disadvantage that their Random opponent can take massive economic gambles.
If it's the latter, then the advantage given to Random players is completely meaningless, and would actually make Randoming less meaningful, as the metagame in a Random Protoss vs Protoss, or Random Zerg vs Terran will be different than in a standard non-random game.
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Everybody who keeps saying random isn't unbalanced, please tell me a viable opening in BW Protoss vs Random.
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On August 21 2011 23:42 ninini wrote:
Everybody who keeps saying random isn't unbalanced, please tell me a viable opening in BW Protoss vs Random.
think most of the people are talking about sc2, RvP is clearly hugely in favor of the R in BW
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I play random and I literally lose every game where I get Zerg, and mostly win with Terran or Toss. If I'd seriously want to get better, I'd pick a race, but since I don't care about that I play random. No one that competes at the top plays random full time, because it is just not feasible.
Also, on practice games or if someone asks on ladder I tell them my race
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Some people only enjoy playing one race. It is unfair to those people to have to pick random if they don't want to be disadvantaged vs people who like all races.
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I don't agree with the way random works. It doesn't make sense that I start at a disadvantage because of something that is out of my control. I would be ok with it if I could choose not to play random players, but its silly that I have to start the game not knowing what race I am playing simply because my opponent chose random.
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On August 21 2011 22:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player.
Summed up my thoughts exactly.
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On August 21 2011 22:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player.
Using random to be able to pull of a greedy build is really cheesy. Anyone who doesn't see this is really really stupid.
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Norway28665 Posts
I'm not talking about using random to be able to open 14 nexus, I'm talking about using random to avoid encountering race-specific cheese. trying to random just so you can be overly greedy is just as stupid as trying to random just so you can cheese - randoming ensures that you are scouted earlier than you'd otherwise be. that's how it is. I haven't really randomed much in sc2, (and honestly I stopped randoming in like 2004 in bw - but I never had as much fun as I did when I randomed), but the principle is the same. randoming meant that I wasn't getting cheesed, and thus made it more likely that a game would last into the mid-game.
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On August 22 2011 01:43 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 22:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player. Using random to be able to pull of a greedy build is really cheesy. Anyone who doesn't see this is really really stupid.
Granted, but is this a discussion about removing cheese from the game now?
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On August 22 2011 02:06 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 01:43 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On August 21 2011 22:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player. Using random to be able to pull of a greedy build is really cheesy. Anyone who doesn't see this is really really stupid. Granted, but is this a discussion about removing cheese from the game now?
I quoted a user for a reason.
I believe the discussion was about the potential imbalance of choosing random. If I'm saying that being random can give you an advantage whether you cheese or play really greedy, how am I trying to say that cheese should be removed from the game?
I'm really confused by your post.
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On August 22 2011 02:21 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:06 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 22 2011 01:43 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On August 21 2011 22:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player. Using random to be able to pull of a greedy build is really cheesy. Anyone who doesn't see this is really really stupid. Granted, but is this a discussion about removing cheese from the game now? I quoted a user for a reason. I believe the discussion was about the potential imbalance of choosing random. If I'm saying that being random can give you an advantage whether you cheese or play really greedy, how am I trying to say that cheese should be removed from the game? I'm really confused by your post.
Having re-read your post I quoted repeatedly I'm still having trouble seeing it as anything but my original interpretation but given your response I'm assuming then that you have mean it's stupid to use random for any form of early game advantage but that it's not imbalanced and thus doesn't need to be changed. If that's what you meant, then I appologise for minsunderstanding.
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I play StarCraft 2 for fun. I play random because I find all 3 races fun to play and I think limiting myself to a third of the game by picking a race is stupid. Why don't I just pick a different race every time? Because I enjoy the fact that I don't know what I will be playing and it adds to the excitement of the game for me. As such, sometimes I spawn with a slight advantage, and sometimes I spawn with a disadvantage. But that doesn't matter to me, why? Because it's a game that I play for fun.
The only reason I didn't play random in Broodwar is because everyone on Iccup was a bunch of whiners who would ban me if I didn't pick a race in the menu. Thank god they don't have that luxury in SC2. What right does anyone have to tell me how I should spend my $60? Selfish assholes.
The people who complain about random are the ones who have delusions that they are actually any good at this game and think that their 2000 masters rank means something. It doesn't. Unless you are 25+ grandmasters rank you are terrible, the sooner you realize this the sooner you can actually start enjoying the game and we can stop seeing all the "I am not enjoying SC2 but I have to keep playing because I am kidding myself into thinking I am MC" posts.
Get over it.
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On August 22 2011 03:04 Myrkskog wrote:
The people who complain about random are the ones who have delusions that they are actually any good at this game and think that their 2000 masters rank means something. It doesn't. Unless you are 25+ grandmasters rank you are terrible, the sooner you realize this the sooner you can actually start enjoying the game and we can stop seeing all the "I am not enjoying SC2 but I have to keep playing because I am kidding myself into thinking I am MC" posts.
lol I just love this mentality people have.
"If you aren't in the top 0.0001% of players then you are terrible!"
Give me a fucking break. Try using a standard of terrible that the rest of the planet uses, please. Go tell an International Master at chess that they are terrible because they aren't GM.
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On August 22 2011 04:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:04 Myrkskog wrote:
The people who complain about random are the ones who have delusions that they are actually any good at this game and think that their 2000 masters rank means something. It doesn't. Unless you are 25+ grandmasters rank you are terrible, the sooner you realize this the sooner you can actually start enjoying the game and we can stop seeing all the "I am not enjoying SC2 but I have to keep playing because I am kidding myself into thinking I am MC" posts.
lol I just love this mentality people have. "If you aren't in the top 0.0001% of players then you are terrible!" Give me a fucking break. Try using a standard of terrible that the rest of the planet uses, please. Go tell an International Master at chess that they are terrible because they aren't GM.
Agree completely.
OP... you try playing random in masters and tell me the amount of effort and time doesn't deserve some kind of benefit. I admire random players as my T and Z are far below my P and I doubt that will change in the near future. I admire good R players to a certain extent.
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On August 22 2011 04:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2011 03:04 Myrkskog wrote:
The people who complain about random are the ones who have delusions that they are actually any good at this game and think that their 2000 masters rank means something. It doesn't. Unless you are 25+ grandmasters rank you are terrible, the sooner you realize this the sooner you can actually start enjoying the game and we can stop seeing all the "I am not enjoying SC2 but I have to keep playing because I am kidding myself into thinking I am MC" posts.
lol I just love this mentality people have. "If you aren't in the top 0.0001% of players then you are terrible!" Give me a fucking break. Try using a standard of terrible that the rest of the planet uses, please. Go tell an International Master at chess that they are terrible because they aren't GM.
Look at any live report thread. You will constantly see people saying that the top tier players are playing horribly because they mis-micro'd or built up the wrong unit composition. Are these Code S players playing terribly? No. They are playing amazing, but this is the skill scale that the StarCraft community has collectively adopted. If you don't like how this community gauges its participants, go play chess.
Way to sidestep and ignore the real debate by latching onto the one subjective element. Stop trying to derail the thread and go troll somewhere else.
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On August 22 2011 03:04 Myrkskog wrote:
I play StarCraft 2 for fun. I play random because I find all 3 races fun to play and I think limiting myself to a third of the game by picking a race is stupid. Why don't I just pick a different race every time? Because I enjoy the fact that I don't know what I will be playing and it adds to the excitement of the game for me. As such, sometimes I spawn with a slight advantage, and sometimes I spawn with a disadvantage. But that doesn't matter to me, why? Because it's a game that I play for fun.
Would your excitement be diminished in any way by finding out your race at the loading screen rather than the game start? No. Would it make the game simpler and less stressful for your opponents? Yes.
You were so quick to wade in and call everyone a bunch of e-penis bearing posers that you entirely missed the point. Have fun cheesing your way through Silver league.
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EPT
