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My take on rolling random:
After putting much thought into this it really doesn't make sense that random players get the blind advantage. The argument I hear most against this is: "I deserve an advantage because I have to learn 3 races". Even though the advantage is slight, it's still an advantage.
My response. The best (and most fitting) analogy I can use is Poker. Poker players have to learn a variety of different game variations. Each one can be equated to learning a different race because while being similar to each other they are played drastically different. However, the player gets no advantage other than he may have practiced a particular game more than the others. No Limit Texas Holdem, Pot limit Omaha, Limit Holdem, all very different and require different approaches and styles. It's not like a player enters a HORSE tournament (tournament consisting of different poker variations played during one tournament , games are Holdem, Omaha, Razz, Stud, and stud eight or better) and that player gets an advantage, no he has to play by the same starting rules as everyone else. On equal footing.
It's not like at a poker game someone says "dealers choice" and then gets to see one hole card from every opponent.
2nd point: If you choose to play Random why force me into the disadvantage? Why does your choice dictate what I can and can't do before the game even starts? This is like a player getting to see one of his opponents first two hole cards in poker. You know what I have, I know you know what I have, and I have no clue what you have so I have to adjust accordingly.
SC2 is a game of information. The more you have the better off you are. The decision to play random means as Protoss I MUST wall off. It limits my openings, and eliminates certain builds completely. The very potent Korean (Zelot) 4 gate for example. That opener is out the window, simply because a player decided to go random. His decision effected me BEFORE the game ever started.
In closing if a player feels confident rolling random then fine roll random, however don't effect my play by your decision. If anything you should be at the disadvantage as you can simply choose NOT to play Random.
It's about fair play, and being responsible for your own decisions.
Thoughts?
 
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You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages.
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From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
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Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
Yeah honestly the points you try to make in your blog make no sense, the only thing I got out of it is that you think random is imba for some reason. I mean, just look at the amount of random GSL champions.
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On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
I don't agree. With your first statement. Choosing a race before the game starts shouldn't give you an advantage. Having an advantage before a game starts is not fair play. It's also not justified.
The analogy with poker makes perfect sense if you just think it through. The game may be played slightly differently but is beholden to the same core rules. Just like SC2. It's not a stretch to make the connection.
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Yeah honestly the points you try to make in your blog make no sense, the only thing I got out of it is that you think random is imba for some reason. I mean, just look at the amount of random GSL champions.
Mind you it is 5:00 am when I started thinking about this so you may have a point. But you missed the context. Not saying Random is IMBA, but certainly saying it doesn't deserve and advantage.
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On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages.
Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop?
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I guess now we found the reason why everybody plays random!
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On August 21 2011 19:16 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
I don't agree. With your first statement. Choosing a race before the game starts shouldn't give you an advantage. Having an advantage before a game starts is not fair play. It's also not justified.
Choosing random before a game gives you the disadvantage of picking the possibility of two races with which you'll be weaker against your opponent than your strongest race in that particular matchup. Nearly all SC2 games, even those without a random player, have imbalanced starts because of rotational symmetry, matchup imbalances caused by map features, and the metagame influencing racial balance.
If you think SC2 as a strategy game cannot have imbalanced starts, I'd like to introduce you to chess.
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On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop?
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
If you think SC2 as a strategy game cannot have imbalanced starts, I'd like to introduce you to chess.
Because White moves first?
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On August 21 2011 19:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information.
why would anybody play random if there was no advantage at all?
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On August 21 2011 19:25 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:
Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Yeah, the meta game shifts do play hell with that theory. I still feel that everyone should start the game with equal information. why would anybody play random if there was no advantage at all?
I'm certain you would find plenty of people that would. That's like asking why do beginners ski down black diamonds? Some people love a challenge.
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If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
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On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
You are missing the point. Did I say that Random has "such" an advantage. No, the point is any advantage no matter how small before a match is still an advantage.
I feel it's someones choice to play random, and it shouldn't give them an advantage before the game even starts. Everyone should start on equal footing. That is my point. Also I shouldn't have to be forced in or out of a build because I have to prepare against someone that has more information that I do before the game begins.
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The problem I have with random players, is if I am trying to practice on ladder and I run into a random player, that game does not help me improve a certain matchup, because in a real match I would never have the same conditions as facing a random. I 4gate or proxy 2gate whenever I run into a random to get it over with because it is not good practice.
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On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
People won't open a specific way vs you.. I.e, a terran won't 11/11 a random player. (which is actually bad for the random player if they want to get better.
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This discussion was taken place before with TLO when he went random in SC2. Honestly, you should just scout. O and be careful to watch their race carefully when the game counts down. They may switch at the last second. It is hilarious for me when I do that and the other person thinks I chose zerg because thats what the game makes them see. Zerg= he chose but game most likely bugged. Overall, TLO used to be random to 1) Find his favorite race and 2) For the advantage that was already stated in numerous posts.
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On August 21 2011 19:56 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:12 TI52 wrote:
From a random player's point of view:
You are the one who decided to play only one race, you force yourself into the disadvantage. You have the option to play random yourself.
Also, your analogy with poker makes no sense. You can't compare playing random with playing different poker variations. Those are just different similar card games, just like BroodWar /sc2 are different but similar RTS games.
People won't open a specific way vs you.. I.e, a terran won't 11/11 a random player. (which is actually bad for the random player if they want to get better.
It's bad if the random player wants to get better at playing Zerg, but it's good if he wants to get better at playing Random.
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EPT
