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You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups.
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On August 21 2011 20:13 chaokel wrote:
You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups.
Again, it's not about theory-crafting, or IMBA. It's about not giving one race an advantage. If you want to put it into those terms, why should the "random" race have any advantage over the other 3? And while there are different builds vs different races none of those throw a particular build out the window BEFORE THE GAME STARTS! If I know I am playing protoss I can open Korean 4 gate if I want to be aggressive. Against a random that build is dead. You can't have your caked and eat it too.
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On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop? Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down.
Isn't it forbidden to play random in official Korean BW tournaments? Just as you can't race pick in courage, which forces people to pick one race instead of match-ups. Many of the people at the top have very good second or third races.
As for this. Random is a fourth race with an early game advantage and a mid/late game disadvantage. Same as Z having an advantage against P.
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All I know is I hate playing against randoms.
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Norway28503 Posts
I think the game wouldve been more fun if everyone were forced to play random. rvr was always the most fun in bw, and I think it would be in sc2 as well, cuz it forces much less streamlined openings and less predictability. 
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Sweden33719 Posts
I actually agree, I think you should be able to random but I should see what race you got. Plz tell me how Im supposed to scout you in time to even choose an opening on Tal'darim without getting lucky? This basically forces me into doing shit I dont want to, and its not at all dependant on your skill or trickery, its just random luck.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 21 2011 20:36 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:20 Kraznaya wrote:On August 21 2011 19:18 TumbaStarcraft wrote:On August 21 2011 19:11 Kraznaya wrote:
You need to think of Random as a separate race. Sure it has an information edge in the early game, but do you know how fucking hard it is to learn 3 races compared to 1? Random has the highest ceiling of any race, but the disadvantages of how hard it is to play random at a high level outweigh the advantages. Do you feel over time that diminishes? Once people have had the opportunity to learn all 3 races doesn't the difficulty factor drop? Not at all. Just look at the number of random players in BW. Complexity of a game and difficulty of learning a race goes up over time, not down. Isn't it forbidden to play random in official Korean BW tournaments? Just as you can't race pick in courage, which forces people to pick one race instead of match-ups. Many of the people at the top have very good second or third races. As for this. Random is a fourth race with an early game advantage and a mid/late game disadvantage. Same as Z having an advantage against P.
I don't remember the specifics, but from what I remember it's allowed. You just have to announce Z/T/P/R sufficiently ahead of time, or rather you have a default race (which can be R), which you may not change on the spot, only in advance.
RvR is aweome, Eri is right of course
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I like rolling random, so I can 6 pool/proxy 2 gate/proxy rax the shit out of people like you and then bathe in their tears
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On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game.
You kinda missed this paragraph:
2nd point: If you choose to play Random why force me into the disadvantage? Why does your choice dictate what I can and can't do before the game even starts? This is like a player getting to see one of his opponents first two hole cards in poker. You know what I have, I know you know what I have, and I have no clue what you have so I have to adjust accordingly.
I agree with this entirely. Playing random is a disadvantage my opponent chooses to impose on himself. I shouldn't be expected to play with a disadvantage as well to compensate for his choice.
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Whenever I play random I always tell people what my race is. If you dont, then you're just kind of being a pussy.
You're basically saying "I need an early game advantage over you in this game, because I do not feel I can play all 3 races as well as you play your 1"
fuck that man
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Lol the argument of choosing random = deserved advantage is stupid. Past 7 minutes that advantage is completely squandered.
Random's only good for cheese if you don't know the race you get in game.
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On August 21 2011 20:23 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 20:13 chaokel wrote:
You act like coming up against any of the other 3 races doesn't dictate what you can or can't do at the start of the game.
Fact: For versing every race there are different builds that are viable. Versing random is no different.
If you don't like it then play random and see how much of an actual advantage you have over people of similar skill level to you instead of 'theory-crafting'.
I'd also like to address the fact that playing random players isn't actually practice for the 'match-up', the matchup is XvR. This is a seperate matchup to XvP or XvT or XvZ. It's not 'bad' for the random player, they play random so saying they dont get to practice against a certain style is like saying that Zergs dont get to practice against a TvP strategy. It just doesn't make sense.
I guess my main point is that picking random is like playing another race, one that has all its own little idiosyncrasies just like the other 3, so stop trying to compare it to your normal XvY matchups. Again, it's not about theory-crafting, or IMBA. It's about not giving one race an advantage. If you want to put it into those terms, why should the "random" race have any advantage over the other 3? And while there are different builds vs different races none of those throw a particular build out the window BEFORE THE GAME STARTS! If I know I am playing protoss I can open Korean 4 gate if I want to be aggressive. Against a random that build is dead. You can't have your caked and eat it too.
... uhhh, so you're saying you have the same builds for PvT, PvP and PvZ?
If the answer is no (which it should be for most people) then how can you say that you don't throw a build out of the window before the game starts??
Are you saying you FE in your PvP's.. Probably not because its not really a viable build in that matchup, which is the same as some builds against randoms. Every matchup is different which you don't seem to agree?
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I completely agree with the OP. Any person who chooses Random purely to take advantage of the fact that their opponents start at a disadvantage are the type of people who would then cheese every game to abuse it.
If you made it so that the random players race shows during the loading menu, it would mean these players would pick a race instead.
The people who would continue playing Random are players who enjoy playing all three races, those who enjoy the challenge of playing all three races, and those who are attempting to gain a better understanding of all match-ups.
The fact of the matter is that any advantage that requires zero skill or effort to utilize is not just unfair, it encourages abusive and unskilled play.
Simply saying that not having the information advantage at the beginning of the game would make it pointless to play Random is clearly missing the point of the option. Considering it a Fourth race purely because it encourages playing whatever race you roll differently is stupid. That would be like considering European Protoss to be a different race to Korean Protoss, simply due to differences in the ladder Meta-game.
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On August 21 2011 19:50 TumbaStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 19:38 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
If random has such an advantage why don't we see more (or any) random players in tournaments? You dismiss the argument that they have to learn 3 time as much but just saying that's just practice and experience. Starcraft is probably 80% practice and experience in my opinion. At every skill level, random players have to be better than their opponent to win in the late game. You are missing the point. Did I say that Random has "such" an advantage. No, the point is any advantage no matter how small before a match is still an advantage. I feel it's someones choice to play random, and it shouldn't give them an advantage before the game even starts. Everyone should start on equal footing. That is my point. Also I shouldn't have to be forced in or out of a build because I have to prepare against someone that has more information that I do before the game begins.
Blizzard themselves stated (on Random Race selection in wc3 I think) that going random is supposed to give the Random player an edge over his opponent (limiting his options), whereas random players will have to master all races instead of just one. The fact that the Random practiced with each race only 1/3 of the time the race picking player did with a single race equalizes the starting advantage of Random at the very least.
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Norway28503 Posts
man
look at the amount of random players in high level tournaments
there are NONE. tlo has occasionally randomed, but has mostly been picking race. so it's like, maybe 1/3 of 1 player out of the top 300 or whatever, randoms. knowing this, and thinking that randoming gives you an advantage bigger than the disadvantage gotten from having to learn all three races, is really really stupid.
and randoming is just as much a cheese-defense as it is a cheese-opportunity anyway - I myself started randoming in bw because I was tired of playing vs bbs in zvt - once you random, you force your opponent into opening with a relatively standard opening geared towards a regular mid-game, rather than some timed BO that either kills you or dies in the first 4 minutes. going random and then chessing is honestly really stupid, because so many players expect it from a random player.
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Since the advantage of a random player lasts only so long as it takes to scout, I genuinely look forward to playing them. The only time's I have thus far lost to random players are against cheese. That's not to say random players are bad, but I'm pretty much guarenteed to have an advantage in experience over them in both the individual match up and the current meta game, at least at my level of play (Plat).
Considering that though, I guess if you get to GM as Random it might mean a little more? I don't know, more power to them though tbh.
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I guess it all comes down to whether we want Random to be considered a separate Race with it's own metagame, or rather just consider it a queuing mechanic that players can use to add some variation to laddering or play all three races equally.
If it's the former, it means that Protoss, Terran and Zerg players all need to have a fourth build order for playing Random. One that is both safe to cheese of any kind (6pool, proxy 2gate, 6rax, proxy 2rax, 10pool/9pool, etc etc) while not putting them at such a disadvantage that their Random opponent can take massive economic gambles.
If it's the latter, then the advantage given to Random players is completely meaningless, and would actually make Randoming less meaningful, as the metagame in a Random Protoss vs Protoss, or Random Zerg vs Terran will be different than in a standard non-random game.
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Everybody who keeps saying random isn't unbalanced, please tell me a viable opening in BW Protoss vs Random.
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On August 21 2011 23:42 ninini wrote:
Everybody who keeps saying random isn't unbalanced, please tell me a viable opening in BW Protoss vs Random.
think most of the people are talking about sc2, RvP is clearly hugely in favor of the R in BW
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I play random and I literally lose every game where I get Zerg, and mostly win with Terran or Toss. If I'd seriously want to get better, I'd pick a race, but since I don't care about that I play random. No one that competes at the top plays random full time, because it is just not feasible.
Also, on practice games or if someone asks on ladder I tell them my race
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EPT
