• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:46
CET 14:46
KST 22:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book3Clem wins HomeStory Cup 287HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info4herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April7Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Clem wins HomeStory Cup 28 How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026 $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) HomeStory Cup 28 RSL Season 4 announced for March-April
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report
Brood War
General
StarCraft player reflex TE scores [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? Gypsy to Korea 2024 BoxeR's birthday message
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1365 users

Ladder Blog #11

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 20:53:04
August 16 2011 20:52 GMT
#1
Haven't done this in a while. Excuses is that I started losing a lot, when I started winning I got lazy and didn't write any. Anyway, here's a new one.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
I've had soooo much trouble with 15 hatch. It's sooooo hard to hold off 2 rax pressure, it's insane. I've lost to it so many times since I've started using the build. I think I've finally gotten down how to defend though.

1- Always keep your second overlord above your natural. To scout anything he brings in, keeps track of his unit numbers.
2- Don't go gas early. I don't have enough resources to defend if I do.
3- Keep a drone on the scout scv.
4- If the scout scv moves towards the natural, pull a few drones to the natural to defend against bunkers. If no bunkers, just wait until the natural is finished to mine.
5- Don't undermake zerglings, don't overmake zerglings. Souds simple, but this is the hardest part.

I've lost to a marauder hellion bust, several marine/hellion elevators, and anything else you care to name (except banshees. I actually haven't seen one in a while but I'm confident against those anyway. Tis been rough, but I think I'm solidifying. A bit. Still really hard to defend against all-ins. If a game gets into late game, I'm usually golden. Obviously since I try to go into late-game every game. The only reason I actually lose is I make too many drones. Then again, that's the only reason I win a lot of the time too.

I'm thinking of just using the 11 pool I use in ZvT instead. It's just as economic and it's sure as hell safer than 15 hatch. An alternative would be getting the pool up sooner. Instead of 17 supply, I'd do it around 16. I don't really want to resort to the this solution though.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
I've been doing a lot of 1 base roach ling timing pushes and winning easily like that, since most people just don't get enough units. If not, I generally have a big enough econ to go into late game. I've been winning a lot of games.

And then I ran into this Korean player on 1on1 obs metalopolis.

I felt so outclassed that game. Every thing he could've done well, he did. He played so perfectly and I got absolutely demolished, it wasn't even close. After that game, I really felt like I had so much more to learn. It was eye-opening.

Now, I think I'm going to lean towards more drone focused early game. Same build as before, just sneak a few drones in before everything. Also, I need to keep reviewing Sen's daily on ZvZ. I still need to nail down the build orders. Thankfully, I got the NASL replay pack so I can reference those.

Mutas are really interesting imo. After watching a few Nestea games, I think I got a general idea of how to use them properly. I still don't understand the details. I wish Day9 would do a daily on it.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
So before in ZvP, I didn't really memorize timings at all, I just went on instinct. Then I watched a daily where Day9 mentioned a timing. After a 1 gate expo, I'm safe for around 2 minutes until 8 minutes. I generalized and put a few arbitrary timings for other builds like 3 gate expo and forge fe. Suddenly, I'm doing a lot better.

I've been trying out 15 pool on Shakuras, since Protoss tends to go for forge FE most of the time. The logic is that I need 3 bases early. The 11 pool build I do gets me a lot of drones, but if I rush a third base, then I'm cutting drones and not really using the larva that I produce early on. But with a 15 hatch, I feel a lot less safe for some reason. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with it.

Instead, I think I'm going to go for Destiny's 11 pool instead of my version. HIs version gets a later queen, a faster natural hatch, and I assume I can get a faster third hatch since the queen's later.

I watched the Ret ZvP daily and oh man, he looks absolutely dominant. It's crazy. A problem I think I have is knowing when to stop drone production. Basically, I just stop without even counting. Well, actually, I don't even stop. I just start to make less. I think that might be a problem I have. I'll take a look at that later.


You know how I waited a day to do my placement, just so I could get placed into a weaker division?

[image loading]

Last season I was consistently around 6th. Now, I'm lower T_T. I know it doesn't mean anything but just a few losses and I could lose my shiny top 8 icon.

So, I'll put up this poll again since last blog wasn't really that conclusive. I want to change my name folks, you decide =).

Poll: New name

Emiya (11)
 
38%

Avalon (10)
 
34%

Caliburn (6)
 
21%

Clarent (2)
 
7%

29 total votes

Your vote: New name

(Vote): Avalon
(Vote): Caliburn
(Vote): Clarent
(Vote): Emiya



+ Show Spoiler [ Blogs #1-10] +
Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7
Blog #8
Blog #9
Blog #10


***
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 20:58 GMT
#2
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 20:59 GMT
#3
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:01 GMT
#4
Just 15 15. Youre safe vs 2rax with good control. 15 14 on maps with shorter rush distances.

You can 15 17 ok vs gas builds (ie. not 2rax).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:04 GMT
#5
Hmm, when would you drone scout usually? I know I don't want to go too early but I need to scout at the 2 rax imo.
TheRealNanMan
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1471 Posts
August 16 2011 21:07 GMT
#6
This is my first time checking out your ladder blogs and I've become a fan. Very interesting write up for the match ups, i'm excited to your progress in the future ^^
Sc2 Caster | Host of Sc2 Up & Coming | The Godfather of Team LXG | Sc2 Historian | Youtube.com/NanMan | Twitch.tv/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/TheRealNanMan |
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:08 GMT
#7
The only way to scout the 2rax early enough is 9 scout and only works on 2player maps. That said, why 9 scout just so you can 15/17, probably no net benefit that way. I think you basically base your decision on meta-gaming your opponent. If you know your opponent never 2rax's basically (ie. they favour gas openings). Ret doesnt drone scout, relying on overlords, he doesnt even place his 2nd ovie at the nat. In all honesty, why not just 15/15 or 15/14, its what all the koreans do anyways.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:10 GMT
#8
I'm a droney kind of guy . That said, I guess I will switch to 15/15

Thanks for the support NanMan!
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 16 2011 21:22 GMT
#9
As others have said get faster pool against 2 rax I also found delaying my second queen for more lings helps a ton too....Usually I scout on 14 and only if they're in the last position on a 4 player map will i be too late to find them.

Against the elevator strats i've found getting an extra queen for creep (looking at leenock vs boxer games) helps a ton. Sometimes I'll get 2 and pull most of my guys off gas if terran's going for a late expand, or at least moving to his expo late. Creep spread and focus firing medivacs helps a ton. ANd the extra transfuses are amazing vs one base terran all-ins

I am that I am
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
August 16 2011 21:28 GMT
#10
don't do avalon it's a beach.... do caliburn
Jh
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Finland151 Posts
August 16 2011 21:45 GMT
#11
all the names are terrible

except emiya, it's sounds like hot exotic chick
what
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
August 16 2011 23:10 GMT
#12
On August 17 2011 05:58 Entropic wrote:
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin


He's right, standard is 15/15 for two rax or 15/16 for hellion/anything else really. 15/17 is pushing it, besides it's not that economical since your queens are out later.

if you 15/15 it's actually pretty easy to hold. It's only hard on Xel'naga or DQ really...or that lava map I don't play on anymore

Also spine crawlers are your friend.
Try another route paperboy.
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
August 16 2011 23:42 GMT
#13
Emiya Shiro? ^____^ cool blog collection, good writeups and other than Emiya and Avalon, the other names are ugly. DON'T GET DISCOURAGED just continue to have fun, yell and be loud seriously it makes gaming so fun.
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 16 2011 23:57 GMT
#14
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change
dr Helvetica <3
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 17 2011 00:37 GMT
#15
Also just a tip vs the slayers style elevator strats. Sniping or at least doing enough dmg to it to fend the initial medivac off is key so you'll want to do an opening that gets at least 3 or 4 queens (3 or 4 is upon your preference, Ret does 3, Dimaga does 4, DRG does only 2 queens doing his fast muta build but with 2 spines). Creeping up your base and especially the cliff areas where they are likely to elevator will help tons as well.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 00:59:11
August 17 2011 00:56 GMT
#16
On August 17 2011 05:59 neobowman wrote:
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.


I 15/17 standard as well, and I'd say ZvT is my best matchup.

I send my 13th drone as a scout. If I see fast gas that indicates reactor hellion, I get my pool at 18 and start my extractor when the pool finishes, and get creep tumors with both of my first queens. I don't think you can afford gas any earlier than that. If they are 2raxing, or if I scout 1rax no gas (which could easily be a hidden or proxy rax) I pool at 17 and as soon as I hit 18 supply I send out a drone to start looking for any bunker shenanigans. Either way I build a sunk as soon as my pool/hatch at nat finishes and drone hard, with one pair of lings to scout and kill their scout.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 17 2011 01:37 GMT
#17
On August 17 2011 08:57 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change

Haha, thanks, but my Bnet name is actually isn't neobowman :p. But then you would be asking me to change it to that, wouldn't you?

I'll try to find some. Most of my games though, I don't really think about how my opponent did, just how I could've done better.
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 17 2011 11:24 GMT
#18
ty, i vote for Neobowman :D
dr Helvetica <3
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC Evo League
13:00
#18
SteadfastSC220
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
trigger 305
SteadfastSC 220
Rex 93
MindelVK 41
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 43988
Horang2 17211
Flash 1703
Jaedong 1087
Stork 496
BeSt 452
Hyuk 439
Soma 405
Rush 209
Mini 205
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 194
Mong 136
Last 120
Hyun 115
Soulkey 83
Pusan 78
Bonyth 74
EffOrt 71
Aegong 51
Mind 46
Backho 43
sorry 36
Shuttle 36
Shinee 30
sSak 28
Free 27
ToSsGirL 25
910 23
Shine 21
IntoTheRainbow 19
Rock 17
Terrorterran 16
zelot 15
Nal_rA 14
GoRush 14
Movie 12
SilentControl 10
ivOry 7
Icarus 6
Dota 2
qojqva2590
Dendi527
XcaliburYe245
febbydoto12
Counter-Strike
kRYSTAL_4
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King131
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor260
Other Games
singsing2237
B2W.Neo2192
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1089
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 16
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH179
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2126
League of Legends
• Jankos4200
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 14m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
22h 14m
WardiTV Winter Champion…
1d 1h
OSC
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Wardi Open
1d 22h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Online Event
5 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS4
HSC XXVIII
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.