On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
Nothing to do with elitism, he simply has not achieved enough to earn that name.
On July 31 2011 00:35 Bagonad wrote: Something that's really bothering me is the sick sc1 "fanboyism" that's going in pretty much every forum not in the sc2 section, honestly it feels like you're not even a real human if you haven't been into the sc1 scene, with words like "sc2 kiddie" being used to casually, and anytime starcraft 2 is even mentioned, someone quickly links to old sc1 profiles of Nestea and MC to show how terrible they are at a REAL game (Obviously starcraft 2 is a shit game if the top players can't play a completely different game!)
Let sc2 fans call people the "B-word" if they want to, it's dosen't hurt anyone, they simply pay respect to a person with a word used in a game of the same genre.
Anyone into video games must know how it feels to be alienated and looked down upon by people for not liking what they like, just because you love starcraft 1 dosen't mean to have to rampage all over the place yelling how good a game it is and how starcraft 2 is horrible (And opposite),i understand that Teamliquid has been a website focusing entirely on starcraft 1 for years, and you feel like strangers are moving into the neightbourhood,but please leave people to their own buisness, can't we all just get along?
The problem is most people dont want the term associated with people who couldnt even hold a positive record in BW (Mc/Zergbong(nestea))and are dominating sc2 just on the fact its an easier game, and want the term reserved for the the 4 gods of Broodwar.
Personally i feel the exact same way as most people
I guarantee if you look into the personal history of every BW bonjwa, you'll find something they sucked at too. Being successful in a BW career need not be the determiner or whether someone is good at videogames. I'd say going from someone who doesn't spread creep and dies in round 1 (hi, Zergbong) to obliterating the competition suggests that the top SC2 players have improved their play.
On July 31 2011 00:19 ShadeR wrote: Neither of you guys understood the OP. The point is that the title Bonjwa grew from sAviOr and is specific to BW. It isn't elitism, more ... grammar. Zergbong is Bonjwa in an SC2 context makes as much sense as Zergbong is Bodonkawonk.
Oh and it's just not good enough for you that a term originating in SC1 might carry over to SC2?
No the term cannot carry over. If it does, you may as well be calling Federer Bonjwa....shit just doesn't make sense. And if i do give you that i could carry over the false equivalence it makes between savior and zergbong is insulting and i don''t even like savior im a huge FBH fan ^^.
I think it's up to the SC2 fans to choose their term and who qualifies, not BW.
This is an international game, I don't care if Koreans use it, if the rest of the world does I am behind it. This is a new scene that will likely not see 18+ months of total domination like BW for a long long time.
To disqualify people because "they don't meet the requirements in BW" is irrelevant.
haha, I'll never get tired of reposting my essay explaining the origins of "Bonjwa" and why it's a dead concept. No shame in tooting my own horn here, this is probably the best English summary you'll find on the internet ^_^.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
If NesTea is a bonjwa of SC2, then mbr2321 is truly a bonjwa of ignorance!
i care. and it shows disrespect to those who actually deserved the title. furthermore, bonjwa actually started and ended with savior. not even flash is called a bonjwa even though he's had a longer reign of dominance than all the bonjwas.
people can compliment others. you can call nestea the best player. you can call him awesome. but why try to call him bonjwa when the term clearly does not apply?
also i wonder if you even know the actual definition of bonjwa seeing how you're not korean.
I did look it up, and part of the definition is that someone's Bonjwa status is determined by his reign and depending on how many Korean people think someone deserves the Bonjwa status.
That effectively gives it no meaning whatsoever.
I don't see you complaining whenever someone's called handsome that you don't find handsome? Even though, since you don't think that person's handsome, calling that person handsome is showing disrespect to those who actually "deserve" to be called handsome?
How in the hell does the term bonjwa CLEARLY not apply? Just because YOU think the INCREDIBLY ARBITRARY line should be placed higher than where Nestea is at, doesn't mean other people think the same way. My God, the arrogance....
no... i dont think you understand the actual meaning of bonjwa. read waxangel's amazing post about it above you. "Starcraft fans co-opted the word Bonjwa (본좌), which had been floating around the internet for a while as a term for one who has mastery over some field. " also there are criterions as he stated, which are force and achievements/influence.
There is meaning to it because it's the name the Koreans gave to the 4 most influential, most successful, and most dominant players in the history of the game.
Boxer really popularized broodwar and had great success with innovative strategies. pretty much the father of broodwar. without him broodwar would never have been as popular as it was/is and there might not even have been e-sports. iloveoov changed the way to play the game with his new macro style of play. his amazing macro just overwhelmed other players and he was arguably the most dominant player in broodwar ever during his reign. the 27-0 tvz win streak just talks for itself. Nada was just dominant and with a hefty 6 osl's/msl's (tied for #1 with flash) he is no doubt one of the most dominant players ever. he also had a crazy consistency being in the kespa top 30 for god knows how long (iirc over 4 years?) he also has the most total osl/msl finals appearances. Savior... 3hatch muta totally changed the zvt matchup and he was just as good at zvp. his use of defiler was insane and i remember his winning % was something insane like 80%.
now these are just things i remember off the top of my head, there are tons more reasons why these guys deserved a special title. it's like the 4 kings of broodwar.
the term bonjwa doesn't work like the way you think. you dont just give the term to a really good player (not even flash is bonjwa). who knows, there might be sc2 bonjwas but right now is WAY too early to even think about it.
also, try to compare Nestea's accomplishments to these guys. it doesn't even compare. his 3gsl wins weren't near as impressive as those listed above and there have been 9 GSL's in not even a full year. only 4 OSL/MSL's total per year (most of the bonjwas won all or nearly all their OSL/MSL's within a year and they have less chances than nestea and have tougher competition).
nestea is just lacking in everything that a bonjwa has. his achievements are subpar compared to the other bonjwa's. he also does not have much "force". If nestea plays anyone, is he downright 100% favored to win? I don't think so. I have seen alot of discussion in the sc2 forums and people are still debating whether nestea is better than MC/MVP. has nestea influenced his game like the bonjwas have? i doubt it.
i dont complain if someone calls someone else handsome because it's a proper term to use and is nearly 100% subjective. it's also a common adjective. i don't get why sc2 people are trying to use an exclusive, foreign term when there is a plethora of other ways to describe great players. you're trying to force a key into a hole that doesn't fit.
lastly, you're just trying to make everything subjective. bonjwa isn't AS subjective as you think. it's just ignorant to go "lol this guy is really good so imma call him bonjwa even though i dont know what the hell it means, all i know is that bonjwas were really good". its not our arrogance thats causing the issue here, it's the ignorance of yours and others.
Interesting that you bring up Waxangel's article, because I did read it after I posted what you are replying to here.
"As for the first criteria of Bonjwa theory, it came from an all too convenient bit of coincidence. Nada, Oov, and Savior all had four or more league wins, and at least one MSL and OSL win each. That bit of coincidence led many to try in vain to figure out further objective criteria for Bonjwa theory, but no other statistical criteria could be agreed upon by the masses."
There we have "criteria" number 1. Note the last sentence right there.
"The second criterion of ‘force’ was used to explain away the loose ends, but would also cause controversy in the future. Force indicated the aura, presence, or any intangible feeling of dominance a player exuded. It was by nature a subjective standard, and it would later be seen that only under the special circumstances of Bonjwa theory’s invention could people come to an agreement that the first four Bonjwas had the requisite force."
"Criteria" number 2. Don't have much to say about this one, can someone say subjective HIHO?
"Bonjwa theory’s arbitrary and subjective nature became apparent from the beginning, with the induction of Boxer as the first in its line. Boxer had only three league wins to his name, and perhaps some people thought, not quite the air of dominance of the succeeding three Bonjwas. However, Boxer’s incredible influence in the formation of the e-sports industry made him too respected a figure to leave out of any historical pantheon, and it was a simple matter to shoehorn him into the Bonjwa line."
Well well, doesn't this part look a bit fermilliar to my post? I present to you straight up evidence for the subjective nature of the term.
"With both players a win away from fulfilling the gold medals condition, fans began some of the most vicious and heated arguments in the history of the community over whether or not Jaedong or Bisu should be inducted into the Bonjwa line if they were to get that fourth tournament win. It quickly became apparent that the ‘force’ criterion was something no one would ever agree upon again. It had been a near miracle that Savior carried so much popular support at the time of his coronation, something the newer generation would be hard pressed to repeat. By the time Jaedong fulfilled the Bonjwa win quota, the constant bickering over Bonjwa theory had caused a lot fatigue. While diehard supporters of specific players continued to argue their cases, Bonjwa theory for the most part had devolved into typical internet trollbait."
Even more evidence that the Bonjwa term is subjective.
Come on man, you'd have to be blind not to see these things. Your imaginary standard means nothing to me, and I will call my silver league buddy a bonjwa if I want to.
Just because you __FEEL__ that Nestea's achievements are not enough for him to be called a Bonjwa doesn't mean you have the right to tell others not to call him that either.
This feels exactly like the imba discussions or religious discussions. People come up with all their little anecdotal evidence, yet when someone brings up the real stats (As shown earlier in this thread) it turns out that things aren't as black and white as you seem to think.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
NESTEA HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD NEED AT LEAST 3 MORE GSL WINS TO BE CONSIDERED A BONJWA.
If the man himself thinks he hasn't come close to deserving it, then he isn't a bonjwa no matter what you think.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
If NesTea is a bonjwa of SC2, then mbr2321 is truly a bonjwa of ignorance!
I don't give a hoot about BW, and I'm one of the biggest Nestea fans around, but come on, he isn't a bonjwa. He's the best player at the moment, but from what I've gathered, he won't become one until he can continue this level of play for a while, and play some more games against "the best," such as MC, MVP, etc, even if, curiously enough, they haven't been able to get far enough to face him.
I'm not even going to tell you how irritated I get when I see people make bw and sc2 comparisons. But when someone drops bonjwa in a thread about a year old game.. I pass irritated and have to stop myself from flaming them.
Once I referred to a poster are the bonjwa of posting. That day I learned that I should never use that word lightly. I wish everyone who still does lightly toss around that title has a personal experience that teaches them not to be so cavalier with it.
I think I see a trend here. People that only watch NesTea when he's in the Ro8 and up are calling him a bonjwa. The rest of us are quietly distancing ourselves.
I love Nestea. He's my favorite SC2 gamer bar none. But
On July 31 2011 21:03 RPR_Tempest wrote:
NESTEA HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD NEED AT LEAST 3 MORE GSL WINS TO BE CONSIDERED A BONJWA.
Well then krndandaman, I'll reply to your points individually.
"1) your only argument is that the term bonjwa is subjective. that's very weak because no one here is denying that the term bonjwa is very subjective. however, since the term bonjwa came forth from savior and later boxer, iloveoov, nada, we now have a means of objectively comparing and evaluating who should be a bonjwa to a certain extent. right now, you're arguing that bonjwa is no more than a mere common adjective such as "handsome" or "best" or "good" when that's certainly not the case. it's a very specific term meant for very specific people."
I disagree, the statistics show that Boxer was given the title because he is a "legend", not because of any objective comparisson to the other 3. I could for example consider Nestea's 0 games dropped GSL win pretty legendary.
"2) are you saying you feel that nestea's achievements are bonjwa worthy? im sorry, but thats just ignorance."
Holy fuck are you missing the point. I'm clearly not saying that, I'm argueing for free use of the word Bonjwa without people like you going all anal about it. I am not here to give my own narrow-minded view on who is a bonjwa and who is not.
"3) please do bring the real stats. it doesn't matter because nestea's stats are miniscule compared to the bonjwas"
I was referring to the stats that do not involve Nestea, this isn't about him, I simply use him as an example sometimes since he's the best SC2 has to offer at the moment. What I ment to point out with that last sentence is that the stats show that you don't necesarrily have to have X wins to be "worthy" enough to be called a bonjwa. And that it's not as easy as simply comparing one's achievements to those of starcraft 1 bonjwas.
On a final note I feel that there's plenty of grey area to work with for anyone who feels that MC, Nestea, Jaedong, Flash or whoever the hell else is a bonjwa to publicly call them bonjwas.
Calling bullshit on that kind of feels like you're being the guy that points out that a compliment is not legit and that that 5 year old is not actually "really good at soccer"
In my eyes that's when you're straight up being just a dick.
EPT
