i'm ranting because i think it's time we put an end to this. you all know which one i'm talking about.
i'm sick and tired of seeing everyone throwing the word around randomly. as a poster said it on here
On July 30 2011 18:46 Canucklehead wrote: Well my bw elitist friend said koreans stopped using the (term) years ago and only foreigners use that term now.
He told me it started and stopped with Savior, then retroactively applied it to boxer, nada, etc. Then after that they don't use (that term) anymore. Flash is called God Young Ho."
can we all just leave it to rest? especially when applying it to the sc2 scene. i'd rather see everyone using ridiculous words like 'goat' or 'best mother fucking player ever', rather than that specific term which defined savior's (and retrospectively, boxer, nada and oov)'s spells of dominance.
I don't think the term should be banned, but I do think that it is in no way applicable to the SC2 scene in the future. Maybe sometime later, one of these will appear for SC2. But it's hardly been a year, and nobody has matched the level of dominance that savior, etc. exerted over BW. I feel like overuse of this word is causing it to lose meaning.
In all seriousness I agree with OP (also why is ur name in red are u a mod or something?), calling sc2 players the BW ord is such a farce. Intrigue would agree with me.
On July 30 2011 19:04 FrostyZerg wrote: You mean Elitist? As the E word? Isn't that the TL. Forum's mission statement? I could be wrong.
I didn't even follow BW but it doesn't matter. It's painfully obvious that sc2 is not developed enough, and no player is developed enough for anything close to that level. I feel like anyone who wants to lay claim to that title needs an absolute grasp of every aspect of the game and perfect execution of their understanding. Long way to go...
thank god someone of importance made this thread. >.>
I twitch everytime *insert really good player here* wins and people immediately start suggesting "bonjwa?" it reminds me of those seagulls from Finding Nemo.
I have no issue with this. One MASSIVE issue in tennis is the use of "GOAT", indeed. I'm sure the term is applied (to massively annoying effect) in many other sports, but is especially in tennis and in starcraft...here's to the death of that word.
So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Wheres Jaedong?
The tyrant, the legend killer, was never dominating enough to be considered a bonjwa.
Sc2 kids wont know this however, seeing how the only thing they know about the bw scene are the names of TBLS. If they did they would understand how significant the title bonjwa is.
On July 30 2011 19:03 infinitestory wrote: I feel like overuse of this word is causing it to lose meaning.
You do realize every time someone asks 'X = BONJWA???' he gets resoundingly shut down by the rest of TL? This includes with regards to all the recent finals winners.
It's not being applied, so you can't say it's losing meaning.
its cause every biased fanboy used it in BW. It was never serious, we would just scream PERFECTMAN BONJWA as a joke or something or like me, i claim that Hydra will be bonjwa 1 day. I guess it isnt a sacred word anymore lol
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Wheres Jaedong?
The tyrant, the legend killer, was never dominating enough to be considered a bonjwa.
Sc2 kids wont know this however, seeing how the only thing they know about the bw scene are the names of TBLS. If they did they would understand how significant the title bonjwa is.
LOL piss off, I've been here watching BW for years. I just really like Jaedong's playstyle and seeing how he used to kick ass and he's the biggest rival for Flash...
On July 30 2011 19:40 Kenpachi wrote: its cause every biased fanboy used it in BW. It was never serious, we would just scream PERFECTMAN BONJWA as a joke or something or like me, i claim that Hydra will be bonjwa 1 day. I guess it isnt a sacred word anymore lol
Ya this too.
People are just throwing it around enthusiastically, but the way people are acting is as if the community had declared everyone who won a game bonjwa. If we took LR threads seriously, every unit in the game would be imbalanced and every player would be bm.
I agree that people need to chill with it (same as words like imba) though.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Wheres Jaedong?
The tyrant, the legend killer, was never dominating enough to be considered a bonjwa.
Sc2 kids wont know this however, seeing how the only thing they know about the bw scene are the names of TBLS. If they did they would understand how significant the title bonjwa is.
LOL piss off, I've been here watching BW for years. I just really like Jaedong's playstyle and seeing how he used to kick ass and he's the biggest rival for Flash...
Don't call me a sc2 kiddy.
Well, i think you would know jaedong was never bonjwa :s.. Even bisu fanboys know he was never bonjwa
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Yeah it is, because BoxeR was when the entire genre itself was in its infant stage, not just BW. There will NEVER be another player like BoxeR, because there will never again be a "first," even if new iterations of SC come out.
Also, BoxeR was still a contender in starleagues till 2004-2005. His last strong appearance in OSL was during 2005 when he lost in the finals to anytime, if I remember correctly. That's a good 5+ years of quality playing.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
WAT?
Boxer won the WCG Twice
Boxer was ranked #1 KesPa 17 consecutive months. SC2 hasn't even been out for that long.
Also bear in mind, that the B word was given to them because they dominated the scene and their massive contributions to it. The term was given retroactively after a brilliant career. No, it's not elitist whining. It's a fair complaint that the word is being used out of context.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Wheres Jaedong?
The tyrant, the legend killer, was never dominating enough to be considered a bonjwa.
Sc2 kids wont know this however, seeing how the only thing they know about the bw scene are the names of TBLS. If they did they would understand how significant the title bonjwa is.
talking about the Broodwar TLPD you can find the potential B words of Nestea and MC there because they are listed.
The only way people will stop (incorrectly) using the term "bonjwa" is if its definition is integrated into the TL Rules and the mods start warning people who use it seriously for SC2 players. (And if such a thing seems too severe, then we're just gonna have to live with people being ignorant )
Otherwise, there's no serious chance of it stopping; it pisses me off too.
100percent agree. I have not been around for long but I understand why the it can't be applicable in SC2 for a few years. It actually makes me a little sick when people use it
On July 30 2011 20:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The only way people will stop (incorrectly) using the term "bonjwa" is if its definition is integrated into the TL Rules and the mods start warning people who use it seriously for SC2 players. (And if such a thing seems too severe, then we're just gonna have to live with people being ignorant )
Otherwise, there's no serious chance of it stopping; it pisses me off too.
But then people will just say there are double standards between the BW and SC2 parts of TL. There's no chance of it going in the rules anytime soon. I just don't know... There will never be one in SC2, the game simply doesn't allow it.
On July 30 2011 20:04 101toss wrote: You guys are right, we shouldn't call players like MC + Show Spoiler +
B-teamers
ROFL.
I wasn't aware that the maesto's undoing killed the term in Korea, but if the origin of the word is dead, then I agree we shouldn't make it into something it's not. - Not that I really ever used it to begin with though.
I only watch and play sc2 now, dont watch or play bw anymore, and it still disgusts me how sc2 players are being called bonjwa. Its a different game, it makes as much sense to call a halo or cod player bonjwa.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
Are you kidding me? Boxer won 3 titles in a row and was the #1 ranked player in the world for 17 months, longer than SC2 has existed. This was back when tournaments were held even further apart than they are in broodwar right now -- which is about 3 months, so even more back then. GSL has a championship on a monthly basis and Nestea has 3? How are you even comparing them. Nestea hasn't even been the undisputed best player for three months (remember, guys, when MC was bonjwa? And MVP before that?), much less over a year like Boxer was before Nada came into the picture.
guh, comparing to boxer i just argh
I'm not as much as a stickler as other BW forumgoers on the usage of the term bonjwa for SC2 -- it's only natural SC2 would adopt some language from its parent game, but the game has not been out long enough to even compare to any of the Bonjwa's reigns, and the tournament scene is so rapidfire and hectic that it's a hard comparison to make. When Nestea is the undisputed best player for over a year, then you can start discussing it, at best.
I wish R1ch could programme something to ban this combination of letters from teamliquid, or send electroshocks to those typing it out. And I don't even understand how it did catch on in SC2, who were those idiots that transfered the term to the sc2 forums? It's seldom that I am that annoyed by something on the internet.
the main issue why sc2 bonjwas dont look as bonjawie as SCBW ones did is because of the importance of proleague. SCBW teams actually fight for winning those while in SC2 people use it as a training ground for least experienced members of the team.
On July 30 2011 18:46 Canucklehead wrote: Well my bw elitist friend said koreans stopped using the (term) years ago and only foreigners use that term now.
He told me it started and stopped with Savior, then retroactively applied it to boxer, nada, etc. Then after that they don't use (that term) anymore. Flash is called God Young Ho."
can we all just leave it to rest? especially when applying it to the sc2 scene. i'd rather see everyone using ridiculous words like 'goat' or 'best mother fucking player ever', rather than that specific term which defined savior's (and retrospectively, boxer, nada and oov)'s spells of dominance.
good grief.
The fans can throw around the B word all they want. I don't see a real B until the game gets more complicated (and it definitely will).
I see the word ESPORTS being spammed randomly in the Sc2 forums and its pretty annoying really. Like esports is only sc2/started with sc2? I really wonder, what do these ESPORTS spammers really think is ESPORTS? Is it juz sc2 or includes other games like BW, CS, Quake and others i missed out? If these people really cared bout esports, I dont think we'll see BW bashing. I guess I went off topic with my rant...
On July 30 2011 21:13 Black[CAT] wrote: I see the word ESPORTS being spammed randomly in the Sc2 forums and its pretty annoying really. Like esports is only sc2/started with sc2? I really wonder, what do these ESPORTS spammers really think is ESPORTS? Is it juz sc2 or includes other games like BW, CS, Quake and others i missed out? If these people really cared bout esports, I dont think we'll see BW bashing. I guess I went off topic with my rant...
Totally Dude, without SC2 ESPORTS wouldn't be here at all, without SC2 TL wouldnt exist. (sarcasm obv)
Should just make the term bannable again, in my own opinion comparing b team baddies like IrOn(MC) to gods like Flash/Savior/Oov/Nada/Boxer and call them bonjwa is just revolting truthfully
On July 30 2011 21:13 Black[CAT] wrote: I see the word ESPORTS being spammed randomly in the Sc2 forums and its pretty annoying really. Like esports is only sc2/started with sc2? I really wonder, what do these ESPORTS spammers really think is ESPORTS? Is it juz sc2 or includes other games like BW, CS, Quake and others i missed out? If these people really cared bout esports, I dont think we'll see BW bashing. I guess I went off topic with my rant...
Its a joke from a few years ago, i think maybe the first official TL podcast. But now people don't know the origin of the joke its not really a joke anymore.
On July 30 2011 18:29 ShootingStars wrote: nestea the zerg bonjwa... no one can stop him
wtf....That is like...such an atrocious mis-use of that word...kids these days.... I have no problem with sc2, I even watched MLG just now, but just wtf??!!
I totally agree the stupid Bonthis and bonthats need to stop. as does hurting ESPORTS joke that everyone makes. Its getting old because you use it too much people
On July 30 2011 21:25 kyzers0ze wrote: john is yugioh bonjwa
I thought HiyA was the Yugioh bonjwa.
But I guess "bonjwa" in TL has the same impact as racist words...if you carry it lightly and use it at the right situations where nobody cares it's fine, but when you take it seriously and try to apply it where it doesn't work, terrible things will happen to your family. However, just like those words, I don't want my joking around with extreme words taken away just because some noobs are misusing it. Just keep banning them for screwing around and not respecting the true status of those legends.
Because I don't EVER want anyone depriving me from calling Hyuk a bonjwa after STX Masters 2009. EVER.
talking bout the b-bomb?^^ well I dont think it should be banned totally, but I wouldnt mind if mods warn netizens for overusing it and calling someone (that term), cuz they just saw one set of games, even if it was really well played. You dont go out and demand a golden mouse for a sc2 player, if he just had a good month - so why give him an even more epic title?!
On July 30 2011 21:52 Count9 wrote: 100% agree, need an auto ban system anytime someone posts Bee-suit's name or picture, or votes for him in a poll, this is getting fucking ridiculous.
On July 30 2011 21:52 Count9 wrote: 100% agree, need an auto ban system anytime someone posts Bee-suit's name or picture, or votes for him in a poll, this is getting fucking ridiculous.
A thousand times yes please. I don't even have a problem with there being debate over whether X player is the b word or not, but for all these people who don't even know the meaning, history or context of the term please stick to calling Nestea the best SC2 player in the world.
If the BROODWAR crowd throws that word around in unfitting situations, what do you think will stop the SC2 kids from abusing that term every time a failed B-teamer wins a match?
On July 30 2011 21:52 Count9 wrote: 100% agree, need an auto ban system anytime someone posts Bee-suit's name or picture, or votes for him in a poll, this is getting fucking ridiculous.
I think banning is a tad too harsh, certainly a warning is needed. I don't mind if this word appears 2-3 times a thread, or so, but currently, it's an overused and misunderstood word
It's not like this is new or special phenomenon, it just happens to be tied to an obscure term while in other fields it's the next mj or the next bear/tiger, pele etc and so on and so forth. Although come to think of it banning people on sports forums that use jordan other than talking about jordan himself, especially in regards to 15 year olds would be nice.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
What reign does Nestea have? Boxer played against the very BEST to become the best. Who has Nestea played against? MC? Nope. MVP? Lost in a bo5. Instead he beat Inca in the worst finals in the history of finals and Losira who is a teammate (teamkills always get weird), and MKP who tried to scv-allin every game.
Nestea's accomplishments are great but it isn't anything like what Boxer did. Boxer was the ONLY person who won consecutive OSL titles until it was broken 8 years later. Boxer was a pioneer in a game that didn't have a clear direction like SC2 has.
I just cannot acknowledge Nestea as a bonjwa right now. I have not seen the invincibility Savior and Flash portrays. He is a very, very consistent player playing with a bunch of failed BW gamers that are inconsistent in SC2. He is the best, but not a bonjwa. Not yet at least.
I thought you were going to say "all-in" or "cheese" or "coinflip"... three terms I really wish people would stop using, especially after a zerg loss, you can see all 3 of those pop up in various combinations.
i think its more impressive for nestea too win 3 gsls so early in sc2s life since sc2, is infinitely more fragile than sc1. i only came onto the bw scene during the jaedong vs flash rivalry so i dont really know the meaning of the word, but if nestea gets his 4th and 5th i'd say hes definetly there.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
What reign does Nestea have? Boxer played against the very BEST to become the best. Who has Nestea played against? MC? Nope. MVP? Lost in a bo5. Instead he beat Inca in the worst finals in the history of finals and Losira who is a teammate (teamkills always get weird), and MKP who tried to scv-allin every game.
Nestea's accomplishments are great but it isn't anything like what Boxer did. Boxer was the ONLY person who won consecutive OSL titles until it was broken 8 years later. Boxer was a pioneer in a game that didn't have a clear direction like SC2 has.
I just cannot acknowledge Nestea as a bonjwa right now. I have not seen the invincibility Savior and Flash portrays. He is a very, very consistent player playing with a bunch of failed BW gamers that are inconsistent in SC2. He is the best, but not a bonjwa. Not yet at least.
Hey! Don't shit on MKP, nestea vs MKP was the only single not-one sided rape GSL final.
On July 30 2011 18:46 Canucklehead wrote: Well my bw elitist friend said koreans stopped using the (term) years ago and only foreigners use that term now.
He told me it started and stopped with Savior, then retroactively applied it to boxer, nada, etc. Then after that they don't use (that term) anymore. Flash is called God Young Ho."
can we all just leave it to rest? especially when applying it to the sc2 scene. i'd rather see everyone using ridiculous words like 'goat' or 'best mother fucking player ever', rather than that specific term which defined savior's (and retrospectively, boxer, nada and oov)'s spells of dominance.
I expected more than this argueing over some arbitrary title. Who the hell cares if a bunch of people consider Nestea a bonjwa?!
It's definition makes it a subjective term. You might as well all be argueing about whether or not the color blue is pretty or not.
Who are you to decide not yet Setzer? You seem to try to draw an objective conclusion out of nothing but subjective data and an arbitrary line. Sitting there and pointing your finger like only you decide strikes me as straight up absurd, especially considering the extremely large subjective factor in this matter.
In my opinion this is not a matter of who should be called a bonjwa, simply because that cannot be objectively determined.
For all I care you call your silver league buddy a bonjwa. Let people compliment other people, I don't see a reason to complain about that, other than to straight up be an asshole.
Shit... That graph of iloveoov is so sick. I hope he comes back in sc2 <3
I'm not really bothered by this people say so much stupid stuff this does not stand out for me. Always with the comparisons. Broodwar was like this sc2 is like that and blablabla.
Different times are always different times and different games will be different games.
On July 30 2011 22:36 BLinD-RawR wrote: usage of the B-word incorrectly should give people warnings/2day bans.
Haha, I concur. I remember reading (a long time ago) a post or thread of some sort stating that you shouldn't use that word... haven't used that word in a post ever (at least from what I remember).
But in this case, I want people to look at not only the limited results that IMNesTea has produced in professional play, but look at the gameplay. I say do not only look to the three GSL victories NesTea has, nor even that two of those victories were 4-0 finishes, nor even that, in the most recent win, NesTea didn't drop a single map throughout the whole tournament. NesTea has, in the finals of a GSL, beat all three races, and in these games, he is out-classing his opponent.
NesTea didn't cheese InCa and LosirA 4 times in a row, he beat them straight up, showcasing exactly why he is the best in the world, exactly why I have never bet against him in LiquiBet, exactly why-- and I feel not only justification, but pride in the next six words I will write-- he is the first StarCraft2 Bonjwa.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
What reign does Nestea have? Boxer played against the very BEST to become the best. Who has Nestea played against? MC? Nope. MVP? Lost in a bo5. Instead he beat Inca in the worst finals in the history of finals and Losira who is a teammate (teamkills always get weird), and MKP who tried to scv-allin every game.
Nestea's accomplishments are great but it isn't anything like what Boxer did. Boxer was the ONLY person who won consecutive OSL titles until it was broken 8 years later. Boxer was a pioneer in a game that didn't have a clear direction like SC2 has.
I just cannot acknowledge Nestea as a bonjwa right now. I have not seen the invincibility Savior and Flash portrays. He is a very, very consistent player playing with a bunch of failed BW gamers that are inconsistent in SC2. He is the best, but not a bonjwa. Not yet at least.
I'm not saying Nestea should be called a bonjwa right now, I don't think he is either. What I think is ridiculous is the idea that the term should NEVER be used in SC2. It's just a fucking word anyway. Right now this is just a big whinefest over a word just because of elitist attitudes towards SC2, and the argument about SC2 being young is pointless because it will always be 'young' to the elitists, as BW will always be older. SC2 is much more refined after its first year than SC1 was after its first year, but that seems to be completely ignored.
I've been following BW since BoxeR won WCG in 2001, but just because I like BW doesn't mean I'm going to pretend SC2 is terrible and ignore all the amazing stuff its doing for esports on a global level. I'm just sick to death of BW elitists closing their eyes, calling people who switch from BW to SC2 'traitors' and all the other shit that is constantly going on in the BW forums on TL lately.
But in this case, I want people to look at not only the limited results that IMNesTea has produced in professional play, but look at the gameplay. I say do not only look to the three GSL victories NesTea has, nor even that two of those victories were 4-0 finishes, nor even that, in the most recent win, NesTea didn't drop a single map throughout the whole tournament. NesTea has, in the finals of a GSL, beat all three races, and in these games, he is out-classing his opponent.
NesTea didn't cheese InCa and LosirA 4 times in a row, he beat them straight up, showcasing exactly why he is the best in the world, exactly why I have never bet against him in LiquiBet, exactly why-- and I feel not only justification, but pride in the next six words I will write-- he is the first StarCraft2 Bonjwa.
On July 30 2011 19:32 stafu wrote: So it's okay that BoxeR was bonjwa when the game was in it's infant stage and very unrefined, but not okay for Nestea when SC2 is young? and if this has something specifically to do with savior, that's even more sad. For what it's worth, I'm a BW fan through and through, but this is just ridiculous pedantic elitist whining, 100%.
Aditionally, BoxeR's reign didn't last for that long. Nestea will be coming up on similar length in the near future. All I hear is wah fucking wah.
What reign does Nestea have? Boxer played against the very BEST to become the best. Who has Nestea played against? MC? Nope. MVP? Lost in a bo5. Instead he beat Inca in the worst finals in the history of finals and Losira who is a teammate (teamkills always get weird), and MKP who tried to scv-allin every game.
Nestea's accomplishments are great but it isn't anything like what Boxer did. Boxer was the ONLY person who won consecutive OSL titles until it was broken 8 years later. Boxer was a pioneer in a game that didn't have a clear direction like SC2 has.
I just cannot acknowledge Nestea as a bonjwa right now. I have not seen the invincibility Savior and Flash portrays. He is a very, very consistent player playing with a bunch of failed BW gamers that are inconsistent in SC2. He is the best, but not a bonjwa. Not yet at least.
I'm not saying Nestea should be called a bonjwa right now, I don't think he is either. What I think is ridiculous is the idea that the term should NEVER be used in SC2. It's just a fucking word anyway. Right now this is just a big whinefest over a word just because of elitist attitudes towards SC2, and the argument about SC2 being young is pointless because it will always be 'young' to the elitists, as BW will always be older. SC2 is much more refined after its first year than SC1 was after its first year, but that seems to be completely ignored.
I've been following BW since BoxeR won WCG in 2001, but just because I like BW doesn't mean I'm going to pretend SC2 is terrible and ignore all the amazing stuff its doing for esports on a global level. I'm just sick to death of BW elitists closing their eyes, calling people who switch from BW to SC2 'traitors' and all the other shit that is constantly going on in the BW forums on TL lately.
Neither of you guys understood the OP. The point is that the title Bonjwa grew from sAviOr and is specific to BW. It isn't elitism, more ... grammar. Zergbong is Bonjwa in an SC2 context makes as much sense as Zergbong is Bodonkawonk.
Something that's really bothering me is the sick sc1 "fanboyism" that's going in pretty much every forum not in the sc2 section, honestly it feels like you're not even a real human if you haven't been into the sc1 scene, with words like "sc2 kiddie" being used to casually, and anytime starcraft 2 is even mentioned, someone quickly links to old sc1 profiles of Nestea and MC to show how terrible they are at a REAL game (Obviously starcraft 2 is a shit game if the top players can't play a completely different game!)
Let sc2 fans call people the "B-word" if they want to, it's dosen't hurt anyone, they simply pay respect to a person with a word used in a game of the same genre.
Anyone into video games must know how it feels to be alienated and looked down upon by people for not liking what they like, just because you love starcraft 1 dosen't mean to have to rampage all over the place yelling how good a game it is and how starcraft 2 is horrible (And opposite),i understand that Teamliquid has been a website focusing entirely on starcraft 1 for years, and you feel like strangers are moving into the neightbourhood,but please leave people to their own buisness, can't we all just get along?
Giving respect to someone who's only been the consensus #1 player for a 4-5 non consecutive months in a year old game is disrespecting players who have been the undoubted number one for much over a year in a 10 year gold game. It's not insulting to SC2 -- as long as it's good enough to stick around it will eventually reach this kind of history and designation -- but the term was scantly used on the absolutely most exceptional players. only 5 in 11 years of play. In another year or so, if there's someone who's clearly been over the rest the whole time, you can start using it with proper context.
It's not because SC2 is too "bad" for the term, it's because SC2 is too young. If BW were to do it as fast as SC2 fans are, then Giyom would've been a bonjwa, because he was practically unbeatable when it first came out. Let the wine breathe, mates.
On July 31 2011 00:35 Bagonad wrote: Something that's really bothering me is the sick sc1 "fanboyism" that's going in pretty much every forum not in the sc2 section, honestly it feels like you're not even a real human if you haven't been into the sc1 scene, with words like "sc2 kiddie" being used to casually, and anytime starcraft 2 is even mentioned, someone quickly links to old sc1 profiles of Nestea and MC to show how terrible they are at a REAL game (Obviously starcraft 2 is a shit game if the top players can't play a completely different game!)
Let sc2 fans call people the "B-word" if they want to, it's dosen't hurt anyone, they simply pay respect to a person with a word used in a game of the same genre.
Anyone into video games must know how it feels to be alienated and looked down upon by people for not liking what they like, just because you love starcraft 1 dosen't mean to have to rampage all over the place yelling how good a game it is and how starcraft 2 is horrible (And opposite),i understand that Teamliquid has been a website focusing entirely on starcraft 1 for years, and you feel like strangers are moving into the neightbourhood,but please leave people to their own buisness, can't we all just get along?
lol it's posts like these... you just don't even understand
and i'm trying so hard not to type in caps right now .
fully support warns for using the word in sc2.
also: Lol what if i applied your logic to the N word? if i just use it how i want, it shouldn't hurt anyone, it's just a word anyways... lol no you can't just do that sorry.
On July 31 2011 00:59 TheNessman wrote: also: Lol what if i applied your logic to the N word? if i just use it how i want, it shouldn't hurt anyone, it's just a word anyways... lol no you can't just do that sorry.
People aren't offended by the word (at least not intelligent people...), they are offended by the intention and context.
1) Saying "you stupid nigger" to a black person is almost always deemed offensive.
2) A black person saying "nigger" to another black person does not (in many cases, not always of course; I don't speak in absolutes) carry an offensive tone (a term of endearment, etc.).
3) Having a discussion with someone about words and offensive, and using the word (like I am here) generally does not offend.
In the first situation, the intention behind the word (to insult and offend) causes it to be "offensive".
In the second and third, it is generally not considered offensive because there is no negative intention behind it. It is simply used in a different context.
I personally don't find any words offensive, but I understand that some do. I do not feel any word should ever offend, but rather, the intention of the speaker.
Calling someone a "dumb idiot" should be as offensive as calling someone a "stupid fucking piece of shit", but it isn't, because we're raised to believe "these letters, when put together, are offensive". It is an arbitrary distinction.
No word is inherently more offensive than another. That isn't how language works. However, the power we give to the word ("I deem this offensive") does.
Sorry to rant, but I hate seeing people arbitrarily consider certain words "inappropriate".
NOTE: I am not involved in the discussion of the thread. This is completely directed towards your post. I hope you understand that none of this is meant to "flame", but rather, make a point.
People are using the term too much, but you can't deny the fact that some posters are actually overreacting to people using. Not you GTR, or specifically anyone in this thread, but I've seen a few posts here and there where people go batshit insane over the term.
Why can't we just take over the term and use it with our own definition? I don't get why you have to limit the term to early BW. We can adopt it as the foreign scene and make it into something new and meaningful in its own way.
It was like people getting mad that KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen were called the Big Three. Who cares man lighten up, they won championships they deserve it too. Kinda funny to say that cuz I fucking hate them, especially Allen.
On July 31 2011 01:55 Zim23 wrote: Why can't we just take over the term and use it with our own definition? I don't get why you have to limit the term to early BW. We can adopt it as the foreign scene and make it into something new and meaningful in its own way.
It was like people getting mad that KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen were called the Big Three. Who cares man lighten up, they won championships they deserve it too. Kinda funny to say that cuz I fucking hate them, especially Allen.
Bonjwa is a term used to describe a player who dominates the StarCraft scene for a long period of time. A Bonjwa typically has an incredibly high winning-percentage and many successive title wins. Each Bonjwa has won 3 titles in the course of one year.
If you are unsatisfied with that definition of the word then by all means create your very own original word. DO NOT take the title of bonjwa and warp it into something to describe mediocre play, or flash-in-the-pan dominance. Be a little more respective to players who have actually earned that prestigious title and stop throwing it around like candy.
On July 31 2011 00:19 ShadeR wrote: Neither of you guys understood the OP. The point is that the title Bonjwa grew from sAviOr and is specific to BW. It isn't elitism, more ... grammar. Zergbong is Bonjwa in an SC2 context makes as much sense as Zergbong is Bodonkawonk.
Oh and it's just not good enough for you that a term originating in SC1 might carry over to SC2?
On July 31 2011 00:19 ShadeR wrote: Neither of you guys understood the OP. The point is that the title Bonjwa grew from sAviOr and is specific to BW. It isn't elitism, more ... grammar. Zergbong is Bonjwa in an SC2 context makes as much sense as Zergbong is Bodonkawonk.
Oh and it's just not good enough for you that a term originating in SC1 might carry over to SC2?
On July 31 2011 00:35 Bagonad wrote: Something that's really bothering me is the sick sc1 "fanboyism" that's going in pretty much every forum not in the sc2 section, honestly it feels like you're not even a real human if you haven't been into the sc1 scene, with words like "sc2 kiddie" being used to casually, and anytime starcraft 2 is even mentioned, someone quickly links to old sc1 profiles of Nestea and MC to show how terrible they are at a REAL game (Obviously starcraft 2 is a shit game if the top players can't play a completely different game!)
Let sc2 fans call people the "B-word" if they want to, it's dosen't hurt anyone, they simply pay respect to a person with a word used in a game of the same genre.
Anyone into video games must know how it feels to be alienated and looked down upon by people for not liking what they like, just because you love starcraft 1 dosen't mean to have to rampage all over the place yelling how good a game it is and how starcraft 2 is horrible (And opposite),i understand that Teamliquid has been a website focusing entirely on starcraft 1 for years, and you feel like strangers are moving into the neightbourhood,but please leave people to their own buisness, can't we all just get along?
The problem is most people dont want the term associated with people who couldnt even hold a positive record in BW (Mc/Zergbong(nestea))and are dominating sc2 just on the fact its an easier game, and want the term reserved for the the 4 gods of Broodwar.
Personally i feel the exact same way as most people
These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
If NesTea is a bonjwa the word is meaningless and dozens of players are bonjwas.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
Nestea has dominated for ... less than 5 months. Before he won GSL May it was these same people calling MC the first SC2 bonjwa. Dominance has to extend longer than that to even be considered.
Flash made two finals TWICE IN A ROW and still wasn't crowed until after he won his 5th title. You cannot just dominate the lower-level progamers. You have to dominate EVERYONE, that includes the second best player. For Flash, that was Jaedong. For Boxer, that was Yellow.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
The OP is a giant faggot, which means he is a giant bundle of sticks.
Because we all know, that the meaning of a word is not subject to alteration as time passes, and the culture revolving the term changes.
I understand how you feel threatened because your game gets slowly but steadily replaced by it's predecessor, but you should just embrace the fact that there is a whole new community surrounding a whole new game and elitism an conservatism by ESPORTS-fossils is uncalled for.
On July 31 2011 07:54 caruso wrote: ... because your game gets slowly but steadily replaced by it's predecessor...
Great news!
You can't deny that the Occident has embraced SC2 in a way that Broodwar never experienced. Tournaments and prizepools are much larger and more frequent, there are some team houses in EU/NA and even ACTUAL professional gamers.
Just look at the explosion of Team Liquid since the launch of SC2.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
NesTea won two tournaments recently. He hasn't beaten MC since neither of them were near the top, he's never beaten MVP, he's never beaten Polt, he's never beaten Alicia or Puzzle or Huk or Dongraegu. He beat Losira and Bomber, who are good but that barely scratches the surface of "dominating the scene". And he lost to TOP, who's done nothing since winning Code A.
These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
The only place a concerted reactionary fight to keep down the SC2 scene exists is in your mind. Or do victim complexes help ESPORTS in some way now?
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
iloveoov won 37 TvZ games in a row, went undefeated 5-0 in Starleague finals and led his team to the proleague championship twice. Flash made it into 6 finals in a row, 7 if you count WCG, and carried his team to the WL and PL championships, all with a severe wrist injury. it's downright disrespectful to those players to put Nestea on the same level for winning 3 tournaments vs creampuff opponents.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
Lmao, when korean netizens hear this... all hell will break lose.
On July 31 2011 07:54 caruso wrote: The OP is a giant faggot, which means he is a giant bundle of sticks.
Because we all know, that the meaning of a word is not subject to alteration as time passes, and the culture revolving the term changes.
I understand how you feel threatened because your game gets slowly but steadily replaced by it's predecessor, but you should just embrace the fact that there is a whole new community surrounding a whole new game and elitism an conservatism by ESPORTS-fossils is uncalled for.
User was temp banned for this post.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a 30 days ban right here.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
I am just going to post here before I sleep. If you're going to take a word that was coined in the BW era, you're darn well going to be ridiculed by if you go and use that word incorrectly.
Do you understand what that word even means? I highly doubt it. To truly be at the top of everyone, you have to crush them and exert dominance and innovate. Nestea is a good player no doubt, but his plays are not what I would call revolutionary. Boxer is remembered for his micro and daring play especially with dropships and bio. Oov was the macro monster who could cheat armies out of nowhere and pioneered macro heavy play. Nada was the Tornado Terran who used his blistering micro with extremely well planned timing attacks to be the most winningest player. Saviour's mindgames and builds were beyond his time and still today aren't fully replicated by other players. Nestea just plays solidly and is a good player but he's hardly a legend.
The GSL is uninspiring and still hardly top-tier. Sure, in today's standards it's one of the hardest tournaments. But then again, the 2001 OSL was the highest level of SB:BW play 10 years ago filled with really bright minds but we laugh at how bad a lot of the games are now (like, what, D- ICCUP stuff?).
If you want to compare Nestea to Saviour, I want you to show me games where he wins against some of the best vZ players, the most innovative players to exist and win on imbalanced maps and continue to do so consistently.
If you have not already, read this and realise just how dominant the legends of old were. Then go look up Oov and Nada and see their pioneering achievements and innovations.
by now bw vs sc2 fuels itself I doubt any of the parties involved actually care about the games that much, you can kind of tell by the posts that the argument exists because of the general feeling that there is an argument. kind of sad tbh
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
How dare you.
Who do you think you are to say that?
No one in SC2 is a bonjwa. You are completely delusional and just plain wrong. Please shut up and think about what you say before you actually say it.
This is the kind of elitism that people are talking about. You are either on a very high horse or you are a bad troll. I absolutely thought about what I was going to write before I wrote it, and I would like to issue a similar challenge to you: watch NesTea's play, watch him dominate the entire StarCraft II scene, and then try to swallow your irrational pride and give IMNesTea the respect he deserves.
Nothing to do with elitism, he simply has not achieved enough to earn that name.
On July 31 2011 00:35 Bagonad wrote: Something that's really bothering me is the sick sc1 "fanboyism" that's going in pretty much every forum not in the sc2 section, honestly it feels like you're not even a real human if you haven't been into the sc1 scene, with words like "sc2 kiddie" being used to casually, and anytime starcraft 2 is even mentioned, someone quickly links to old sc1 profiles of Nestea and MC to show how terrible they are at a REAL game (Obviously starcraft 2 is a shit game if the top players can't play a completely different game!)
Let sc2 fans call people the "B-word" if they want to, it's dosen't hurt anyone, they simply pay respect to a person with a word used in a game of the same genre.
Anyone into video games must know how it feels to be alienated and looked down upon by people for not liking what they like, just because you love starcraft 1 dosen't mean to have to rampage all over the place yelling how good a game it is and how starcraft 2 is horrible (And opposite),i understand that Teamliquid has been a website focusing entirely on starcraft 1 for years, and you feel like strangers are moving into the neightbourhood,but please leave people to their own buisness, can't we all just get along?
The problem is most people dont want the term associated with people who couldnt even hold a positive record in BW (Mc/Zergbong(nestea))and are dominating sc2 just on the fact its an easier game, and want the term reserved for the the 4 gods of Broodwar.
Personally i feel the exact same way as most people
I guarantee if you look into the personal history of every BW bonjwa, you'll find something they sucked at too. Being successful in a BW career need not be the determiner or whether someone is good at videogames. I'd say going from someone who doesn't spread creep and dies in round 1 (hi, Zergbong) to obliterating the competition suggests that the top SC2 players have improved their play.
On July 31 2011 00:19 ShadeR wrote: Neither of you guys understood the OP. The point is that the title Bonjwa grew from sAviOr and is specific to BW. It isn't elitism, more ... grammar. Zergbong is Bonjwa in an SC2 context makes as much sense as Zergbong is Bodonkawonk.
Oh and it's just not good enough for you that a term originating in SC1 might carry over to SC2?
No the term cannot carry over. If it does, you may as well be calling Federer Bonjwa....shit just doesn't make sense. And if i do give you that i could carry over the false equivalence it makes between savior and zergbong is insulting and i don''t even like savior im a huge FBH fan ^^.
I think it's up to the SC2 fans to choose their term and who qualifies, not BW.
This is an international game, I don't care if Koreans use it, if the rest of the world does I am behind it. This is a new scene that will likely not see 18+ months of total domination like BW for a long long time.
To disqualify people because "they don't meet the requirements in BW" is irrelevant.
haha, I'll never get tired of reposting my essay explaining the origins of "Bonjwa" and why it's a dead concept. No shame in tooting my own horn here, this is probably the best English summary you'll find on the internet ^_^.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
If NesTea is a bonjwa of SC2, then mbr2321 is truly a bonjwa of ignorance!
i care. and it shows disrespect to those who actually deserved the title. furthermore, bonjwa actually started and ended with savior. not even flash is called a bonjwa even though he's had a longer reign of dominance than all the bonjwas.
people can compliment others. you can call nestea the best player. you can call him awesome. but why try to call him bonjwa when the term clearly does not apply?
also i wonder if you even know the actual definition of bonjwa seeing how you're not korean.
I did look it up, and part of the definition is that someone's Bonjwa status is determined by his reign and depending on how many Korean people think someone deserves the Bonjwa status.
That effectively gives it no meaning whatsoever.
I don't see you complaining whenever someone's called handsome that you don't find handsome? Even though, since you don't think that person's handsome, calling that person handsome is showing disrespect to those who actually "deserve" to be called handsome?
How in the hell does the term bonjwa CLEARLY not apply? Just because YOU think the INCREDIBLY ARBITRARY line should be placed higher than where Nestea is at, doesn't mean other people think the same way. My God, the arrogance....
no... i dont think you understand the actual meaning of bonjwa. read waxangel's amazing post about it above you. "Starcraft fans co-opted the word Bonjwa (본좌), which had been floating around the internet for a while as a term for one who has mastery over some field. " also there are criterions as he stated, which are force and achievements/influence.
There is meaning to it because it's the name the Koreans gave to the 4 most influential, most successful, and most dominant players in the history of the game.
Boxer really popularized broodwar and had great success with innovative strategies. pretty much the father of broodwar. without him broodwar would never have been as popular as it was/is and there might not even have been e-sports. iloveoov changed the way to play the game with his new macro style of play. his amazing macro just overwhelmed other players and he was arguably the most dominant player in broodwar ever during his reign. the 27-0 tvz win streak just talks for itself. Nada was just dominant and with a hefty 6 osl's/msl's (tied for #1 with flash) he is no doubt one of the most dominant players ever. he also had a crazy consistency being in the kespa top 30 for god knows how long (iirc over 4 years?) he also has the most total osl/msl finals appearances. Savior... 3hatch muta totally changed the zvt matchup and he was just as good at zvp. his use of defiler was insane and i remember his winning % was something insane like 80%.
now these are just things i remember off the top of my head, there are tons more reasons why these guys deserved a special title. it's like the 4 kings of broodwar.
the term bonjwa doesn't work like the way you think. you dont just give the term to a really good player (not even flash is bonjwa). who knows, there might be sc2 bonjwas but right now is WAY too early to even think about it.
also, try to compare Nestea's accomplishments to these guys. it doesn't even compare. his 3gsl wins weren't near as impressive as those listed above and there have been 9 GSL's in not even a full year. only 4 OSL/MSL's total per year (most of the bonjwas won all or nearly all their OSL/MSL's within a year and they have less chances than nestea and have tougher competition).
nestea is just lacking in everything that a bonjwa has. his achievements are subpar compared to the other bonjwa's. he also does not have much "force". If nestea plays anyone, is he downright 100% favored to win? I don't think so. I have seen alot of discussion in the sc2 forums and people are still debating whether nestea is better than MC/MVP. has nestea influenced his game like the bonjwas have? i doubt it.
i dont complain if someone calls someone else handsome because it's a proper term to use and is nearly 100% subjective. it's also a common adjective. i don't get why sc2 people are trying to use an exclusive, foreign term when there is a plethora of other ways to describe great players. you're trying to force a key into a hole that doesn't fit.
lastly, you're just trying to make everything subjective. bonjwa isn't AS subjective as you think. it's just ignorant to go "lol this guy is really good so imma call him bonjwa even though i dont know what the hell it means, all i know is that bonjwas were really good". its not our arrogance thats causing the issue here, it's the ignorance of yours and others.
Interesting that you bring up Waxangel's article, because I did read it after I posted what you are replying to here.
"As for the first criteria of Bonjwa theory, it came from an all too convenient bit of coincidence. Nada, Oov, and Savior all had four or more league wins, and at least one MSL and OSL win each. That bit of coincidence led many to try in vain to figure out further objective criteria for Bonjwa theory, but no other statistical criteria could be agreed upon by the masses."
There we have "criteria" number 1. Note the last sentence right there.
"The second criterion of ‘force’ was used to explain away the loose ends, but would also cause controversy in the future. Force indicated the aura, presence, or any intangible feeling of dominance a player exuded. It was by nature a subjective standard, and it would later be seen that only under the special circumstances of Bonjwa theory’s invention could people come to an agreement that the first four Bonjwas had the requisite force."
"Criteria" number 2. Don't have much to say about this one, can someone say subjective HIHO?
"Bonjwa theory’s arbitrary and subjective nature became apparent from the beginning, with the induction of Boxer as the first in its line. Boxer had only three league wins to his name, and perhaps some people thought, not quite the air of dominance of the succeeding three Bonjwas. However, Boxer’s incredible influence in the formation of the e-sports industry made him too respected a figure to leave out of any historical pantheon, and it was a simple matter to shoehorn him into the Bonjwa line."
Well well, doesn't this part look a bit fermilliar to my post? I present to you straight up evidence for the subjective nature of the term.
"With both players a win away from fulfilling the gold medals condition, fans began some of the most vicious and heated arguments in the history of the community over whether or not Jaedong or Bisu should be inducted into the Bonjwa line if they were to get that fourth tournament win. It quickly became apparent that the ‘force’ criterion was something no one would ever agree upon again. It had been a near miracle that Savior carried so much popular support at the time of his coronation, something the newer generation would be hard pressed to repeat. By the time Jaedong fulfilled the Bonjwa win quota, the constant bickering over Bonjwa theory had caused a lot fatigue. While diehard supporters of specific players continued to argue their cases, Bonjwa theory for the most part had devolved into typical internet trollbait."
Even more evidence that the Bonjwa term is subjective.
Come on man, you'd have to be blind not to see these things. Your imaginary standard means nothing to me, and I will call my silver league buddy a bonjwa if I want to.
Just because you __FEEL__ that Nestea's achievements are not enough for him to be called a Bonjwa doesn't mean you have the right to tell others not to call him that either.
This feels exactly like the imba discussions or religious discussions. People come up with all their little anecdotal evidence, yet when someone brings up the real stats (As shown earlier in this thread) it turns out that things aren't as black and white as you seem to think.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
NESTEA HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD NEED AT LEAST 3 MORE GSL WINS TO BE CONSIDERED A BONJWA.
If the man himself thinks he hasn't come close to deserving it, then he isn't a bonjwa no matter what you think.
On July 31 2011 07:11 mbr2321 wrote: These conservative, reactionary BW people keep fighting against the SC2 scene. This kind of nit-pickkery over a word, a single word, bonjwa, calls images of 70 year-old's yelling at kids to get off their lawn and reminiscing fondly over "the good old days" to the mind -- let it go. NesTea is a bonjwa.
If NesTea is a bonjwa of SC2, then mbr2321 is truly a bonjwa of ignorance!
I don't give a hoot about BW, and I'm one of the biggest Nestea fans around, but come on, he isn't a bonjwa. He's the best player at the moment, but from what I've gathered, he won't become one until he can continue this level of play for a while, and play some more games against "the best," such as MC, MVP, etc, even if, curiously enough, they haven't been able to get far enough to face him.
I'm not even going to tell you how irritated I get when I see people make bw and sc2 comparisons. But when someone drops bonjwa in a thread about a year old game.. I pass irritated and have to stop myself from flaming them.
Once I referred to a poster are the bonjwa of posting. That day I learned that I should never use that word lightly. I wish everyone who still does lightly toss around that title has a personal experience that teaches them not to be so cavalier with it.
I think I see a trend here. People that only watch NesTea when he's in the Ro8 and up are calling him a bonjwa. The rest of us are quietly distancing ourselves.
I love Nestea. He's my favorite SC2 gamer bar none. But
On July 31 2011 21:03 RPR_Tempest wrote:
NESTEA HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD NEED AT LEAST 3 MORE GSL WINS TO BE CONSIDERED A BONJWA.
Well then krndandaman, I'll reply to your points individually.
"1) your only argument is that the term bonjwa is subjective. that's very weak because no one here is denying that the term bonjwa is very subjective. however, since the term bonjwa came forth from savior and later boxer, iloveoov, nada, we now have a means of objectively comparing and evaluating who should be a bonjwa to a certain extent. right now, you're arguing that bonjwa is no more than a mere common adjective such as "handsome" or "best" or "good" when that's certainly not the case. it's a very specific term meant for very specific people."
I disagree, the statistics show that Boxer was given the title because he is a "legend", not because of any objective comparisson to the other 3. I could for example consider Nestea's 0 games dropped GSL win pretty legendary.
"2) are you saying you feel that nestea's achievements are bonjwa worthy? im sorry, but thats just ignorance."
Holy fuck are you missing the point. I'm clearly not saying that, I'm argueing for free use of the word Bonjwa without people like you going all anal about it. I am not here to give my own narrow-minded view on who is a bonjwa and who is not.
"3) please do bring the real stats. it doesn't matter because nestea's stats are miniscule compared to the bonjwas"
I was referring to the stats that do not involve Nestea, this isn't about him, I simply use him as an example sometimes since he's the best SC2 has to offer at the moment. What I ment to point out with that last sentence is that the stats show that you don't necesarrily have to have X wins to be "worthy" enough to be called a bonjwa. And that it's not as easy as simply comparing one's achievements to those of starcraft 1 bonjwas.
On a final note I feel that there's plenty of grey area to work with for anyone who feels that MC, Nestea, Jaedong, Flash or whoever the hell else is a bonjwa to publicly call them bonjwas.
Calling bullshit on that kind of feels like you're being the guy that points out that a compliment is not legit and that that 5 year old is not actually "really good at soccer"
In my eyes that's when you're straight up being just a dick.
On August 01 2011 16:43 Linkirvana wrote: Well then krndandaman, I'll reply to your points individually.
"1) your only argument is that the term bonjwa is subjective. that's very weak because no one here is denying that the term bonjwa is very subjective. however, since the term bonjwa came forth from savior and later boxer, iloveoov, nada, we now have a means of objectively comparing and evaluating who should be a bonjwa to a certain extent. right now, you're arguing that bonjwa is no more than a mere common adjective such as "handsome" or "best" or "good" when that's certainly not the case. it's a very specific term meant for very specific people."
I disagree, the statistics show that Boxer was given the title because he is a "legend", not because of any objective comparisson to the other 3. I could for example consider Nestea's 0 games dropped GSL win pretty legendary.
"2) are you saying you feel that nestea's achievements are bonjwa worthy? im sorry, but thats just ignorance."
Holy fuck are you missing the point. I'm clearly not saying that, I'm argueing for free use of the word Bonjwa without people like you going all anal about it. I am not here to give my own narrow-minded view on who is a bonjwa and who is not.
"3) please do bring the real stats. it doesn't matter because nestea's stats are miniscule compared to the bonjwas"
I was referring to the stats that do not involve Nestea, this isn't about him, I simply use him as an example sometimes since he's the best SC2 has to offer at the moment. What I ment to point out with that last sentence is that the stats show that you don't necesarrily have to have X wins to be "worthy" enough to be called a bonjwa. And that it's not as easy as simply comparing one's achievements to those of starcraft 1 bonjwas.
On a final note I feel that there's plenty of grey area to work with for anyone who feels that MC, Nestea, Jaedong, Flash or whoever the hell else is a bonjwa to publicly call them bonjwas.
Calling bullshit on that kind of feels like you're being the guy that points out that a compliment is not legit and that that 5 year old is not actually "really good at soccer"
In my eyes that's when you're straight up being just a dick.
And i have a right to ask you what your smoking if you going to lump zergbong, savior, flash, iron, oov, mvp and boxer together. There are standards and criterion.
I disagree, the statistics show that Boxer was given the title because he is a "legend", not because of any objective comparisson to the other 3. I could for example consider Nestea's 0 games dropped GSL win pretty legendary.
Boxer dominated, utterly and completely dominated, Broodwar for nearly a year and a half. He "only" won 3 titles because during the vast majority of his reign, the MSL didn't even exist -- he also won 2 WCGs which, back when, were arguably the top tournament as the Korean scene hadn't utterly distanced itself yet. Just, put it in perspective: Boxer dominated Broodwar for longer than SC2 has existed. If you're picking on Boxer as the "least" of the Bonjwas, then just compare that to Nestea. How long has Nestea been the undisputed best player? It can't have been more than the past handful of months. That's not even a fourth of how long Boxer was the undisputed the #1 player.
Holy fuck are you missing the point. I'm clearly not saying that, I'm argueing for free use of the word Bonjwa without people like you going all anal about it. I am not here to give my own narrow-minded view on who is a bonjwa and who is not.
I am the greatest thinker of all time. See, it's subjective, and you can't really prove me wrong, because when you go back in time to compare me to the true geniuses of all time I'll just tell you to stop being anal about it. Free use of a term in a vastly incorrect context is silly and bad.
I was referring to the stats that do not involve Nestea, this isn't about him, I simply use him as an example sometimes since he's the best SC2 has to offer at the moment. What I ment to point out with that last sentence is that the stats show that you don't necesarrily have to have X wins to be "worthy" enough to be called a bonjwa. And that it's not as easy as simply comparing one's achievements to those of starcraft 1 bonjwas.
You're most certainly right. The term Bonjwa widely applies to players with ridiculous winrates over long periods of times. The accomplishments and number of wins are a by product of that.
On a final note I feel that there's plenty of grey area to work with for anyone who feels that MC, Nestea, Jaedong, Flash or whoever the hell else is a bonjwa to publicly call them bonjwas.
No, there isn't. The only way you could start calling anyone from SC2 a bonjwa right now is if they were clearly the best player since release and still are. It's almost implicitly about the time that goes into being a dominant force. If you could become a bonjwa after just being the best for 4 months then there would be dozens of BW bonjwas instead of just 5 -- and hell, some people say only 4 because they don't think the term works for Flash, who has utterly blown away the past Bonjwa's accomplishments. The term is hard to live up to.
Calling bullshit on that kind of feels like you're being the guy that points out that a compliment is not legit and that that 5 year old is not actually "really good at soccer"
In my eyes that's when you're straight up being just a dick.
You're missing the forest for the trees, mate. It would be like saying "That 5 year old is clearly the greatest soccer player in the world, without dispute." It's not that it's a nice compliment, it's literally a title anointed to very accomplished and amazing players. Sure, it's "just" a compliment, but it's a ridiculous and inapplicable one for the situation, and it's a compliment that has a history behind it that people care about.
that word obviously holds a very deifferent meaning if you use it in a sc2 context or a bw context. sc2 real fans, that want to make the game shine, should not hold onto the "broodwar traditions", but instead construct sc2 legacy on fresh bases. Trying to apply the bw 12 years of history onto the 1 year old sc2 is just going to end up in arguments between the 2 comunitys
Agreed, calling Nestea or other players the 'b' word is no where neat to the truth, not because he isn't amazing or anything, but rather just because the game hasn't been around long enough for there to be a bonjwa.
Bonjwa is a term that's just used for 4 people (Boxer, nada, oov, savior). Calling every other person that has a good streak for a few months "bonjwa" is like calling every NBA player that plays well for a while (wade, lebron, rose, etc) the "goat".
On August 01 2011 19:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Boxer dominated, utterly and completely dominated, Broodwar for nearly a year and a half. He "only" won 3 titles because during the vast majority of his reign, the MSL didn't even exist -- he also won 2 WCGs which, back when, were arguably the top tournament as the Korean scene hadn't utterly distanced itself yet. Just, put it in perspective: Boxer dominated Broodwar for longer than SC2 has existed. If you're picking on Boxer as the "least" of the Bonjwas, then just compare that to Nestea. How long has Nestea been the undisputed best player? It can't have been more than the past handful of months. That's not even a fourth of how long Boxer was the undisputed the #1 player.
Fair enough. There's a clear difference between Boxer's SC1 achievements and Nestea's SC2.
I am the greatest thinker of all time. See, it's subjective, and you can't really prove me wrong, because when you go back in time to compare me to the true geniuses of all time I'll just tell you to stop being anal about it. Free use of a term in a vastly incorrect context is silly and bad.
I disagree. People use exaggerated compliments all the time. Yet Bonjwa seems to be the one where everybody gets anal about. I disagree with your analogy as well, this whole thing is about complimenting someone else, not yourself. If you were to call someone the greatest thinker of all time over say, not walking into that pile of shit, I would not go and point out why I think that person is not the greatest thinker of all time. Cause I'd be going anal about it wouldn't you agree?
No, there isn't. The only way you could start calling anyone from SC2 a bonjwa right now is if they were clearly the best player since release and still are. It's almost implicitly about the time that goes into being a dominant force. If you could become a bonjwa after just being the best for 4 months then there would be dozens of BW bonjwas instead of just 5 -- and hell, some people say only 4 because they don't think the term works for Flash, who has utterly blown away the past Bonjwa's accomplishments. The term is hard to live up to.
Again I must concede, fair enough. However I still feel that saying something like "amagad Losira bonjwa" should be perfectly fine.
You're missing the forest for the trees, mate. It would be like saying "That 5 year old is clearly the greatest soccer player in the world, without dispute." It's not that it's a nice compliment, it's literally a title anointed to very accomplished and amazing players. Sure, it's "just" a compliment, but it's a ridiculous and inapplicable one for the situation, and it's a compliment that has a history behind it that people care about.
Your analogy proves my point. Disagreeing with that is being an asshole. Everybody knows that it's an exaggerated compliment.
Pointing it out seems weird, very weird. Asking for these people to get as much as a ban over such a statement is even more weird.
If 1 of your friends called your other friend (Who happends to be in silver league) a bonjwa, for succesfully doing something silly as a 4gate rush, would you be that guy who sits there and explains exactly the standards for a bonjwa?
Clearly I am exaggerating in my arguments, because I understand it becomes less about being an asshole as people are more serious about their statement regarding "Person X is a bonjwa" and more about just being right. However considering the immense room for disagreement when it comes to the term Bonjwa I feel that triggering a barrage of anecdotal evidence by for example pointing out that "person X is not really a Bonjwa, only SaviOr was!" still makes you look like a bit of a douchebag because quite frankly, that person is not going to care.
While I feel the term is completely, insanely, unbelievably, ridiculously overused nowaday and it should definitely start earning people warnings or something for tossing it out there every goddamn 5 seconds...
I also feel like there are huge portions of the BW population that act like EVER using that word in reference to sc2 is an actrocity even if it's like a future dated statement which i find offensive as a former BW fanatic to a newly sc2 fanatic.
I feel like there are both extremes and not nearly enough people in the middle who are being reasonable about it, soo many fair weather sc2 fans are screaming the word from the rooftops every single time someone wins a few tournaments and then you have BW guys coming into the threads just going crazy bashing the hell out of them for using it. Both sides need to chill the hell out in their respective nonsensical areas.
If Nestea wins like 6 GSLs in a year, MAYBE MAYBE if he has shown just overwhelming dominance we can use it, til then. STFU both sides.
I disagree. People use exaggerated compliments all the time. Yet Bonjwa seems to be the one where everybody gets anal about. I disagree with your analogy as well, this whole thing is about complimenting someone else, not yourself. If you were to call someone the greatest thinker of all time over say, not walking into that pile of shit, I would not go and point out why I think that person is not the greatest thinker of all time. Cause I'd be going anal about it wouldn't you agree?
The thing is, it's not just an exaggerated compliment. It's a large number of people trying to legitimately apply a title. I don't care that much about people using it in jest, but the problem is that people are stone cold seriously trying to say these guys are Bonjwas. If I were, in absolutely serious fashion saying I'm the greatest thinker of all time, you'd obviously correct me.
And it's not just hostility to SC2. In the BW forums, we get in completely ridiculous, flamewar worthy argument over whether or not Flash and Jaedong are Bonjwas, and we used to do it about Bisu. It's taken very seriously for our community.
Again I must concede, fair enough. However I still feel that saying something like "amagad Losira bonjwa" should be perfectly fine.
Yeah, no one should care about that unless it happens en masse and picks up steam, because that causes discussion which enforces a serious tone.
Your analogy proves my point. Disagreeing with that is being an asshole. Everybody knows that it's an exaggerated compliment.
Pointing it out seems weird, very weird. Asking for these people to get as much as a ban over such a statement is even more weird.
If 1 of your friends called your other friend (Who happends to be in silver league) a bonjwa, for succesfully doing something silly as a 4gate rush, would you be that guy who sits there and explains exactly the standards for a bonjwa?
Clearly I am exaggerating in my arguments, because I understand it becomes less about being an asshole as people are more serious about their statement regarding "Person X is a bonjwa" and more about just being right. However considering the immense room for disagreement when it comes to the term Bonjwa I feel that triggering a barrage of anecdotal evidence by for example pointing out that "person X is not really a Bonjwa, only SaviOr was!" still makes you look like a bit of a douchebag because quite frankly, that person is not going to care.
Again, you miss my point. People are annoyed at these things being said in a serious context, and people actually arguing that Nestea is up to Bonjwa standards. If I were, in an absolutely serious manner, saying a 5 year old was truly Messi's rival as a soccer player, then I'd be daft and you'd be right to call me wrong. This is different from using it in jest or using it as encouragement. In a legitimate discussion, the SC2 forums need to cool down on proclaiming dudes bonjwa in a serious way, atleast for another year or so (and that's only if SOMEONE who's been dominant previously in this first year of SC2 completely dominates the next year. Finnicky requirements). There's still debate on whether Flash is a bonjwa or not after his past year and a half, no way anyone who hasn't won every single GSL could be bonjwa in sc2 yet.
On August 03 2011 07:49 Cwall wrote: it's obvious that these broodwar fanboys don't pay attention to the sc2 competitive scene at all
nestea is obviously the bonjwa of koreans atm and the bonjwa of non-koreans would probably have to be naniwa
Oh god I can't stop laughing at the pure ignorance of this post, and this is coming form someone who started following this from SC2, though i have started to watch PL couple of month ago.
Finally that thread got closed. I dont have the urge to post 1 million posts on all the other sc2 thread in an attempt to send the b_____ thread to oblivion!
On August 03 2011 07:49 Cwall wrote: it's obvious that these broodwar fanboys don't pay attention to the sc2 competitive scene at all
nestea is obviously the bonjwa of koreans atm and the bonjwa of non-koreans would probably have to be naniwa
You need to edit your post right now before someone see's it. You have no idea what that word even means do you? Literally, you aren't just using it at an inappropriate time, your using it incorrectly.
I'd prefer this term remain one that is used referring to BW. As a sc2 community, I think we need to come up with our own term if and when we get a player somewhere down the road that shows the same dominance over a very entended period of time then we can start coming up with our own term to use and leave that B word sacred to BW.
These are video games, not a religion. Applying blasphemy to a video game is really pretty absurd. Nothing is holy on the internet.
Let's add it to the TL list of commandments:
"Thou shall not speak the B-Word in vain."
With a disclaimer reading something along the lines of: "You who are new, you do not and you shall not ever appreciate nor understand the epic proportions of epicness that was the history of SC1. It contains holy shrines that can not be trespassed upon by lowly uninitiated mortals. You will treat it with reverence and respect and will not challenge the elite Brood War priests, and you shall not attempt to use their sacred words lightly."
As far as dominance in SC2 goes, I don't think there's ANYONE who just goes so far above and beyond everyone else that he/she is always considered the favorite to win every game. In my opinion, anything to the contrary is just hype at this point, but that could change sometime in the future.
I'd be more inclined to label Nestea as a Maestro than the B word. It's an endearing term, respectful, and seems to fit with his creative and solid style that has resulted in dominance of his opponents recently.
On August 03 2011 07:49 Cwall wrote: it's obvious that these broodwar fanboys don't pay attention to the sc2 competitive scene at all
nestea is obviously the bonjwa of koreans atm and the bonjwa of non-koreans would probably have to be naniwa
Hey Mr.18-posts, have you read the TL Ten Commands? Maybe you should, eh?
Maybe you also should do some research on the origins of that term before throwing it everywhere. For your information, I do keep track of GSL / GSTL as well as major foreign tournaments (recently MLG Anaheim).
I'm still waiting to be proven wrong on this but from what I've seen in the StarCraft 2 professional scene, the game wasn't very well designed for someone to dominate it for a long length of time. In fact all those small conveniences that exist in SC2 but not in BW are direct tools that prevent that from happening. Allows for much more focus since not everyone can rapid fire 300 APM for 20 minutes straight.
I still call NaDa that word though only because I'm a die-hard fan.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/7/75/5Bonjwa.png/640px-5Bonjwa.png)
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![[image loading]](http://www.hellomagazine.com/imagenes/profiles//jon-bon-jovi/352-jon-bon-jovi-pb.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/TLFE/saviordifference.png)
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