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Hi reader,
This is my first post (except in the practice partner thread), I'm creating this blog because I feel very confused in my SC2 performance.
A year ago I bought the retail version and after 1 week I hit platinum ( I had som wc3 experience). Since then I've been playing regularly but I can't seem to get out of platium leauge.
I've played a little over 1000 ladder 1v1 games as P and I still: get steamrolled by terran all ins, outmacroed by zerg and I still feel like pvp is a coinflip.
Now to what makes my confused "everyone" on TL says that you only have to work on your mechanics and macro "and you will hit diamond in notime" but so far that hasn't worked for me. I feel that what is more important to win games is to understand what your opponent is doing and that is something that I find very very hard.
Example: In PvT I know that it's important to scout gas timings and how many marines, so I send my probe and see a standard gas and one marine before tech-lab then I have to send probe back. But then what? For all I know he could be BC-rushing me or fast expanding.
What I'm trying to say is that I always seem to build the wrong units and not adapt in time. Even tho my workercount is always much higher than my opponent I die.
I'm sorry if this post lacks structure but I really want to get this feeling out of my system.
Anyone feel the same way?
 
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
When you plateau in skill and are no longer improving on your own, you have a number of options:
1) you can purchase coaching from a better player. this is expensive but will help you improve
2) you can get coaching and advice for free from a better player. posting replays and asking for help, or posting questions in the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread in Sc2 Strategy can improve a lot.
3) you can sit down, do some reading, and rethink the way you think about your games. Are you watching every one of your own replays that you lose? Why not? Are you thinking about why you lost, and how you lost, and how you could have won given the information you had, or how you could have gotten the information you needed?
If you want some help, feel free to stop by my group of practice partners, on the North America server in chat channel PEJ. We consist mostly of Master and Diamond league players and are glad to help people out.
EDIT: more specifically, scout the terran player's front with your first stalker+zeal, since you can always get away with these quick units against marines. Depending on whether or not you see marauders, or a wall, or a bunker, or just marines, and what buildings you see near the top of his ramp/choke, you can get a lot of information. And if he has only marines and no bunkers you can get a free marine or two without taking hull damage.
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Well if you posted replays it would help people see what you need to work on. Probably your macro and mechanics though. You really can hit masters if you have pretty good macro and mechanics. You're definitely overlooking something in your macro if you have been trying to improve it and haven't gotten past platinum with it. Maybe not being reactionary enough or relying too much off gimmicks, such as something that will only work in certain situations when you are not fully aware the situation exists or not.
I forgot to add that you should watch all your replays if you really want to improve. You should notice a lot of mistakes. I notice a ton of my mistakes when I watch my own games and I have a really high mmr. Goodluck.
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Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example.
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On July 28 2011 06:16 busone wrote:
Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example.
Basically:
Open a replay -> Find the earliest mistake you can fix -> Play another game where you fix it -> Open that replay -> Find the earliest mistake you made -> Fix that in the next game etc.
Excluding all the "herp derp I split my workers 4-2 instead of 3-3" things
This is not the best method, but if you don't know what to look for, it's the only method you can use. Knowing what to look for we probably cannot teach you because it's so game dependant and all games are unique.
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On July 28 2011 06:15 Medzo wrote:
Well if you posted replays it would help people see what you need to work on. Probably your macro and mechanics though. You really can hit masters if you have pretty good macro and mechanics. You're definitely overlooking something in your macro if you have been trying to improve it and haven't gotten past platinum with it. Maybe not being reactionary enough or relying too much off gimmicks, such as something that will only work in certain situations when you are not fully aware the situation exists or not.
I forgot to add that you should watch all your replays if you really want to improve. You should notice a lot of mistakes. I notice a ton of my mistakes when I watch my own games and I have a really high mmr. Goodluck.
yeah of course my macro isn't perfect but I always play standard and never try to do anything gimmicky. Yeah I should prolly watch more of my replays thanks again =)
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On July 28 2011 05:55 busone wrote:
Now to what makes my confused "everyone" on TL says that you only have to work on your mechanics and macro "and you will hit diamond in notime" but so far that hasn't worked for me. I feel that what is more important to win games is to understand what your opponent is doing and that is something that I find very very hard.
First of all, consider the source when you hear things like this. I've noticed that a lot of the times it's a player who has been in either diamond or masters (whichever was highest at the time) since the game came out. I remember doing my 1v1 placement in September and 5 roach-rushing my way into platinum. I was demoted to gold when I started playing around with macro strategies. The entire time I'd hear things like "master basic mechanics" and "you were D+ on iccup, so you should hit diamond in no time". Can this get you to a higher league? Yes. Is it the only thing that will get you to a higher league? No.
I started playing again a month and a half ago. Gold ladder is surprisingly difficult given how TL'ers talk about it. I've played 100 games since June 25 and almost all my opponents had a clear game-plan, a practiced build, and decent execution. Some of them even had spectacular macro! It took me those 100 games to get promoted to Plat. I have a buddy who was in silver three months ago. He put in some good practice and was promoted to gold and then plat with only about 100 games. It then took ~300 more games to get into diamond. This is hardly "no time"! It took a lot of effort and hard work!
There are two huge aspects that went in to improving my play. The first was basic mechanics and macro (stealing a build order from a pro, learning the key points of the strategy, refined the crap out of it against AI, watched my replays to see how my unit totals match theirs at given times, and watching how the pro's strategy evolves over time...in addition to expanding a lot, making drones and units, not missing overlords, and improving queen injects). The second was learning how to interpret my scouting and my opponent's plan. I lost to 5 rax marine all-ins all the time a month ago. Through replays I learned how to interpret done and ling scouting. I thought "what could help?" and started trying ideas. Now I hardly ever lose to this all-in. Since it is a lower league, you're going to see a lot of weird strategies, but you've played enough games to know which are more common. My advice is to look for triggers that indicate what your opponent is doing. You can also get pro lessons for this kind of thing, but if it's for basic all-ins then consulting with diamond/masters players should do you well enough to succeed.
Edit: Here's a couple basic tips that have helped me along the way:
* Early aggression sacrifices economy, so it must damage yours to be successful
* Knowing the size of your opponents early/mid game army is important. A bigger army means they sacrificed economy to get it
* If your opponent expands (especially versus terran), then you're PROBABLY ok to expand
* If your opponent is massing units, especially on a lower economy, you should get defenses up immediately!
* Check for proxies during 4 gate timings
* See what add-ons the terran is making
* Get a good read on a zerg's army composition (I play ling/bling and I can't tell you how many tosses I've rolled because they made an anti-roach army blindly)
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On July 28 2011 06:26 Airact wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:16 busone wrote:
Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example. Basically: Open a replay -> Find the earliest mistake you can fix -> Play another game where you fix it -> Open that replay -> Find the earliest mistake you made -> Fix that in the next game etc. Excluding all the "herp derp I split my workers 4-2 instead of 3-3" things This is not the best method, but if you don't know what to look for, it's the only method you can use. Knowing what to look for we probably cannot teach you because it's so game dependant and all games are unique.
thanks! But don't you think that way of analysing replays will make you focus too much on details?
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On July 28 2011 06:34 busone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:26 Airact wrote:On July 28 2011 06:16 busone wrote:
Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example. Basically: Open a replay -> Find the earliest mistake you can fix -> Play another game where you fix it -> Open that replay -> Find the earliest mistake you made -> Fix that in the next game etc. Excluding all the "herp derp I split my workers 4-2 instead of 3-3" things This is not the best method, but if you don't know what to look for, it's the only method you can use. Knowing what to look for we probably cannot teach you because it's so game dependant and all games are unique. thanks! But don't you think that way of analysing replays will make you focus too much on details?
Focusing on details is a great way to improve. If you are a solid player than adopting strategic or tactical differences will be far easier and more rewarding as you go. If you want to improve asap though, just post a replay and we'll give you some advice that will instantly make an impact, although details are most crucial if you want to be solid overall.
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On July 28 2011 06:34 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:55 busone wrote:
Now to what makes my confused "everyone" on TL says that you only have to work on your mechanics and macro "and you will hit diamond in notime" but so far that hasn't worked for me. I feel that what is more important to win games is to understand what your opponent is doing and that is something that I find very very hard. First of all, consider the source when you hear things like this. I've noticed that a lot of the times it's a player who has been in either diamond or masters (whichever was highest at the time) since the game came out. I remember doing my 1v1 placement in September and 5 roach-rushing my way into platinum. I was demoted to gold when I started playing around with macro strategies. The entire time I'd hear things like "master basic mechanics" and "you were D+ on iccup, so you should hit diamond in no time". Can this get you to a higher league? Yes. Is it the only thing that will get you to a higher league? No. I started playing again a month and a half ago. Gold ladder is surprisingly difficult given how TL'ers talk about it. I've played 100 games since June 25 and almost all my opponents had a clear game-plan, a practiced build, and decent execution. Some of them even had spectacular macro! It took me those 100 games to get promoted to Plat. I have a buddy who was in silver three months ago. He put in some good practice and was promoted to gold and then plat with only about 100 games. It then took ~300 more games to get into diamond. This is hardly "no time"! It took a lot of effort and hard work! There are two huge aspects that went in to improving my play. The first was basic mechanics and macro (stealing a build order from a pro, learning the key points of the strategy, refined the crap out of it against AI, watched my replays to see how my unit totals match theirs at given times, and watching how the pro's strategy evolves over time...in addition to expanding a lot, making drones and units, not missing overlords, and improving queen injects). The second was learning how to interpret my scouting and my opponent's plan. I lost to 5 rax marine all-ins all the time a month ago. Through replays I learned how to interpret done and ling scouting. I thought "what could help?" and started trying ideas. Now I hardly ever lose to this all-in. Since it is a lower league, you're going to see a lot of weird strategies, but you've played enough games to know which are more common. My advice is to look for triggers that indicate what your opponent is doing. You can also get pro lessons for this kind of thing, but if it's for basic all-ins then consulting with diamond/masters players should do you well enough to succeed.
Dude thanks alot, this was exactly what i needed to hear. When people talk like it's a piece of cake playing in the lower leauges and that getting promoted shouldn't be a problem it makes you feel like a pretty horrible player when u are on a loosingstreak in a lower leauge.
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On July 28 2011 06:42 busone wrote:
Dude thanks alot, this was exactly what i needed to hear. When people talk like it's a piece of cake playing in the lower leauges and that getting promoted shouldn't be a problem it makes you feel like a pretty horrible player when u are on a loosingstreak in a lower leauge.
Note: I edited in some basic tips for my post. I don't play P like you, but they should help if you don't already do it. I've picked a lot of that up when playing with others.
But yeah, it's always bothered me that a lot of TLers think macro is the ONLY thing that will get you to diamond. Maybe that worked for them in September, but as the game and strategies progressed the level of play in the lower leagues increased. It's not like scaling the cliff that is the D ladder on iccup (well, at least it was before SC2 came out...), but it's not a walk in the park, either. Good luck improving!
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On July 28 2011 06:39 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:34 busone wrote:On July 28 2011 06:26 Airact wrote:On July 28 2011 06:16 busone wrote:
Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example. Basically: Open a replay -> Find the earliest mistake you can fix -> Play another game where you fix it -> Open that replay -> Find the earliest mistake you made -> Fix that in the next game etc. Excluding all the "herp derp I split my workers 4-2 instead of 3-3" things This is not the best method, but if you don't know what to look for, it's the only method you can use. Knowing what to look for we probably cannot teach you because it's so game dependant and all games are unique. thanks! But don't you think that way of analysing replays will make you focus too much on details? Focusing on details is a great way to improve. If you are a solid player than adopting strategic or tactical differences will be far easier and more rewarding as you go. If you want to improve asap though, just post a replay and we'll give you some advice that will instantly make an impact, although details are most crucial if you want to be solid overall.
Here is a replay of me loosing to a terran, If u wanna take a look i would be really happy =): http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Gati_vs_(P)bussen_typhon_peaks_sc2rep_com_20110727/11751
hehe I appologize for the chat... I was a bit tired yesterday, played 30+ games.
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On July 28 2011 06:16 busone wrote:
Ok thanks a lot! I play on EU-server but if i was on NA I would definatly check out your channel. I watch quite a bit of sc2, every daily, some streams and all big tournaments except GSL.
Mayby the key is to watch more of my own replays but I often feel either like it's obvious "lost all my worker to runby" or that I can't spot what I could have done differently, any tips? =)
Thx for the example.
If you lost to a runby, think about what you could have done to scout it earlier, or have been prepared for it, or positioned your army better. If it's just a mechanics problem, then you have to learn to always have your choke point blocked.
Anyway, if you've stayed in platinum over all this time, you've improved a tremendous amount. The skill level has gone up by a lot.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On July 28 2011 06:50 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:42 busone wrote:
Dude thanks alot, this was exactly what i needed to hear. When people talk like it's a piece of cake playing in the lower leauges and that getting promoted shouldn't be a problem it makes you feel like a pretty horrible player when u are on a loosingstreak in a lower leauge. Note: I edited in some basic tips for my post. I don't play P like you, but they should help if you don't already do it. I've picked a lot of that up when playing with others. But yeah, it's always bothered me that a lot of TLers think macro is the ONLY thing that will get you to diamond. Maybe that worked for them in September, but as the game and strategies progressed the level of play in the lower leagues increased. It's not like scaling the cliff that is the D ladder on iccup (well, at least it was before SC2 came out...), but it's not a walk in the park, either. Good luck improving!
It may have been true in September, but it was true in February, too:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7qw9/followup_to_macrostomping_with_mass_stalkers_more/
This guy only made stalkers, never microed, just focused on macro, never scouted (besides a scouting probe at 9 to determine his opponent's location) and every game just expanded at a normal rate, made stalkers, got upgrades (but not blink! dude wasn't allowed to micro!) and attacked-moved with a 200/200 army of stalkers. He didn't start losing games until he was up against diamond league players, and even then we won half of them.
This is because all you really need to get into diamond league, outside of the ability to hold off poorly-executed-cheese, is really really damn good macro. Now, if you just have decent macro, you'll need to supplement that with strategy, micro, tactics and timings; but if you out-macro your opponent, you will win, basically always.
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EPT
