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OH MAN OH BOY
IT'S ANOTHER ONE OF THESE TOPICS
I'll admit I'm highly biased in favor of the Protoss; saying that one right off. -ahem- I feel is that we get cheated just a little tiny bit because two units - that is, carriers and the mothership - are just not that viable in the professional league; it's very hard to make them work. Of course we have seen mothership be used on a number of occasions, namely by the one and only Kiwikaki, but it is still quite rare and I will say I have never, ever, ever seen carriers used. (If anyone can find a pro game where carriers are used TO GOOD EFFECT, send it to me and I will build a shrine in your honor.)
This seems like such a waste. As far as I know (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) the other races do not have units that are just not used or are not part of a viable build. I feel like Blizzard should do some kind of revamp to make these units more use-able (Is that a word? It is now.) because to me, it seems like they're just wasting space. Mostly.
Your thoughts?
EDIT: Perhaps this should have been called diversity issue instead of balance. Forgive me; 'tis three in the morning and I'm not thinking very clearly. The only point I wish to make is that Protoss has gotten stuck with two units that are almost useless, and that makes me sad.
And by the way...who keeps rating my entries one star? >_> If you don't like it, you don't have to read it...
Currently listening to: DimRain47 - Forsaken Neon
  
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the main issue in my opinion why carriers are so useless, is solely due to Corruptors and Vikings. Such small numbers of them can take out carriers so easily, it makes the slow-building high-priced carriers not really worth it, UNLESS you somehow manage to hide your carrier stack until you get 6, then do a surprise attack.
Carriers are way too slow, and dont attack fast enough / enough DPS. Now when your mothership gets out and you can vortex them, it makes it slightly even, but still not at all worth the investment. Carriers are basically reserved for surprise attacks, which is the only way its ever been used in pro games (like Kiwikaki and that other protoss who used it in PvZ, HongUn??)
Anyone whos ever tried to go mass carriers in FFA have seen how useless they are.. thats why better FFA players stick with mass stalker/col/storm
I know it relates to BCs too slightly, as I tried going a BC rush in a recent TvT and got owned by a small number of vikings.. but BCs are at least somewhat beefy and dont die in like 2 hits from 4 vikings.
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Carriers and mothership have their place. The situations that call for them are extremely limited, and almost everytime you get a carrier or mothership you are making a wrong choice.
The game is very well balanced so no changes necessary yet.
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Its not that Carriers and Motherships are bad its that colossus and storm are so ridiculously good. /endzergrant
There's a few pretty redundant things in the game which are just barely ever picked up. Ultras in general are pretty terrible. Terrans have building armor, turret range, hunter seeker missile, durable materials,
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United States24805 Posts
There is a logical problem with your argument: whether or not a race has ineffective units in competitive play does not necessarily affect whether or not a race is balanced. Protoss could have one good unit, and every other unit could suck, and be completely overpowered. You could make an argument for a lack of diversity in protoss play, I guess, but TL really isn't a good place to have this type of conversation as most people don't like sc2 design/balance complaints here.
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The carrier and mothership are very niche units.
Carrier: Late game protoss vs terran along with high templars signifies protoss winning.
Mothership: If you are going for mass harass plays, this unit is essential
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Eh, I would happily see the carrier and mothership completely removed from the game in exchange for EITHER high templar that start with 62 energy like in Brood War or an extra 20 shield on warp prisms lol.
Yeah, the lack of diversity sucks, I'm not fond of protoss either in that respect, but I have to admit that atm the races are pretty close to balanced for the reasons that micronesia mentions. Maybe that'll change when terran and zerg start utilizing the things they underuse (nukes, ravens, nyduses, and ultras to some extent), but until then I can't fairly complain about balance since I always used to point to race win rates but now they all hover around 50%.
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White-ra uses carriers often when he ladders. And to good effect. He's the only player that does so. Also, units like the Carrier and Mothership, (i.e: very situational units) are an integral part of the game. Every race has them. And they are there for a reason.
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I see carriers every so often in multiplayer (though, most 3v3 and 4v4 toss opt for mass void rays)
As for mothership, I was watching Destiny's stream a few days ago and he lost a battle where he had an overwhelming advantage because his protoss opponent used vortex and the mothership's cloaking very effectively. After losing the game he commented on how, when used right, motherships are great, but they're not used by very many protoss players.
Of course I can cry my little zergy eyes out that I don't have a unit that cloaks, but that would be petty :D
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What I realized I hate more than the ineffectiveness of carriers and motherships and the incredibly long period of time when you are very vulnerable while acquiring them are people who don't play protoss and claim these units are good.
No, carriers do not have the highest dps in the game. Thors have about 80% higher dps. Battlecruisers have about 35% higher. Ultralisks have about 60% higher against armored. Immortals attacking armored units have 25% higher, and dts have the same dps. Also, they do NOT scale well with upgrades like people say because your opponent will be ahead on upgrades ( your enemy will get carapace/infantry armor before you get air weapons lol) and each armor upgrade cancels out an air attack upgrade for a carrier. So it's dps will be greatly reduced for each armor upgrade an enemy unit has.
A 3/2 stimmed marine engaging a 0/0 carrier will deal the same dps to the carrier as the carrier will do to it.
Also, as someone mentioned before, unless you have 12 3/3/3 carriers, they will just instantly get crushed by VIKINGS and CORRUPTORS.
Oh yeah, and it's really fun waiting for them to be built for 120 seconds.
Motherships are a bit better when used perfectly. A defensive mothership that mass recalls a group of harassment units is relatively viable, but only in the rare cases where the zerg (or terran) will let you build them. It can also get rid of siege lines temporarily but other things do this more efficiently. The problems with the mothership:
-Since vortex was patched, you can no longer do toilety shenanigans (no one has EVER used that term before lol)
-In PvT cloaking field is nullified by the scan. You can't kill any detectors to make it work.
-In PvZ you can NEURAL the mothership. That's right, the protoss just spent 25 minutes getting this unit and you can take it, get all your units cloaked including the infestor that is stealing it, mass recall reinforcements, vortex his units, etc.
-In PvP it will never appear.
Like I said before, while the races are balanced, these two units specifically are incredibly underpowered and should never be built against a competent opponent.
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Just think of them as the "scout" of SC2. We can only hope that new, fun units will be added in the next 2 expansions.
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The carrier dosen't have much of a space, truely, for air, your voidray is already powerful enough to overshine carriers in every aspect, unless you do some kind of super fast air attack build (Carriers benefit more from attack upgrades than any other unit in the game), and i agree there is no reason to get it really, but protoss already have 15 units compared to terran and zergs 13, so really, it's just a "why not" thing.
I disagree with motherships being weak, it has the ability to instantly remove a large part of the opponents army (Far more than the cost of the mothership), if the opponent retreats, you can catch the trapped army or the retreating army and destroy them, if he moves his entire army intot he vortex, storms and forcefields will rip it apart.
You can also teleport your army to the location of the mothership, this can be used both on both offense and defense, and is a very underused ability, just having a mothership in late-game at home by your third or forth, ready to instantly teleport an army to defend is a big deal.
For the price of 4 sentries and 2 zealots.
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On July 24 2011 17:57 Darclite wrote:
What I realized I hate more than the ineffectiveness of carriers and motherships and the incredibly long period of time when you are very vulnerable while acquiring them are people who don't play protoss and claim these units are good.
No, carriers do not have the highest dps in the game. Thors have about 80% higher dps. Battlecruisers have about 35% higher. Ultralisks have about 60% higher against armored. Immortals attacking armored units have 25% higher, and dts have the same dps. Also, they do NOT scale well with upgrades like people say because your opponent will be ahead on upgrades ( your enemy will get carapace/infantry armor before you get air weapons lol) and each armor upgrade cancels out an air attack upgrade for a carrier. So it's dps will be greatly reduced for each armor upgrade an enemy unit has.
A 3/2 stimmed marine engaging a 0/0 carrier will deal the same dps to the carrier as the carrier will do to it.
Also, as someone mentioned before, unless you have 12 3/3/3 carriers, they will just instantly get crushed by VIKINGS and CORRUPTORS.
Oh yeah, and it's really fun waiting for them to be built for 120 seconds.
Motherships are a bit better when used perfectly. A defensive mothership that mass recalls a group of harassment units is relatively viable, but only in the rare cases where the zerg (or terran) will let you build them. It can also get rid of siege lines temporarily but other things do this more efficiently. The problems with the mothership:
-Since vortex was patched, you can no longer do toilety shenanigans (no one has EVER used that term before lol)
-In PvT cloaking field is nullified by the scan. You can't kill any detectors to make it work.
-In PvZ you can NEURAL the mothership. That's right, the protoss just spent 25 minutes getting this unit and you can take it, get all your units cloaked including the infestor that is stealing it, mass recall reinforcements, vortex his units, etc.
-In PvP it will never appear.
Like I said before, while the races are balanced, these two units specifically are incredibly underpowered and should never be built against a competent opponent.
Naniwa vs Random Fan @ TL Attack 5, Steppes of War
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After over a year one of these units has appeared in two TL Attacks and probably about 10 pro games that mattered. I think that people would have realized it if they are useful.
On July 24 2011 18:47 Bagonad wrote:
I disagree with motherships being weak, it has the ability to instantly remove a large part of the opponents army (Far more than the cost of the mothership), if the opponent retreats, you can catch the trapped army or the retreating army and destroy them, if he moves his entire army intot he vortex, storms and forcefields will rip it apart.
I like how all offensive mothership strategies revolve around on your opponent letting you have all the time you want to tech up and get 4 bases worth of gas. Yeah, just get a ton of sentries, templar tech, storm, and multiple high templar, and all the air tech and a mothership (which btw takes almost 3 minutes to build). And then move out. I wish more players gave me that much time and space lol.
You can also teleport your army to the location of the mothership, this can be used both on both offense and defense, and is a very underused ability, just having a mothership in late-game at home by your third or forth, ready to instantly teleport an army to defend is a big deal.
Fair enough, this is a viable use of the mothership.
For the price of 4 sentries and 2 zealots.
No, the price of not building probes for 3 minutes, getting a stargate, fleet beacon and then this. And the price of safety for 15 minutes, but who needs that, right?
I don't say "get building armor, it's ONLY 3 reapers!" because it is not viable. It is very situational. You could be getting more useful things with your tech and money.
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Blizzard has stated these units are for casual players, not for competitive players. They are just fluff.
Of which Zerg has no similar units. BCs and Thors also serve a similar role. They have their niches, but not really useful at the highest level except in very, very unique games.
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Drewbie played against...... I forget who... was shown on the IPL. Carriers completely destroyed him. like 20 of them. lol but as a Protoss I agree that they are pretty damn bad with most other options giving you an easier win (or a less humiliating defeat) imo just give them their broodwar micro back OR make the upgrade fire all 8 at once instead of still 1 at a time in quick progression. better yet. Both. the damn things cost me an entire mining base in the first place.
All Hail the flying banana's.
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EPT
