Time to break out Vanilla Starcraft

On May 19 2011 05:41 SnowFantasy wrote:
im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them.

On May 19 2011 06:18 Ecrilon wrote:
This experiment is an exercise in math rather than fact. Balance is not tested at such low levels of play. It make little sense to do so, even if you managed to play a million games. A million of the wrong games, with races played as they were never meant to be played, cannot possibly test balance. As a reasonable example, if chess were played largely randomly by those who only knew how to move pieces and knew very little of strategy, I do not believe that white would possess the significant advantage over black that it does in professional play, nor would there be anything like as many draws.

On May 19 2011 05:46 mucker wrote:


Yeah I can't imagine dealing with a good muta build without medics, goliath range or sairs.

What maps do you play on?

On May 19 2011 06:32 xarthaz wrote:

Technically, protoss has cannons as effective counters to it, and to make matters worse for zerg, without lurkers a midgame zealot&archon push can be very very scary to deal with. Remember, before the crackling upgrade there is no unit that can really hold its own against speedlots without lurks to soften them down.

On May 19 2011 06:42 SnowFantasy wrote:


How does protoss protect templars from getting sniped by mutas without corsairs?

Seems like 5hatch hydra with muta to snipe templar would be great.

On May 19 2011 06:44 xarthaz wrote:
Technically, templars arent as critically important without lurkers, so a more archon or reaver heavy composition can be employed

On May 19 2011 07:17 ninini wrote:
ZvP
This is definately Zerg imbalanced. Mutalisks are overpowered since you can't rely on Corsairs. Scouts have no Area attack and are not as effective in battle. They are just as good as harassing tools though in the lategame, as long as you get the speed upgrade. But you won't have any DT's, so the Zerg can be more careful with their Overlords. The only real advantage for the Protoss is that he doesn't have to get that "fairly early" robotics. Since the Zerg doesn't have lurkers, you can also skip the slow and costly dragoon production entirely, but lurkers aren't cost effective either, so it evens up. This matchup seems like a nightmare for Protoss.

PvT is slightly easier for Terran. I don't think DT's themselves add much power in this matchup, but it's rather the lack of threat for DT's that makes it slightly more favorable for Terran. Since you don't need detection, wraiths suddenly become a excellent option for dealing with early shuttle reaver, so you might get a early Starport instead of Engineering Bay. This matchup definately seems Terran favored, since they can be so much more aggressive in the early game, but it's not as bad for Protoss as ZvP.

TvZ
Mech is definately the answer here. Sunken busting is impossible, and how are you supposed to deal with mutas when you can't stim? Yes, you can stim, but that would mean suicide. The lack of Goliath range means you would have to play more defensively. More turrets and more bunkers to deal with the mutas. Cloaked wraiths could be used effectively to deal with mid/lategame mutalisk harass, or to harass yourself. Lurkers are not really that much of a threat against mech, so the setback isn't that great for Zerg. This is definately a Zerg favored matchup.


I would say
Z>>>P
Z>>T
T>P

So, Zerg looks definately overpowered, while Protoss looks underpowered.

On May 19 2011 07:23 bre1010 wrote:
Your analysis looks sound but I would like to have some statistical evidence to support it. Which is why we should all play some games, even if only for the nostalgia because I think real numbers beats theorcrafting any day.