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Hello TL,
For my AP statistics class project my group is testing the balance of the races in Starcraft 1 (before Brood War) to see if balance was one reason why the expansion was released. The method that we are using requires that each pair of players only plays one game and that the race they choose is randomly assigned. As my school does not have enough Starcraft players to get a large enough sample size for the experiment, we are requesting that people in the community play eachother and report back (with a replay, if possible/convenient) of a game they played. We will then compile the data to test the balance of Starcraft by running a Chi-squared test where probability of winning a game should be independent of the race of the player if the null hypothesis is true.
ZvT TvP PvZ
wins 2 2 1
losses 2 0 1
total 4 2 2
Above is the data currently collected from players at my school.
I've been playing a few games of Starcraft against my friends (I'm in Diamond Sc2 and was D+ on ICCUP before the beta came out) and I'm having more fun than on either Sc2 or Brood War. I think the reason is because since vanilla SC is so different from both Sc2 and Brood War, there are no set strategies or build orders. I don't feel pressured to follow someone else's build order to the second and none of us know any strategies at all. It's like we get to decide for ourselves how the meta game will turn out and I really enjoy it. I imagine the alpha of Sc2 was similar when it first came out.
I strongly encourage you all to break out the good old vanilla Starcarft that I know you've got sitting around there somewhere and play with a friend or some random person who still lurks Sc1 Battle.Net. Being unrestrained by what build counters what is both liberating and fun and if you play a game, comment back here with the race match up and who won. My group and I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks in advance,
Bre1010
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im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them.
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On May 19 2011 05:41 SnowFantasy wrote:
im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them.
Yeah I can't imagine dealing with a good muta build without medics, goliath range or sairs.
What maps do you play on?
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Lost Temple is what we've been playing on. I guess I forgot to add up there that maps should probably be kept constant although I'm not sure how much it matters. As long as it's a four player map that isn't stupidly small like Blood Bath it's probably fine.
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im on US West vanilla starcraft trying to get a game.
some noobs with bad stats like 15-80 join and leave like 30seconds into the game -_-;;;
im hosting lost temple but Circuit Breaker would be awesome too. playing without lan latency is god awful though.
edit: if anyone totally bored wants to play some vanilla message ccccc00003 @ US West 
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why would you play SC vanilla over broodwar? I dont understand.
User was warned for not reading the OP, like, at all
Nope definately read the whole thing, I was really remarking on why you would choose vanilla SC over broodwar in order to do this test but, I can see how I didn't show this at all. I hardly think BW was added TO balance the game, it just DID and all you will prove is that balance improved, but not that that was the intention.
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This experiment is an exercise in math rather than fact. Balance is not tested at such low levels of play. It make little sense to do so, even if you managed to play a million games. A million of the wrong games, with races played as they were never meant to be played, cannot possibly test balance. As a reasonable example, if chess were played largely randomly by those who only knew how to move pieces and knew very little of strategy, I do not believe that white would possess the significant advantage over black that it does in professional play, nor would there be anything like as many draws.
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On May 19 2011 06:18 Ecrilon wrote:
This experiment is an exercise in math rather than fact. Balance is not tested at such low levels of play. It make little sense to do so, even if you managed to play a million games. A million of the wrong games, with races played as they were never meant to be played, cannot possibly test balance. As a reasonable example, if chess were played largely randomly by those who only knew how to move pieces and knew very little of strategy, I do not believe that white would possess the significant advantage over black that it does in professional play, nor would there be anything like as many draws.
I completely agree with the point you're making however I want to continue with this for two reasons:
1. The population of our study is not all players, and not professional players, on average, if you picked up Sc1 right now, would a certain race be better? I should have probably made that more clear in the original post, because, as it applies to me and people around my skill level, white's advantage in chess has little meaning in the same way that perhaps the effective balance of Starcraft for casual players may be different.
2. I'm in high school and it's the end of the year and we have to do this project and this is a great way to play a fun game but still have an opportunity to show off our statistical knowledge as well 
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On May 19 2011 05:46 mucker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 05:41 SnowFantasy wrote:
im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them. Yeah I can't imagine dealing with a good muta build without medics, goliath range or sairs. What maps do you play on?
Technically, protoss has cannons as effective counters to it, and to make matters worse for zerg, without lurkers a midgame zealot&archon push can be very very scary to deal with. Remember, before the crackling upgrade there is no unit that can really hold its own against speedlots without lurks to soften them down.
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On May 19 2011 06:32 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 05:46 mucker wrote:On May 19 2011 05:41 SnowFantasy wrote:
im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them. Yeah I can't imagine dealing with a good muta build without medics, goliath range or sairs. What maps do you play on? Technically, protoss has cannons as effective counters to it, and to make matters worse for zerg, without lurkers a midgame zealot&archon push can be very very scary to deal with. Remember, before the crackling upgrade there is no unit that can really hold its own against speedlots without lurks to soften them down.
How does protoss protect templars from getting sniped by mutas without corsairs?
Seems like 5hatch hydra with muta to snipe templar would be great.
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On May 19 2011 06:42 SnowFantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:32 xarthaz wrote:On May 19 2011 05:46 mucker wrote:On May 19 2011 05:41 SnowFantasy wrote:
im pretty sure zerg is really overpowered in vanilla. mutalisks are just too strong with good micro behind them. Yeah I can't imagine dealing with a good muta build without medics, goliath range or sairs. What maps do you play on? Technically, protoss has cannons as effective counters to it, and to make matters worse for zerg, without lurkers a midgame zealot&archon push can be very very scary to deal with. Remember, before the crackling upgrade there is no unit that can really hold its own against speedlots without lurks to soften them down. How does protoss protect templars from getting sniped by mutas without corsairs? Seems like 5hatch hydra with muta to snipe templar would be great.
I think that constitutes a challenge! You two should try a PvZ to see who's right 
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Technically, templars arent as critically important without lurkers, so a more archon or reaver heavy composition can be employed
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On May 19 2011 06:44 xarthaz wrote:
Technically, templars arent as critically important without lurkers, so a more archon or reaver heavy composition can be employed
?? templars are basically mandatory for fighting mass hydra
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Technically, speedlots are a bit faster so they can kind of cut into the hydra packs. Especially if there is swarm around.
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ZvP
This is definately Zerg imbalanced. Mutalisks are overpowered since you can't rely on Corsairs. Scouts have no Area attack and are not as effective in battle. They are just as good as harassing tools though in the lategame, as long as you get the speed upgrade. But you won't have any DT's, so the Zerg can be more careful with their Overlords. The only real advantage for the Protoss is that he doesn't have to get that "fairly early" robotics. Since the Zerg doesn't have lurkers, you can also skip the slow and costly dragoon production entirely, but lurkers aren't cost effective either, so it evens up. This matchup seems like a nightmare for Protoss.
PvT is slightly easier for Terran. I don't think DT's themselves add much power in this matchup, but it's rather the lack of threat for DT's that makes it slightly more favorable for Terran. Since you don't need detection, wraiths suddenly become a excellent option for dealing with early shuttle reaver, so you might get a early Starport instead of Engineering Bay. This matchup definately seems Terran favored, since they can be so much more aggressive in the early game, but it's not as bad for Protoss as ZvP.
TvZ
Mech is definately the answer here. Sunken busting is impossible, and how are you supposed to deal with mutas when you can't stim? Yes, you can stim, but that would mean suicide. The lack of Goliath range means you would have to play more defensively. More turrets and more bunkers to deal with the mutas. Cloaked wraiths could be used effectively to deal with mid/lategame mutalisk harass, or to harass yourself. Lurkers are not really that much of a threat against mech, so the setback isn't that great for Zerg. This is definately a Zerg favored matchup.
I would say
Z>>>P
Z>>T
T>P
So, Zerg looks definately overpowered, while Protoss looks underpowered.
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On May 19 2011 07:17 ninini wrote:
ZvP
This is definately Zerg imbalanced. Mutalisks are overpowered since you can't rely on Corsairs. Scouts have no Area attack and are not as effective in battle. They are just as good as harassing tools though in the lategame, as long as you get the speed upgrade. But you won't have any DT's, so the Zerg can be more careful with their Overlords. The only real advantage for the Protoss is that he doesn't have to get that "fairly early" robotics. Since the Zerg doesn't have lurkers, you can also skip the slow and costly dragoon production entirely, but lurkers aren't cost effective either, so it evens up. This matchup seems like a nightmare for Protoss.
PvT is slightly easier for Terran. I don't think DT's themselves add much power in this matchup, but it's rather the lack of threat for DT's that makes it slightly more favorable for Terran. Since you don't need detection, wraiths suddenly become a excellent option for dealing with early shuttle reaver, so you might get a early Starport instead of Engineering Bay. This matchup definately seems Terran favored, since they can be so much more aggressive in the early game, but it's not as bad for Protoss as ZvP.
TvZ
Mech is definately the answer here. Sunken busting is impossible, and how are you supposed to deal with mutas when you can't stim? Yes, you can stim, but that would mean suicide. The lack of Goliath range means you would have to play more defensively. More turrets and more bunkers to deal with the mutas. Cloaked wraiths could be used effectively to deal with mid/lategame mutalisk harass, or to harass yourself. Lurkers are not really that much of a threat against mech, so the setback isn't that great for Zerg. This is definately a Zerg favored matchup.
I would say
Z>>>P
Z>>T
T>P
So, Zerg looks definately overpowered, while Protoss looks underpowered.
Your analysis looks sound but I would like to have some statistical evidence to support it. Which is why we should all play some games, even if only for the nostalgia because I think real numbers beats theorcrafting any day.
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On May 19 2011 07:23 bre1010 wrote:
Your analysis looks sound but I would like to have some statistical evidence to support it. Which is why we should all play some games, even if only for the nostalgia because I think real numbers beats theorcrafting any day.
So, I just have to play a random guy? Do you need a rep as proof? Both should go random?
Edit: Nvm.
Anyway. One thing to think about is that random ZvP is naturally a bit imbalanced, since you're forced to 1 base.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
vanilla sc is pretty broken, there isn't really anything to deal with high econ mutaling
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You should probably try to find people of similar skill levels to play though.
Considering someone who got Say C on BW vs someone who's like D will probably win regardless of race
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For low level players in Vanilla, the balance can work fine because anything can be overcome by mechanics; i'm afraid this whole testing is kinda flawed because of this. BW is considered balance even though 95% of players will find PvT to be easier for the P. Also there is set build orders cause you can just use modified BW ones, for example:
TvZ: 2port wraith, 2fac or other mech varients (only difference is no Goliath range, which is still playable against muta's especially at low level)
TvP: This can basically work the same as BW mostly.. 1fac expand or 1rax CC into mech as usual
TvT: The same (mass wraiths might be a little more effective but it's hardly a low level strategy)
ZvT: 2hatch or 3hatch muta, into hydra/muta
ZvP: Standard muta into Hydra, abuse lack of sairs to fullest extent
ZvZ: The same
PvT: Pretty much the same, ninini pointed out a small thing in T's favour but lategame P get's an advantage as well to balance it out; Carriers are more effective due to no goliath range
PvZ: Zealot/archon is ok in this
PvP: The same just no DT openings
It's not quite as bad as people make out, it's just the strategical options are way more limited. ninini i think you are exaggerating ZvP with what you are saying.. cause low level players especially are not going to be microing effectively against archons once/if you can get them out, and speedlots are going to tear through everything.
At higher levels this is all nullified though as the mechanics show up the problems really badly with muta's.
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You'd be hard pressed to get relevant sample size of games for SC2, let alone vanilla SC.
Even if you can determine balance based on statistics from low level games (which is debatable), I can't see how you can statistically determine whether balance was a reason for Brood War release.
Consider the fact that a lot of other games at the time were more or less abandoned after release, balanced or not (usually not).
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I used to play vanilla with some of the "best" western vanilla players (and actually some koreans too). I rarely lost with protoss, but zerg was undoubtedly the strongest race. ZVT is hilarious.
Expo with some sunken + ling if necessary, hydra den for couple hydras if necessary while going to mutas, muta harrass then add mass hydras, tech to guardians off 2 base, kill them with guardian/hydra. NEVER failed. There is no counter lol
Worked pretty well in zvp too.
the people who say mass mtua is broken are right too tho.
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I'm just going to throw in my two cents here that you all should play the game and then use that as proof. I still need the data
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It sounds like 2port wraith is the only thing that is not inferior in vanilla to be able to fight muta's with. Problem is, if they know it's coming it's easy to counter anyway i guess, unless maybe you bunker/repair to be able to stop hydras.
If you can use the wraiths to get past the earlier game though into proper mech, the goliath range won't be too much of a problem because the muta's will be attempting to attack your line head on. Still sounds too hard to even get there though.
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Completely unpatched would be even more hilarious but anyways my vote goes to zerg especially for ZvP as I guess it would be too hard to hold of perfect muta control without sairs. ZvT is a bit closer but then again no medics so bio isn't even viable really haha .p
Then again.. no lurkers.. so hmm it'll be interesting is all I can say!:D
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I'd love to play some games, but last time I went on vanilla there was literally 0 hosted games haha.
I'm agreeing with everyone above, I did in fact play two games a year or so ago, zvt and zvp respectively.
ZvT is rediculous with 12pool 2hatch muta being hilariously strong, I didn't bother transitioning to hydras, mass eco + constant muta harass and then mass muta-ling >_<
ZvP, I find the lack of corsair gives the P more trouble than just fighting mutas, if you remember that without sair the P can't scout effectively once zerglingspeed is done. I won with 4hatch zergling +1/1 allin after denying scouting...
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Anyone wanna play me for this thing? Someone who's rank D-/D+~. The standards on battlenet vanilla is so low. I think it might be worse than the WC3 ladder. I tried 2 games and both were pure rape.
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What about just making one of every unit and a-moving them? it would kinda cancel out mechanics. Maybe have one of each defense type?
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3 hatch muta timing similar to what Savior did back in his days would easily destroy protoss if you have good micro. Nothing he can do to stop you at that timing unless he gets archons, which would not be in time.
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What server/channel do you guys play this in?
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I don't think anyone actually went to play it. I got on west for a while with no success. Seems like the ~15 people in StarCraft USA-1 just care about evolves or are bots. Go figure.
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Katowice25012 Posts
To be fair, evolves is amazing.
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EPT
