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You are a great writer imo. I feel like people refuse to recognize that the ethical thing to do in most situations like this is help the person out. Usually people try and rationalize around helping the person.
On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless.
...I don't think its correct to say that because someone is an addict, feeding them is supporting their lifestyle and that they aren't actually hungry.......I think giving a homeless person food and compassion is a great way to help them.
I feel so fucking conflicted now.
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On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless.
I think you are wrong, if everyone gave them food how do they get drugs and alcohol?
Souma did a good thing and it's not useless as long as the next guy goes about it the same way.
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That was a heartwarming story. Im hungry...
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HwangjaeTerran - yeah. If everyone gave them food.. well there are always a lot of IFs. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. Not to mention that they could just exchange food for drugs if it comes to it.
Also Laertis, I feel you man, I used to give money to the homeless and occasionaly I still do. But I thought about it for some time, read a few articles here and there, had a few discussions and I came to think that the best thing you can do is a] cheer them up somehow, motivate them, talk to them b] join an organization that can trully help them c] ignore them.
Doing a good thing doesn't necessarily mean doing something helpful. Take famine problems in Africa for example. Imagine a lonely village somewhere in the wild. Just giving a lot of food can sometime be a good thing, but without further support it may actually become a bad thing. Give some food to the weakest, eventually they get a lot of children and then when the food runs out, you get a lot of unnecessary pain and deaths. When instead, building a new road for them to get better access to the food everyday for the next like 200 years may be a good thing also and may never go wrong. It's perhaps a stupid example, but I'm just trying to make clear what my point is.
These things are very difficult matters, if they weren't they would be solved by now. Sometimes you even have to admit that there's actually nothing you can do and that doing nothing IS the best way. How do you get people motivated to get some money on their own if they keep surviving with the help of others? How do you get that wildest instinct inside of them working if they know they'll just make it somehow because of the generosity of other people? It's just way more complicated than it seems and it's good to take that into account. I don't say my approach is the best, but it's always better to try and see things in a greater perspective.
Certainly giving a homeless guy a hot chocollate or something to eat is way better than giving them money. Still it doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, IMO. Sorry, just my opinion.
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On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless.
Yea dude this kinda makes you look like a horribly insensitive person. Did you read the fucking story? Did you read how happy the homeless guy was? Bringing that much joy to ANY person with a very simple action should never be avoided. He lives on the streets, you don't think he deserves anything because of that? If anything he deserves more stuff. I could go on and on but other people will handle that.
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On April 27 2011 01:11 Stratoss wrote:
HwangjaeTerran - yeah. If everyone gave them food.. well there are always a lot of IFs. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. Not to mention that they could just exchange food for drugs if it comes to it.
Also Laertis, I feel you man, I used to give money to the homeless and occasionaly I still do. But I thought about it for some time, read a few articles here and there, had a few discussions and I came to think that the best thing you can do is a] cheer them up somehow, motivate them, talk to them b] join an organization that can trully help them c] ignore them.
Doing a good thing doesn't necessarily mean doing something helpful. Take famine problems in Africa for example. Imagine a lonely village somewhere in the wild. Just giving a lot of food can sometime be a good thing, but without further support it may actually become a bad thing. Give some food to the weakest, eventually they get a lot of children and then when the food runs out, you get a lot of unnecessary pain and deaths. When instead, building a new road for them to get better access to the food everyday for the next like 200 years may be a good thing also and may never go wrong. It's perhaps a stupid example, but I'm just trying to make clear what my point is.
These things are very difficult matters, if they weren't they would be solved by now. Sometimes you even have to admit that there's actually nothing you can do and that doing nothing IS the best way. How do you get people motivated to get some money on their own if they keep surviving with the help of others? How do you get that wildest instinct inside of them working if they know they'll just make it somehow because of the generosity of other people? It's just way more complicated than it seems and it's good to take that into account. I don't say my approach is the best, but it's always better to try and see things in a greater perspective.
Certainly giving a homeless guy a hot chocollate or something to eat is way better than giving them money. Still it doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, IMO. Sorry, just my opinion.
I think a lot of homeless people don't have the means to get motivated to work towards a "better" life.
The problem is that their is a very wide range of different types of homeless people, some with mental disorders, some addicts, and some people like you described, they just mooch off the generosity of others.
So yea, your strategy of dealing with homeless people is fine for people that are just taking advantage of others, but what about the ones that can't change their position.
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Yeah I read the fucking story. Also it's so great that he's now so happy that he's homeless and can go on like that for another few years until he's dead, living a pointless life. Sometimes being insensitive means saving someone's life or even making them happy in the long run. Sometimes you have to be hard on your kids, or your loved ones. You can either accept that or keep doing that your way. But if he's still homeless, I guess it's not really working.
There are facilities (at least in our country) where they get to eat and wash everyday. They just don't go there because other people can do that for them and they don't have to "waste their time" with someone that can actually help them. If you don't give them the support, they have to go there and there's some hope for them to get better.
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On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless.
ah yes, because that dude will never be hungry again after that!!
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On April 27 2011 02:01 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless. ah yes, because that dude will never be hungry again after that!!
I don't know about the US, but like I said, in my country there are facilities where they will get a shower and a meal for free every day. All they have to do is cooperate a little.
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On April 27 2011 02:34 Stratoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 02:01 Hawk wrote:On April 26 2011 23:10 Stratoss wrote:
About the money and homeless guys, yes they'll usually spend it on drugs and alcohol. So even if you buy them food, in a way you're supporting this - they're not hungry, the next money they'll get will be totally going on alcohol or drugs. The bottom line is you can't really do anything, unless you're a part of some organizations dealing with these kinds of people, helping them to get motivated etc. That's my opinion. It might as well be just an easy way out, but I think it's true, what do you guys think? As long as the guy is not going to freeze the following night, any help of this kind is useless. ah yes, because that dude will never be hungry again after that!! I don't know about the US, but like I said, in my country there are facilities where they will get a shower and a meal for free every day. All they have to do is cooperate a little.
And find a way there. Those facilities are not on every corner, and not every homeless person squats near by those things. And it's kind of hard getting around without a car or money.
No biggie though!!
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Believe it or not they have to live near a society since they're basically living off of it. Sure, they can't go there by public means of transport - the police can't do anything about them and if they arrest them they even have to get them something to eat! (Again, our country). Your arguments seem pretty vague to me. They don't have a car. What the?
This, more than anything, is about working with the people. And giving them hot chocolatte as nice as it sounds, isn't going to help a bit in this regard. Don't you agree?
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Near society in no way means near a homeless shelter, you dolt. That holds true even in New York City, which is a huge city with lots of shelters. A smaller city of something like 100,000 is only going to have a few shelters covering a lot of land and not everyone is going to live within a reasoanble distance of a shelter
it doesn't hurt to use your head, I swear
it's nourishment for a person without food or money. Are you kidding me??
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On April 27 2011 03:07 Hawk wrote:
and not everyone is going to live within a reasoanble distance of a shelter
No they're not, not unless you keep feeding them yourself. Either they can live somewhere out with your support or near the shelter with the support of people that are trained to help them. I am sorry for not using my brain. I do not like the tone of this discussion any more so I will leave now. I didn't meant to make this thread uncomfortable, I just wanted to throw in an opinion on two on how to help these people better. Feeding such people is a gentle act of a kind soul, but it might not always be a good thing for the people in the long run. That's my message. Everyone treat it as they like.
Again, sorry for the corrupting the thread in this fashion.
Also happy birthday dude :-)
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Great story, I really do wish there were people whod do kind things for needy people more often.
I would like to say something though. From my personal experiences from living in Berkeley and seeing homeless people on a frequent basis, I just want to say that you will probably not get this kind of gratefulness for kind deeds most of the time. I've talked with several homeless people (most of them are pretty nice), and they say they get enough to eat on most days, so getting food and some spare change is really something taken for granted for by most of the homeless in Berkeley. Now I'm sure this is different because this is near a big campus and is full of the bustle and leftover food from students, but my point is that the kind of homeless people that really need generosity are the ones that are regarded as "scary", usually due to bitterness or mental illness or a combination of both, and these people will often not express or possess the capacity to express gratitude for random acts of kindness (i dont blame them, im sure they deal with a lot of shit from people every day). When I was the naive freshman who came here from a suburban environment where there was virtually no homelessness, I thought I'd be heartfully thanked for the random acts of kindness I was planning to carry out to help those who are not as well off as I am (I do think im a pretty nice guy). Sometimes this does happen, but often it does not. I realized that the attitude I had came from good intentions, but were also pretentious. So the lesson I learned is that you shouldn't help others with the expectation of getting thanked in return, but be satisfied just knowing you made their life better in some little way regardless of how they respond to you.
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I'm spending a good amount of time in Copenhagen these days, and often homeless people will come into the trains that go around the Copenhagen area and ask for money (some for housing or job opportunities). Normally they do this at stops, getting in and out before the train leaves the station. Even though they're quite good at doing it non-intrusively by now, it's still tough on people in the trains, often being confronted by the desperate needs of others. I have sometimes encountered the same homeless people several times in one day. And like all the people on the main street trying to recruit you for Amnesty International or UNICEF (why are also becoming better at avoiding bothering people, making their interruption of your walk more natural and enjoyable, not approaching without eye contact, exchange niceties, hugs, handshakes when appropriate, etc.), I'm sure many people will consider them a nuisance.
I'm sure I end up spending at least 100$ a month on homeless while in Copenhagen. Earlier I was pre-disposed to saying no if any homeless people asked for money (being under the impression that anyone could get financial support in Denmark, meaning begging was only necessary if you did drugs, meaning that giving them money would only prolong their unfortunate situation), but I cannot say no to people who ask me for help. So, as it is, when people just ask generally in a compartment or are just out in the street playing music or something, I rarely give them anything, but if people ask me specifically, I give what coins I have around half of the time.
Other homeless sell a newspaper called "Hus Forbi", and that works out much better. They pay 10 DKK for the newspapers and sell them for 20 DKK, so they are eager to sell them, but they do not approach people aggressively (the stack of newspapers providing a barrier between them and the people passing by), mostly staying in one place. And the newspaper is actually quite good; it focuses mainly on the situation of homeless people, but also other marginalized or vulnerable groups in society, having lots of good stories, in-depth commentary and expert assessments. It's a great way for people in a bad situation to get a platform to interact with others and keep a sense of responsibility and dignity by doing something of some significance. I the newspaper is done in monthly editions. According to the sales numbers, 350.000 people read each edition (which is more than half of the biggest newspaper), but since some people buy the newspaper several times, the number is likely to be around 200.000.
I do think that the gesture of food or drinks, while generally slightly less useful to the homeless (as they do not have a choice in what to receive), will mean more than giving them money. It's more of a gesture (visibly so; but also requiring more thought, care or effort) and more tangible. Whereas giving money seems more impersonal. And since money is often being of immediately of use, it will be felt differently as well. The situation you describe would seem to precisely dictate this course of action, where your contribution will be a major help. However, I rarely meet homeless people who are so far out that I would need to give them food or drink (at least not while I had the chance of getting any). Probably because homeless in Denmark are better off ...
I think an interesting thought when you relate the notion of charity to the notion of kindness is how this thinking impacts our society as a whole. I encountered an interesting video the other day; "First as Tragedy, Then as Farce". It describes how current capitalistic systems serve to keep a status quo in regards to homeless and poor, creating an unhealthy self-reinforcing pattern in distribution of wealth and roles in society. Nothing mind-shattering, and no solutions provided, but does throw a few interesting concepts into the fray.
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On April 27 2011 08:27 Asjo wrote:
Other homeless sell a newspaper called "Hus Forbi", and that works out much better. They pay 10 DKK for the newspapers and sell them for 20 DKK, so they are eager to sell them, but they do not approach people aggressively (the stack of newspapers providing a barrier between them and the people passing by), mostly staying in one place. And the newspaper is actually quite good; it focuses mainly on the situation of homeless people, but also other marginalized or vulnerable groups in society, having lots of good stories, in-depth commentary and expert assessments. It's a great way for people in a bad situation to get a platform to interact with others and keep a sense of responsibility and dignity by doing something of some significance. I the newspaper is done in monthly editions. According to the sales numbers, 350.000 people read each edition (which is more than half of the biggest newspaper), but since some people buy the newspaper several times, the number is likely to be around 200.000.
We have a paper like that in Washington DC. The paper is called "Street Sense" and it is mainly focused on homelessness related issues and awareness (with a small spattering of other pieces as well). Programs like these are amazing, but they really need more widespread support. When I worked in DC I knew my local vendor and it was always fun taking a moment to talk with him.
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I thought i was gonna cry when i read this
God bless you
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Thanks, everyone.  And thanks to those sharing their own personal experiences. I always like to read about how other people act when they're in similar situations.
On April 26 2011 18:41 wussleeQ wrote:Nice story. I wish I was as descriptive as you D: If you did do this then Good job! doing these types of things always makes me feel good too!
It actually made me feel pretty bad for not giving him my food. The memory of that homeless man has actually caused me to try and reach out more. I have never in my life witnessed such gratitude, and it just made me hate myself for not doing more.
On April 26 2011 18:50 EchOne wrote:
That was one of the best reads I've had in the blogs section in a long time. Quite well-written, too. I've found new respect for you. Though your comment "I HATE RAP" in tladt irc still strikes me as prejudiced.
I applaud your generosity. I might not have helped at all.
If it's any consolation, that comment was quite an exaggeration.  I just hate 99% of current mainstream rap. ^^
On April 26 2011 21:30 Lucumo wrote:
Where does it say that the OP actually did this? Could be a simple story and nothing more...
Oh, sorry. It's a true story. Probably should have mentioned it somewhere at the end of my blog.
On April 26 2011 23:14 New Zealander wrote:
You left out the most important details... What exactly did you order?
Also, what are you studying? Maybe you can dedicate your career to helping the homeless, like being an entrepreneur and setting up some shelter if you really feel that guilty.
Lol, just a simple breakfast meal.
My career goal is to be a diplomat. I don't believe I will be creating policies that will help the homeless, but I will still try to make improvements in society however best I can. Not on a domestic level, but on an international level. That is my goal, anyway, and atm it's a huge and distant ambition.
Stratoss: I understand where you are coming from 100%. That is certainly one way to look at it. In fact I used to share the same opinion. However, over the years, I have grown softer and more compassionate. Whether this is a bad or a good trait has yet to be seen, but unfortunately I do not agree with you at present.
The homeless are humans. They cannot and should not be generalized. They are all different with their own different sets of problems and needs. My policy is to not let the indecencies of some ruin the decencies of others. As a simple person myself, I will not allow myself to judge a person I do not know. There are those who may take advantage of society, but at the same time, I am positive there are those who genuinely need help and are not getting any.
The man I met was grateful beyond a doubt. So much so that his expression is buried deep within my memory. I did not mention it in the blog but I live in a ghetto neighborhood. The homeless here are not treated well. In fact they are often bullied by teenagers and left alone by adults. It is truly a tough place to live, homeless or not. I don't know why the homeless choose to reside here, but then again, why do I reside here? It's not so simple, I'll tell you that.
In any case, this man looked completely out of it. His face was so covered in dirt that I could not even recognize his skin color, not that it mattered. His speech was slurred and I was barely able to make it out. But through it all I was able to recognize his gratitude. I don't think I will ever be able to agree that giving him the hot chocolate was a bad thing, but I can agree that giving charity to some homeless may not produce desired results. But again I repeat: the homeless should not be generalized, and I will not judge an individual I do not know.
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On April 27 2011 01:16 Stratoss wrote:
Yeah I read the fucking story. Also it's so great that he's now so happy that he's homeless and can go on like that for another few years until he's dead, living a pointless life. Sometimes being insensitive means saving someone's life or even making them happy in the long run. Sometimes you have to be hard on your kids, or your loved ones. You can either accept that or keep doing that your way. But if he's still homeless, I guess it's not really working.
There are facilities (at least in our country) where they get to eat and wash everyday. They just don't go there because other people can do that for them and they don't have to "waste their time" with someone that can actually help them. If you don't give them the support, they have to go there and there's some hope for them to get better.
I think your just a bit conversationally disoriented. Everyone here is just supporting the point that helping people in need is a kind and potentially beneficial thing to do.. I doubt anyone who posted actually believes that they are making an enormous change to someone's life by giving them food or a smile or whatever. The point of the story was only to provide perspective on the potentially high emotional impact of minor ethical actions, not to convince people they can change lives with hot chocolate in a denny's parking lot. I liked your point about shelters being available to homeless people(in some cases) and I think you are right to a certain extent about motivating them. I personally believe that there are probably more ethical, supportive and effective ways of motivating homeless people, but I have no evidence to support this so =\....anyway, hope you read this.
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