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Disturbing Thought

Blogs > FODDER~
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FODDER~
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 00:31:56
March 30 2011 00:25 GMT
#1
There are people who do 4 gate openings all the way to Diamond league and sometimes further. There are people who open up standard every single game. How do you know when you are getting carried by the opening or build order you are doing? Or is there even such a thing? Can you really be carried by macro? It's kind of a question I've had a problem with when gauging how much I've been improving as of late.

So is it ever the opening winning the games? If so how can I possibily monitar my progress and gauge my improvement? Or is it the player making the opening work and thats all it ever is? I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this.

I am a Diamond league Protoss player in need of any form of help that can be given. If you believe you can help please contact me. I really want to improve more than anything and just need a form of guidance and small push in the truely right direction.
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 00:44:26
March 30 2011 00:35 GMT
#2
I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're asking.

(edit: nvm)
Always smile~
FODDER~
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
March 30 2011 00:41 GMT
#3
To rephrase... is it the player winning the game? Or is it the strength of the opening and build that is pathing the way for that player? Is it the build winning or the player? Where does it cross the line? When a player does the same opening every game?
I am a Diamond league Protoss player in need of any form of help that can be given. If you believe you can help please contact me. I really want to improve more than anything and just need a form of guidance and small push in the truely right direction.
DrivE
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States2554 Posts
March 30 2011 00:49 GMT
#4
if it is 4 gate, it is definitely the build winning them the game
LUCK IS NO EXCUSE
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
March 30 2011 00:50 GMT
#5
I think it's always the player.

It's the player who chooses a good or bad strategy.
It's the player who executes the opening well or badly.

Simply knowing an opening in terms of build order an timings doesn't get you far. You have to practice it and you have to refine it. If it's a good opening then it will pay off faster than a bad opening and you'll have more success with it.

Someone intelligent once said a good player isn't the one who does 100 builds OK-ishly but who does one build perfectly (or was it Bruce Lee, I dunno). So whatever opening you do, or whatever strategy you use, even if you completely copied it from someone else - to make it work, you need to practice it really hard.

At least this is the case in a complex game like SC2. It might have been a different story when roaches were imba in beta, and everyone could just mass them and win. It didn't require significant still. But that phase is over and any build can be beaten once you have more skill and scout it early enough.

I'd say it's the player.
Always smile~
redFF
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3910 Posts
March 30 2011 00:50 GMT
#6
man 4 gate sucks
FODDER~
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 00:54:50
March 30 2011 00:51 GMT
#7

Spekulatius:

I think it's always the player.

It's the player who chooses a good or bad strategy.
It's the player who executes the opening well or badly.

Simply knowing an opening in terms of build order an timings doesn't get you far. You have to practice it and you have to refine it. If it's a good opening then it will pay off faster than a bad opening and you'll have more success with it.

Someone intelligent once said a good player isn't the one who does 100 builds OK-ishly but who does one build perfectly (or was it Bruce Lee, I dunno). So whatever opening you do, or whatever strategy you use, even if you completely copied it from someone else - to make it work, you need to practice it really hard.

At least this is the case in a complex game like SC2. It might have been a different story when roaches were imba in beta, and everyone could just mass them and win. It didn't require significant still. But that phase is over and any build can be beaten once you have more skill and scout it early enough.

I'd say it's the player.


So you would even respect someone who made it to Grandmasters (theoretically let's say someone actually pulled that off) off of only 4 gate every single game? You would learn that in the favour of the player not the build carrying the player to that amount of success?


DrivE:

if it is 4 gate, it is definitely the build winning them the game


So the line is crossed when it is an all-in? What about if it's a standard opening that's leading to the player winning every game?
I am a Diamond league Protoss player in need of any form of help that can be given. If you believe you can help please contact me. I really want to improve more than anything and just need a form of guidance and small push in the truely right direction.
Myrkul
Profile Joined February 2009
Croatia132 Posts
March 30 2011 00:53 GMT
#8
"Is it the build winning or the player?"

No such distinction, one or the other by itself doesn't win shit. Good buildorders, good execution, and strong reactionary play which is gained by understanding the game, which in turn is gained by playing alot and thinking alot, is what is necessary to win games. Which of these was the main reason you won or lost (if it even can be determined) is a matter of the particular game you played. I don't even understand what it means for a buildorder to win a game. It's just the order in which you choose to build stuff, it's not a "thing" that wins games by itself, you're the one doing that.

My advice: stop philosophizing and play the game
gl hf
July = best goddamn zvp in this part of the universe
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
March 30 2011 00:54 GMT
#9
On March 30 2011 09:49 DrivE wrote:
if it is 4 gate, it is definitely the build winning them the game


You're implying the "effort you put into it - efficiency that comes out of it" ratio of the 4gate is extremely low. I guess that's true. But unless you're MC, your push can be held off by a player of a comparable skill, can't it?
Always smile~
esla_sol
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States756 Posts
March 30 2011 00:56 GMT
#10
if i was 4 gated by a diamond or below player, i could do just about anything and not lose to it. its the strength of the player.
Rotodyne
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2263 Posts
March 30 2011 00:58 GMT
#11
If you play a well balanced macro game you learn and constantly practice many of the skills that it takes to be a great player. But if you feel like it, why not throw some 4gates or rush builds in every once in a while just to check those out?
I can only play starcraft when I am shit canned. IPXZERG is a god.
FODDER~
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 01:02:44
March 30 2011 00:59 GMT
#12

Myrkul:

"Is it the build winning or the player?"

No such distinction, one or the other by itself doesn't win shit. Good buildorders, good execution, and strong reactionary play which is gained by understanding the game, which in turn is gained by playing alot and thinking alot, is what is necessary to win games. Which of these was the main reason you won or lost (if it even can be determined) is a matter of the particular game you played. I don't even understand what it means for a buildorder to win a game. It's just the order in which you choose to build stuff, it's not a "thing" that wins games by itself, you're the one doing that.

My advice: stop philosophizing and play the game
gl hf


Obviously a player is needed to execute the build. But can't there be instances where a player is only a certain contribution towards his own success, and the majority of it is the build or opening itself (particularly 4 gate)? The 4 gate in particular, is not necessarily a very demanding opening to pull off and is very powerful even in the less optimal of hands.
I am a Diamond league Protoss player in need of any form of help that can be given. If you believe you can help please contact me. I really want to improve more than anything and just need a form of guidance and small push in the truely right direction.
Marksman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Malaysia523 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 01:08:07
March 30 2011 01:06 GMT
#13
How do you know when you are getting carried by the opening or build order you are doing? Or is there even such a thing?

When you climb very fast in ladder and suddenly get hammered hard to a full stop perhaps?

Can you really be carried by macro? It's kind of a question I've had a problem with when gauging how much I've been improving as of late.

Yes you can. I'm Terran and I've been playing macro games (Heavy FE builds) all time long. I think I havent cheesed since the past 6 months. Hell, I remember forgetting how to BBS in BW once (SC2 Beta phase)

So is it ever the opening winning the games? If so how can I possibily monitar my progress and gauge my improvement? Or is it the player making the opening work and thats all it ever is?

The opening can win but once you reach a certain level, it wont. How do you monitor your progress and improve?

Phase 1: Understanding

Do you understand the Opening's role? What is it's objectives, strengths and weaknesses?

Phase 2: Comparison

Usually when a new BO is published in TL say TvT 2 fac 2 port, replays will be shared along for authenticity. Compare your timings to the OPs. Do you get the critical parts of the opening done in time?

Phase 3: Psychology

Do you know what your enemy is currently planning? What is your enemy's likely response to your opening? How would this response change to the results of your opening?

Phase 4: On the Fly

Do you know how to adapt and transition should you screw up the opening? Do you know what are the critical elements in the opening that you must maintain to win?

Just my 2 cents
I live by the LoL
Myrkul
Profile Joined February 2009
Croatia132 Posts
March 30 2011 01:14 GMT
#14
On March 30 2011 09:59 FODDER~ wrote:
Show nested quote +

Myrkul:

"Is it the build winning or the player?"

No such distinction, one or the other by itself doesn't win shit. Good buildorders, good execution, and strong reactionary play which is gained by understanding the game, which in turn is gained by playing alot and thinking alot, is what is necessary to win games. Which of these was the main reason you won or lost (if it even can be determined) is a matter of the particular game you played. I don't even understand what it means for a buildorder to win a game. It's just the order in which you choose to build stuff, it's not a "thing" that wins games by itself, you're the one doing that.

My advice: stop philosophizing and play the game
gl hf


Obviously a player is needed to execute the build. But can't there be instances where a player is only a certain contribution towards his own success, and the majority of it is the build or opening itself (particularly 4 gate)? The 4 gate in particular, is not necessarily a very demanding opening to pull off and is very powerful even in the less optimal of hands.


So what's the question? If you do a build and you find during the game you didn't have to do anything else but execute it, and you win with that over and over again, you've learned one aspect of the game, and it's that aspect that's ensuring your winning. If you play a long maco game odds are alot more than just buildorder execution will be necessary to win, So I guess the answer is the more consistently you win long games, the better you are becoming. Thats the general formula and I don't see why you should go into it more specific than that. Obviously you can't measure exactly how much you've improved from every game you play.
July = best goddamn zvp in this part of the universe
FODDER~
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
March 30 2011 01:28 GMT
#15

Marksman:

How do you know when you are getting carried by the opening or build order you are doing? Or is there even such a thing?

When you climb very fast in ladder and suddenly get hammered hard to a full stop perhaps?

Can you really be carried by macro? It's kind of a question I've had a problem with when gauging how much I've been improving as of late.

Yes you can. I'm Terran and I've been playing macro games (Heavy FE builds) all time long. I think I havent cheesed since the past 6 months. Hell, I remember forgetting how to BBS in BW once (SC2 Beta phase)

So is it ever the opening winning the games? If so how can I possibily monitar my progress and gauge my improvement? Or is it the player making the opening work and thats all it ever is?

The opening can win but once you reach a certain level, it wont. How do you monitor your progress and improve?

Phase 1: Understanding

Do you understand the Opening's role? What is it's objectives, strengths and weaknesses?

Phase 2: Comparison

Usually when a new BO is published in TL say TvT 2 fac 2 port, replays will be shared along for authenticity. Compare your timings to the OPs. Do you get the critical parts of the opening done in time?

Phase 3: Psychology

Do you know what your enemy is currently planning? What is your enemy's likely response to your opening? How would this response change to the results of your opening?

Phase 4: On the Fly

Do you know how to adapt and transition should you screw up the opening? Do you know what are the critical elements in the opening that you must maintain to win?

Just my 2 cents


Wow really well said man! Thanks!
I am a Diamond league Protoss player in need of any form of help that can be given. If you believe you can help please contact me. I really want to improve more than anything and just need a form of guidance and small push in the truely right direction.
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