Disturbing Thought

Spekulatius:

I think it's always the player.

It's the player who chooses a good or bad strategy.
It's the player who executes the opening well or badly.

Simply knowing an opening in terms of build order an timings doesn't get you far. You have to practice it and you have to refine it. If it's a good opening then it will pay off faster than a bad opening and you'll have more success with it.

Someone intelligent once said a good player isn't the one who does 100 builds OK-ishly but who does one build perfectly (or was it Bruce Lee, I dunno). So whatever opening you do, or whatever strategy you use, even if you completely copied it from someone else - to make it work, you need to practice it really hard.

At least this is the case in a complex game like SC2. It might have been a different story when roaches were imba in beta, and everyone could just mass them and win. It didn't require significant still. But that phase is over and any build can be beaten once you have more skill and scout it early enough.

I'd say it's the player.

DrivE:

if it is 4 gate, it is definitely the build winning them the game

On March 30 2011 09:49 DrivE wrote:
if it is 4 gate, it is definitely the build winning them the game

Myrkul:

"Is it the build winning or the player?"

No such distinction, one or the other by itself doesn't win shit. Good buildorders, good execution, and strong reactionary play which is gained by understanding the game, which in turn is gained by playing alot and thinking alot, is what is necessary to win games. Which of these was the main reason you won or lost (if it even can be determined) is a matter of the particular game you played. I don't even understand what it means for a buildorder to win a game. It's just the order in which you choose to build stuff, it's not a "thing" that wins games by itself, you're the one doing that.

My advice: stop philosophizing and play the game
gl hf

On March 30 2011 09:59 FODDER~ wrote:


Obviously a player is needed to execute the build. But can't there be instances where a player is only a certain contribution towards his own success, and the majority of it is the build or opening itself (particularly 4 gate)? The 4 gate in particular, is not necessarily a very demanding opening to pull off and is very powerful even in the less optimal of hands.

Marksman:

How do you know when you are getting carried by the opening or build order you are doing? Or is there even such a thing?

When you climb very fast in ladder and suddenly get hammered hard to a full stop perhaps?

Can you really be carried by macro? It's kind of a question I've had a problem with when gauging how much I've been improving as of late.

Yes you can. I'm Terran and I've been playing macro games (Heavy FE builds) all time long. I think I havent cheesed since the past 6 months. Hell, I remember forgetting how to BBS in BW once (SC2 Beta phase)

So is it ever the opening winning the games? If so how can I possibily monitar my progress and gauge my improvement? Or is it the player making the opening work and thats all it ever is?

The opening can win but once you reach a certain level, it wont. How do you monitor your progress and improve?

Phase 1: Understanding

Do you understand the Opening's role? What is it's objectives, strengths and weaknesses?

Phase 2: Comparison

Usually when a new BO is published in TL say TvT 2 fac 2 port, replays will be shared along for authenticity. Compare your timings to the OPs. Do you get the critical parts of the opening done in time?

Phase 3: Psychology

Do you know what your enemy is currently planning? What is your enemy's likely response to your opening? How would this response change to the results of your opening?

Phase 4: On the Fly

Do you know how to adapt and transition should you screw up the opening? Do you know what are the critical elements in the opening that you must maintain to win?

Just my 2 cents