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I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post this time.
I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff:
1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real.
 
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The problem with Zerg scouting is not after lair tech but before.
Overlord does not scout the whole base and all other means are impossible.
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zerg scouting after lair isnt the prob and if a 4gate hit after i had overlord drop i would question how he got in my league with his build.
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so get your lair faster? really, its not that expensive. People are locked into this line of thinking that you only get lair for lair tech units and its silly.
I'm really not claiming to have all the answers. Rather, I think zerg metagame still has so much potential, probably more so than any other race right now, and we should think about using every tool, even the lonely overlord.
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1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
See July vs MC game 1. By the time MC was attacking and forcefielded the ramp, many of July's roaches and lings were still hatching from the main and unable to reinforce. That early on, there was nothing July could have done to get his units out from the main.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
This one certainly is important. Of course easier said than done. Also should be clarified that you need to prevent sentries from getting close enough to cast a forcefield on the ramp in the first place.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
Both of these are not feasible in the early game.
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good luck getting a lair before the ~5-6 minute mark, when its the crucial time to scout
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On March 21 2011 15:35 ZaplinG wrote:
I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post it.
I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff and end op debates:
1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real.
2 makes no sense. You don't want to block your ramp as zerg, just engage away from it so he can't use it against you. Burrow is good for all units against forcefield until obsevers come out, as you can just wait out the forcefields. 4 is not much use either, as ventral sacs plus overlord speed comes pretty late and requires a significant investment, plus it'll be finicky in a real battle.
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I do appreciate the comments, though. Thanks guys. If nothing else, its helping me get a better feel for the game ^^
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The problem is there is no lower tech answer to forcefield. We could say hive tech counters forcefield, but what good is that? It has nothing to do with burrow or overlord drops. The problem is that roaches, zerglings, banelings, and hydralisks all die to forcefield + stalker micro.
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Yeah guys, seriously. If you can just see the future and prepare for their attacks before they come you should win all the time, you noobs
also use roach burrow to remove the sight advantage at the bottom of the ramps. if you do that there's no way they can forcefield your ramps without any sight at the bottom! it is so easy, why aren't you doing this
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Im playing in plat 2v2 and still have no trouble with ff in battles, not enough to really get upset about it. I like to micro, though, so I may just be outplaying my opponents.
Just have to throw a few jukes in there before your armies commit to each other - maybe try to get a flank in as well. I mean, sometimes they catch a couple of my units, but not anything crippling. I usually just ditch them and retreat a little until I can reinforce, then attack if I can before his energy comes back.
As a result, I rarely fight toe to toe, but instead scrape away at him every time he tries to move out.
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Maero, you made that account four years ago, it only has 255 posts, and you spent one of them trying to be sarcastic in my blog without any humor or constructive input? I feel honored to have your post for the week, really! 
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Most of my posts are from a live report thread, where I was trying to be useful! It was a failed experiment in helping out the community :p
Honestly though, at this point in the game's development there doesn't seem to be any viable counters to forcefielding a ramp. I'm not trolling, I just think that's the way it is. If you don't know that something's coming before the actual attack there's no way you're going to have a ton of troops sitting at your natural ready to attack the constant reinforcements from a 4gate. Both overlords with drop and roaches with burrow come after the protoss starts warping units in, and I truly believe that if a protoss is competent that the hardest thing about a pvz is choosing which auto-win you'd like to use. I play random, but I used to play zerg, so I'm probably biased in this matter.
Sorry about the sarcasm, but a lot of people tend to propose solutions without sitting back and critically thinking about the variables in each situation. Like I said, I'm not without bias myself - but I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in the game as it stands right now. It is by no means something that completely ruins the appeal of the game, just an issue that I'd like to see addressed. I know that as a long-standing member of the site I should keep my mouth shut and compose my responses in a more diplomatic manner, and for that I apologize.
EDIT: In hindsight, I'm sorry I cluttered up your blog with this - if you'd like me to delete my posts, I'd be happy to if you feel like they don't contribute in any way.
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I appreciate your kind response.
I just get a little upset sometimes when I see people cling to old ideas, like defending your main base. What if we dont have to defend our main base? Since you are usually dead if your expansion falls anyway, why not just make your first expansion the center of your tech and production? That way it devalues your ramp and makes it so the worst thing to happen if you get blocked in is that you cant reinforce from one hatchery. (works two ways because the toss cant reinforce if they are inside either)
Am I just dense and grasping at failure? Has anyone actually tried it?
Also, we shouldn't ever be completely blind. At the very least we know they are rolling out once they kill our scouts that should be patrolling the attack routes. Should give you enough time to prepare and get your army in position.
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On March 21 2011 15:35 ZaplinG wrote:
I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post it.
I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff:
1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real.
Why are you being such a smartass about some of the most obvious things ever? You talk as if people don't try to do 1 and 2. You talk as if zergs have 50 units sitting in their main at the time of a warp gate rush and just want to lose to QQ, when really zergs are hatching units from the main desperately trying to survive sometimes.
#3 is just flat out wrong. Your roaches are moving at 1/2 speed and get shot while they're running away. How is that even remotely a counter?
Ramp FF's no longer apply when you have.. drop tech... lol
None of the scouting tools you listed are reliable at critical moments for zerg. A stalker or sentries can easily kill an initial overlord. 4g expand is apparently standard now and the nexus can be instantly cancelled for almost all money back transitioning into a normal 4 gate rush. Doesn't matter if you see the nexus or 4gates lol. I don't even understand your other claims.
These things are hardly "counters" (and I laugh at how you could even call them counters).
edit: i love how i call u a smartass and then talk in an amazingly condescending tone o/ el oh el ;;
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Well, the tricky thing about it is that zerg relies on their hatcheries for production - if they could build barracks down at their expo it would be a different story. At the end of the day though, the units made at the main need to be able to travel down to the area near the expo to counter rushes, and if that can't happen it is a fundamental disadvantage. That doesn't mean it's insurmountable, just that I don't know what the proper response would be at this time.
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On March 21 2011 16:41 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 15:35 ZaplinG wrote:
I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post it.
I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff:
1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real. #3 is just flat out wrong. Your roaches are moving at 1/2 speed and get shot while they're running away. How is that even remotely a counter?
If the toss is going 6-gate no robo I suppose burrow could be useful until they get their robo up and observer out but otherwise yeah.
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You're right, 1 and 2 are obvious, but I think reminding people about positioning is equally as important as discussing unit composition which there have been infinite discussions on already.
Do you really not understand how burrow move counters ff? You go under it, lol. Maybe counter isn't the best word. Maybe I should have said 'helps cope'.
I realize drop tech is too slow for 4 warpgate rush, but I was thinking further ahead when the game stretches past that. If you are scared of ff ramp block so much, I see no reason not to get drop to ferry what you can in and out of your base if need be. Hell, even nydus could work. It's a bit wonky and slow, but certainly could make the difference in a pinch.
Concerning rushes, as a zerg player of nearly 11 years I find it slightly offensive that we are currently getting outrushed by the lumbering protoss. Early game aggression is zerg's domain. It has to be.
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On March 21 2011 17:01 ZaplinG wrote:
Concerning rushes, as a zerg player of nearly 11 years I find it slightly offensive that we are currently getting outrushed by the lumbering protoss. Early game aggression is zerg's domain. It has to be.
Trust me, I've been playing zerg since SC1 as well - but if zerg is designed as the defensive race in SC2, the defensive race we shall remain. Recent baneling busts make me curious, however - we'll see how the metagame pans out.
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Nice post !, I found it as a nice refresh. Every Bw zerg misses there early game.
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Flanking and two-pronged attacks are great counters to FF-happy tosses
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Sacing an overlord is ridiculously unreliable. Its no guarentee ull even send it to the right spot and good players are diligent about spreading their buildings out which makes it even less effective. Watch incontrols games for example, he has really good placement. Other races have slightly better scouting options early game but thing is theyre not nearly as dependant on scouting as z is becayse t or p usually dictate the pace of the opening anyway. Plslus z doesnt have as much infrastructure and its all huddled in one place so u can tell exactly wat z is dOing with 1 scan and an scv to see the army.
Sure overseers are good for scouting but no overseer is gonna come anywhere bear in time for scouting timing rushes tech rushes or all ins and thats wat ppl are complaining about
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It's fun to be the defensive/reactive race when we have to give away overlords only to have a chance of scouting the enemy strategy.
Plus, we most likely have to expand early for the extra larva, having to defend two bases with weaker units by default (since the idea is to overwhelm by numbers, not strength). But then, in some situations we can't get high numbers of units because we get blocked by force fields in the ramp.
//tx
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God all you stupid zerg players just need to learn to fucking play. EVER THINK THAT MAYBE YOU SHOULD FUCKING PLAY LIKE THE BONJWA'S OF OLD?! FUCKING SAVIOR USED SUNKEN COLONIES LIKE NO ONES BUSINESS!
All Ive been reading is how a buncha newbs are pissy that they "have to sacrifice an overlord" CONGRATULATIONS! Protoss doesn't even have a flying scout till observers or you could iunno FUCKING USE DRONES TO SCOUT OUT THE EARLY GAME.
GOD!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 21 2011 15:35 ZaplinG wrote:
I originally wrote this for a ff qq topic, but it got closed before I could post. Still wanted to share it though since I was actually going to post this time.
I am a zerg player and I came up with these four magical suggestions to counter ff:
1) Keep your army outside of your base so you can't get blocked in while your expo dies.
2) Dont let him get inside your base. Block the bottom of your ramps at all costs.
3) Burrow (already been discussed, for roaches only, but I would like to see hydras eventually get a burrow move upgrade too)
4) Keep overlords with drop near your ramp to ferry if need be.
And how are people claiming zerg's cant scout? Thats the biggest load I've ever heard. Sac an overlord for 100 minerals, drop changelings into their main asap, use a zergling or a tunneling roach. Or stop being such cheap asses and research ol speed. For real.
1) You can't reinforce, that's the issue here
2) You sac an expo while he has an expo, and you can't get out to remove his forces since he's FF'ing your ramp to delay you from rebuilding your expo
3) Would be nice if it was thesible to get burrow+movement AND have enough roaches to hold off a six gate push. It'd also be nice to know wether or not he's going to roll in there with 12 sentries, or 12 stalkers, and still have the time to finish these upgrades
4) Again, quick tech makes you really vulnerable to these pushes. That, and drop tech takes centuries to research.
If I ever get to the point where people do this as a standard build in PvZ, I'll probably research burrow ASAP, or make infinity spine crawlers, as those seem to be the best courses of action.
I mean, what is a stalker/sentry push going to do to spine crawlers? Sure, I'll have to spend 1000+ minerals and 10 drones to force him to leave my base, which ends up being useless, but I like think deadly headbutting giraffes look cute!
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I wonder why all the maps have expansions down the ramp.
How much difference (in balance) would it make, to have an expansion right by your main, or not really close, but not lower ground either?
//tx
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On March 21 2011 16:06 ZaplinG wrote:
Im playing in plat 2v2 and still have no trouble with ff in battles, not enough to really get upset about it. I like to micro, though, so I may just be outplaying my opponents.
Just have to throw a few jukes in there before your armies commit to each other - maybe try to get a flank in as well. I mean, sometimes they catch a couple of my units, but not anything crippling. I usually just ditch them and retreat a little until I can reinforce, then attack if I can before his energy comes back.
As a result, I rarely fight toe to toe, but instead scrape away at him every time he tries to move out.
Here's the problem... you're using examples from your platinum 2v2 games and you think people here are going to take you seriously?
When you start playing real competition, your views will change, and your jukes won't work... you'll just get owned...
p.s. roaches without speed can't juke anything, even on creep... maybe a platinum player with the reflexes of a dead horse can't catch them but a good player will catch them, surround them, and eat them alive.
And if we had a way to magically have our eggs appear at the bottom of the ramp, it would be wonderful, but as it stands, they have to come from a hatchery... meaning half your reinforcements will be forced to come down the ramp. Obviously we try to have as many in our natural as possible, but you always need reinforcements.
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I tried to show my take on this, but my computer is crashing. Essentially I'm feeling Zergs are supposed to make wall as quick as possible about 5 spaces towards the entrance from the ramp. Meaning that if a Sentry wants to Force Field the ramp, they'll have to go all the way around the wall, where hopefully your army is waiting. An Evolution Chamber, Roach Warren and two Spine Crawlers would probably make the wall pretty safe.
Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE.
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On March 22 2011 07:46 Blisse wrote:
I tried to show my take on this, but my computer is crashing. Essentially I'm feeling Zergs are supposed to make wall as quick as possible about 5 spaces towards the entrance from the ramp. Meaning that if a Sentry wants to Force Field the ramp, they'll have to go all the way around the wall, where hopefully your army is waiting. An Evolution Chamber, Roach Warren and two Spine Crawlers would probably make the wall pretty safe.
Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE.
I've tried. This isn't BW anymore..... At least, it's not for Z.....
You don't have creep early enough to pull this type of thing off on most maps unless you hatch first and use early energy on a tumor..... And even then, it's pretty map dependent.....
Not to mention - you sack a drone for each building, and a roach worth of resources for an evo chamber.... Which are not desireable effects of walling off.....
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On March 22 2011 09:01 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 07:46 Blisse wrote:
I tried to show my take on this, but my computer is crashing. Essentially I'm feeling Zergs are supposed to make wall as quick as possible about 5 spaces towards the entrance from the ramp. Meaning that if a Sentry wants to Force Field the ramp, they'll have to go all the way around the wall, where hopefully your army is waiting. An Evolution Chamber, Roach Warren and two Spine Crawlers would probably make the wall pretty safe.
Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE. I've tried. This isn't BW anymore..... At least, it's not for Z..... You don't have creep early enough to pull this type of thing off on most maps unless you hatch first and use early energy on a tumor..... And even then, it's pretty map dependent..... Not to mention - you sack a drone for each building, and a roach worth of resources for an evo chamber.... Which are not desireable effects of walling off.....
? That or lose. Let's not try it at all.
Queen's first energy is always on Creep. Both of them. At least if you're going any fast expand build. You always have enough energy to tumor at least once. Instead of putting the tumor in the main, put it in the natural, and have one in the main later. Or creep generate instead in your main. You always have the energy.
Map dependent yes. I believe Tal'Darim Altar has a pretty well shielded ramp. So you might not need that strong of a wall. In Crevasse, it's pretty impossible to hold your third if Protoss decides to force field the half ramp.
Definitely possible on Metalopolis, but leaves very vulnerable building. Also possible on the other 2-player map (forgot name), if you just choose to wall the entire path off. Not sure if it'd be in time for that one though. Impossible on Crossfire.
This is why mapmakers constantly make new maps. Feedback from community.
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On March 22 2011 09:26 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 09:01 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 07:46 Blisse wrote:
I tried to show my take on this, but my computer is crashing. Essentially I'm feeling Zergs are supposed to make wall as quick as possible about 5 spaces towards the entrance from the ramp. Meaning that if a Sentry wants to Force Field the ramp, they'll have to go all the way around the wall, where hopefully your army is waiting. An Evolution Chamber, Roach Warren and two Spine Crawlers would probably make the wall pretty safe.
Again, it would help if I could show you with a screenshot of what I mean, but think of reshaping the map with your buildings. Like how Protoss have to make a good wall or lose automatically in an FFE. I've tried. This isn't BW anymore..... At least, it's not for Z..... You don't have creep early enough to pull this type of thing off on most maps unless you hatch first and use early energy on a tumor..... And even then, it's pretty map dependent..... Not to mention - you sack a drone for each building, and a roach worth of resources for an evo chamber.... Which are not desireable effects of walling off..... ? That or lose. Let's not try it at all. Queen's first energy is always on Creep. Both of them. At least if you're going any fast expand build. You always have enough energy to tumor at least once. Instead of putting the tumor in the main, put it in the natural, and have one in the main later. Or creep generate instead in your main. You always have the energy. Map dependent yes. I believe Tal'Darim Altar has a pretty well shielded ramp. So you might not need that strong of a wall. In Crevasse, it's pretty impossible to hold your third if Protoss decides to force field the half ramp. Definitely possible on Metalopolis, but leaves very vulnerable building. Also possible on the other 2-player map (forgot name), if you just choose to wall the entire path off. Not sure if it'd be in time for that one though. Impossible on Crossfire. This is why mapmakers constantly make new maps. Feedback from community.
So you're suggesting that Z, which already has trouble keeping up in economy vs a P player at that point in the game, should preemptively lose 10% of their economy to prepare for a rush that may never actually come?
It will work for a hatch first on some maps, yes. So, what happens if P blocks your hatch and you have to go pool first? Game over if they 4 gate you?
Also, lol at trying to block on a map like DQ.
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EPT
