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On PTR patches and the Apocalypse

Blogs > Voros
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Voros
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States222 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 10:42:52
February 26 2011 04:18 GMT
#1
While my poor laptop chugs along trying to patch the PTR version of the game, I thought I'd offer a few initial thoughts about the patch notes that are being debated in the general SC2 forum.

General:

Leagues & Ladders

- A new Grandmaster League has been added for 1v1 ladders. This league represents the Top 200 players in each region.
- Players are automatically drafted into Grandmaster League shortly after a new season starts, and will remain in the Grandmaster league until the end of the season. If a Grandmaster player’s available bonus points get too high due to inactivity, they will be automatically removed from the league and a replacement player will be drafted in.
- The Grandmaster League can be viewed by all players through the new Leagues & Ladders > Grandmaster tab
- The bonus pool has been reduced for arranged teams.
- Leagues will now be locked during the final weeks of the season. As a result players will not accumulate additional bonus points and will not be promoted or demoted out of their current division during this period.
- This will allow players to focus on moving up in their current league without being promoted during the final weeks of a season, and having to fight their way up from the bottom ranks of their new higher league.
- Players can still utilize any points they previously accumulated.
- Ladder data from the prior season can be viewed through the new Leagues & Ladders > Last Season tab.
- New league icons have been introduced to indicate division rank. These will indicate the Top 8, 25 and 50 players in each division.
- Loss counts are no longer displayed in Profile and Ladder pages for players below Master League.


One big addition and a few minor, but welcome tweaks. The addition of the grandmaster league will help anyone who stalks progamers for new build orders; shoving the best ladder players in the world into a single, easily accessible page will allow much easier access to their game histories. The privacy of these players is a concern, as is hiding a potential b.o. for the sake of tournament play, but at this point every progamer seems to have least one personal smurf as well as access to team accounts. If they want to practice privately, there's nothing preventing them from doing so.

Observer and Replay UI

- New panels are now available when observing or viewing a replay of 1v1 games. These panels can be toggled via hotkeys which are shown under the Leader Panel drop-down.
- Player Name Panel: Displays the players' name, team color, race, and supply count.
- Stat Comparison Panels: Shows a head-to-head comparison of players' Resources, Army Supply, Units Killed, or APM.
- In 1v1 observed games, both players’ resource rows are shown in the upper right at the same time.
- You can now toggle between player unit colors and team unit colors when watching a replay or observing.


I'll reserve 100% judgment until I see the actual implementation of these changes, but all seem like welcome additions, particularly the penultimate item re: parallel resource rows. I'm not clear on what "Stat Comparison Panels" refers to, as it seems redundant with the panels already in the game.

And now on to the Apocalypse of David Kim (which probably should be the last chapter of the StarCraft Bible).

Balance

GENERAL
- Players can no longer hide units by setting them in a close proximity patrol (Viking flower).


I suspect there was an issue in TvT where viking battles would devolve into a situation in which the player with the first volley would win the battle and gain air dominance. In PvT and ZvT, however, the Viking Flower was just an invitation for a well-placed storm or fungal.

PROTOSS

Mothership
- Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds.


This is an overreaction, as the archon toilet was never particularly easy to pull off and is generally viewed as the Protoss equivalent of dropping mules in your opponent's base in that you have the game won in any situation in which you attempt it. Moreover, it actually turns vortex into a last-ditch defensive spell, as now Protoss will have to vortex and run for fear of being rolled over by an untargetable and invincible enemy army once it emerges from the vortex.

High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.


The last PTR sent the community into an uproar with the nerf to fungal; this is no different, and the removal of the amulet has no chance whatsoever of being implemented in the game. At present, Templar are primarily used as a means of crippling Terran who invest too heavily in Vikings to support their tier 1 infantry armies. Pre-PTR changes, they're more APM-intensive than colossi and take forever to become viable due to the necessity of both the storm and amulet research. In short, they're less useful than colossi in 90% of situations, the other 10% generally being storm drops and cases in which vikings or corrupters were overproduced.

Removing the amulet upgrade will do nothing but ensure that Protoss never make Templar. This change will never see the light of day.

Zealot
- Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.


I didn't know this was an issue, but it looks like a reasonable change. Generally speaking, though, if you're running away from charging zealots, you're not in a good position to win the game.

TERRAN

Battlecruiser
- Movement speed increased from 1.406 to 1.875.

Bunker
- Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds.

Tech Lab
- Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.


BC speed means nothing to me, as I haven't seen BCs used effectively since their ATG damage was nerfed a while ago.

The bunker build time will help slightly in rebalancing ZvT, where 2-barracks play with bunker pushing remains a concern.

The stimpack change seems unnecessary, though. I've played zerg and protoss exclusively for months now, and I can't think of a single game in which stim arrived too quickly for me to deal with it. Concussive shells, yes, stim, no. If this change goes live, it provides Protoss with a much, much larger window for effective rushing, and MC's 6-gate, 2-base push in PvT will become even more ridiculous.

ZERG

Infestor
- Health increased from 90 to 110.

Fungal Growth
- Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
- Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
- Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast.


Presumably the hp increase will allow infestors to get in a couple more hits with neural parasited units. I'd be more inclined to increase the range of NP by one, but I won't complain here.

I haven't had the chance to play around with the new version of fungal growth, but this looks like a redesign of the ability to my eyes. The change from instant case to projectile is a nerf, but the missile speed is fast enough that it won't be easily dodged like, say, the Seeker Missile. Presumably this will add a bit more skill back into the game, as an alert terran will be able to stim and retreat some of his units out of range.

The change in stun duration is a double-edged sword. For one, medvacs will now have a much harder time healing infantry units that are suffering damage at twice the original rate. On the other hand, zerg can now delay a terran push for only half as long as before. Taken together with the boost to damage against armored units, this seems to be an attempt to make fungal more useful as an offensive ability, not just a way of delaying attacks or preventing marines from splitting up against your banelings.

The final word: the loss of amulet should never see the light of day and is as ill advised as making fungal a ground-only spell. Templar were already the colossus's ugly kid brother; with this change, they'd be kicked out of the family altogether.

The research increase on stim is unnecessary. It does nothing to correct the imbalance in early game TvZ (which was never dependent on stim in the first place) and makes Terran even more vulnerable to Protoss when fast expanding.

And the jury is out on the changes to fungal growth.

****
lastmotion
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
368 Posts
February 26 2011 04:26 GMT
#2
Dug up my post from the official thread


On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.

User was banned for this post.
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
February 26 2011 04:28 GMT
#3
On February 26 2011 13:26 lastmotion wrote:
Dug up my post from the official thread


Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.


Yeeeaaah
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Trowabarton756
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States870 Posts
February 26 2011 04:31 GMT
#4
On February 26 2011 13:26 lastmotion wrote:
Dug up my post from the official thread


Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.


.....You have no support yet you claim "it's really true"...right...
also this means that theres basically no reason to ever create a high templar after ghosts come into play because they'll just get emp'd and sit there with their thumbs up their ass. Not to mention they cost more and ghosts can cast emp straight out of the barracks with a similar upgrade...logic fail.
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Trowabarton756
vectorix108
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4633 Posts
February 26 2011 04:32 GMT
#5
I like your views. hopefully blizzard agrees with you and not remove the amulet. Protoss desperately needs it....
Aka XephyR/Shaneyesss
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
February 26 2011 04:41 GMT
#6
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing


How is it a good thing? It is the only thing that prevents t1 from working late game. Collosi are too fragile, and critical viking mass facerapes it. By all means if you think letting your race go t1 all game long and win is good, so be it.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
February 26 2011 04:46 GMT
#7
Stim upgrade time is increased for protoss. It's too hard for protoss players to fight stimmed units without higher tech. Now stim won't come so fast.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
MrRicewife
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 05:03:42
February 26 2011 04:48 GMT
#8
Double post x.x
So? My dad can beat up your dad. - Jesus
MrRicewife
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 05:03:50
February 26 2011 05:03 GMT
#9
On February 26 2011 13:31 Trowabarton756 wrote:

.....You have no support yet you claim "it's really true"...right...
also this means that theres basically no reason to ever create a high templar after ghosts come into play because they'll just get emp'd and sit there with their thumbs up their ass. Not to mention they cost more and ghosts can cast emp straight out of the barracks with a similar upgrade...logic fail.

Have you ever dropped a storm on scvs before?.... Blizzard clearly didn't want HT to be used the way they were being used. They were just spammed when protoss was suppose to lose a game.

Check out some of white-ra replays. He loves to do HT harass, and god damn does it work well. Maybe we will see warp prism speed researched more?

Archons aren't terrible against terran. Because ghost are empty of magic, archon can be a pretty nice beef cake. It's not like you are dropping HT down for archons or anything like that... But hey, if you get emp'd, it's not like your units are dead.
On February 26 2011 13:18 Voros wrote:
- Loss counts are no longer displayed in Profile and Ladder pages for players below Master League.

So wait... Does that mean when I make it to master, I can grind as hard as I want? I know there is a chance of being demoted, but if you dont... you just rack wins and look pimp?
So? My dad can beat up your dad. - Jesus
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
February 26 2011 05:22 GMT
#10
amulet upgrade being removed would be one of the best changes to this game.
Sup
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
February 26 2011 05:24 GMT
#11
They could just balance it by making it like bw, give the templar more total energy, but dont give them as much starting energy (or any extra at all).
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
February 26 2011 05:25 GMT
#12
On February 26 2011 13:26 lastmotion wrote:
Dug up my post from the official thread


Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.


get outta here
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 05:32:37
February 26 2011 05:31 GMT
#13
On February 26 2011 13:26 lastmotion wrote:
Dug up my post from the official thread


Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.

Dude you need to understand that it is hard to play protoss in the first place since in all match ups pvt pvp pvz is all about the wrap gates but once wrap gates are down toss would. But if you were truely unbias terran then why would you think that blizzard favors terran? Well terran had alot op stuff back in beta but the only thing that wasn't so op if scouted is a proxy racks before depots were required to make a barracks but still the amulet upgrade for ht could still be countered by emps from ghosts easly to get rid fo the energy neccary to storm netherless this is jsut my own opinion
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
MrRicewife
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 05:42:48
February 26 2011 05:41 GMT
#14
On February 26 2011 14:22 avilo wrote:
amulet upgrade being removed would be one of the best changes to this game.

Ya no kidding... Watching code S and senZen is raping NesTea with that stupid fucking spell.

Oh what a surprise.. just as I was typing that, senZen abuses toilet lol... really hope these patches go through..
So? My dad can beat up your dad. - Jesus
MuffinFTW
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States235 Posts
February 26 2011 06:06 GMT
#15
Amulet nerf/complete removal sucks
Mothership vortex nerf = sucks T_T no more archon toilet </3
Fungal/Infestor somewhat buff = good
Bunker nerf = nice
Stim nerf = not really needed.
barkles
Profile Joined May 2010
United States285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:20:59
February 26 2011 07:14 GMT
#16
On February 26 2011 13:18 Voros wrote:
Show nested quote +
High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.


The last PTR sent the community into an uproar with the nerf to fungal; this is no different, and the removal of the amulet has no chance whatsoever of being implemented in the game. At present, Templar are primarily used as a means of crippling Terran who invest too heavily in Vikings to support their tier 1 infantry armies. Pre-PTR changes, they're more APM-intensive than colossi and take forever to become viable due to the necessity of both the storm and amulet research. In short, they're less useful than colossi in 90% of situations, the other 10% generally being storm drops and cases in which colossi or corrupters were overproduced.

Removing the amulet upgrade will do nothing but ensure that Protoss never make Templar. This change will never see the light of day.


...because GOD FORBID high templar not be able to cast storm the SECOND they come into existence. That could NEVER work in ANY game!

...oh wait, there was a game called starcraft broodwar?

Seriously, if there was no chance that this wasn't going to be included in the game they wouldn't have put it in the PTR. Storm was still the dominating spell in late game BW PvP and PvZ despite having to wait for the templar to gain energy for storm and the heavy tech involved. This change will only require Protoss to plan their army composition in advance and micro a little. Late game TvP is SO HARD once protoss get storm and amulet. Blizzard recognizes this, and is looking for solutions.
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:41:39
February 26 2011 07:40 GMT
#17
On February 26 2011 13:26 lastmotion wrote:
Dug up my post from the official thread


Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:21 lastmotion wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel that the amulet upgrade removal was a good thing. I hated late game TvP where even if I emp'd the HTs on the field, more will just warp in and instantly cast game-changing storms. Making Protoss waste its storms and making the players more careful about preparing storms before-hand is a good change.

As an unbiased Terran player, I feel like Terrans are still too strong and Blizz just keeps favoring T over the other races. Look at this patch, T's "nerfs" are minimal compared to what happened to other races. Stim delay is not gonna do much. I wonder why they still haven't nerfed Marauders yet.


I feel like Blizz keeps favoring Terran lol. While I will enjoy the higher win rate%, I actually do want a more balanced game this time because BW balance was crap. I'm sure people will disagree with me on this statement but it's really true.

User was banned for this post.


You must be a computer level BW player who cannons up his base and expand 30 minutes later. Lol, if it was imbalanced, it wouldnt last till this day.
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
Ordained
Profile Joined June 2010
United States779 Posts
February 26 2011 07:46 GMT
#18
I agree with everything you posted except for the damage buff to Fungal Growth. I do not see this even being noticed being only 10 damage. Fungal Growth is still an expensive ability and I think should still be saved for defending.

Though I will still have to play around with it before I cast my judgement fully.

Other than that, thank you for typing your thoughts up, was a good read, glad to see people who arent whining.
"You are not trying to win, you are trying to be awesome" -Day[9]
PaPoolee
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Arab Emirates660 Posts
February 26 2011 08:07 GMT
#19
Wow the mothership thing was unnecessary, it was already SO hard to pull it off! now PvP mothership is going to be terrible as well, if they nerfed storm like that they definitely need to nerf EMP as well, i think it would only be fair if it becomes and upgrade or something =/.
GiygaS
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1043 Posts
February 26 2011 08:19 GMT
#20
Crazy Ideas:

A) Units also can't attack out of a vortex.
B) Khaydarian amulet boosts the mana regen of a templar. Not it's initial energy.

I can't think of anything wrong with these.
AKA gigyas, gigas, giygas khan, giyga khan, giyga...
Voros
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States222 Posts
February 26 2011 11:21 GMT
#21
On February 26 2011 16:14 barkles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 13:18 Voros wrote:
High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.


The last PTR sent the community into an uproar with the nerf to fungal; this is no different, and the removal of the amulet has no chance whatsoever of being implemented in the game. At present, Templar are primarily used as a means of crippling Terran who invest too heavily in Vikings to support their tier 1 infantry armies. Pre-PTR changes, they're more APM-intensive than colossi and take forever to become viable due to the necessity of both the storm and amulet research. In short, they're less useful than colossi in 90% of situations, the other 10% generally being storm drops and cases in which colossi or corrupters were overproduced.

Removing the amulet upgrade will do nothing but ensure that Protoss never make Templar. This change will never see the light of day.


...because GOD FORBID high templar not be able to cast storm the SECOND they come into existence. That could NEVER work in ANY game!

...oh wait, there was a game called starcraft broodwar?


SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.

Seriously, if there was no chance that this wasn't going to be included in the game they wouldn't have put it in the PTR.


I'm contending that the outcry of Protoss will at least rival, if not surpass that of the zerg when Blizzard tested out the nerf to fungal. They're both massive overreactions that will create more problems than they solve (though I'm still unclear on what nerfing fungal was supposed to accomplish), and players are going to realize that once marauders start sniping nexus with impunity again. Many Terran players don't appreciate how strong their drop capability is and how pivotal the amulet is to defending against it. I suspect the chargelot buff was intended to compensate for that somewhat, but it's hard to imagine it making up for the loss of instant storm on defense.

Re: army battles, I have no issue with amulet-empowered templar immediately warping in and destroying an MMM ball--tier 1 units shouldn't expect to be viable against a tier 3 protoss who has invested in two costly, highly specialized upgrades. If storm was decimating a heavy mech composition, I'd be more sympathetic to the terran plight, but it seems to me that Terrans need to stop trying to MMM their way to victory at 25 minutes into the game when they know storm tech is on the field.
Voros
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States222 Posts
February 26 2011 11:56 GMT
#22
On February 26 2011 14:03 MrRicewife wrote:
Have you ever dropped a storm on scvs before?.... Blizzard clearly didn't want HT to be used the way they were being used. They were just spammed when protoss was suppose to lose a game.

Check out some of white-ra replays. He loves to do HT harass, and god damn does it work well. Maybe we will see warp prism speed researched more?


I think you've hit the nail on the head. I watched a couple dozen White-Ra replays a few days ago, and he uses the storm drop to devastating effect in PvT. There was one game against QXC where he obliterated half the Terran economy in the blink of an eye and rolled him a few minutes later as a result. I thought that storm drops were the Protoss answer to blue-flame hellions in terms of mineral line harassment, but Blizzard must perceive some kind of imbalance here.

So wait... Does that mean when I make it to master, I can grind as hard as I want? I know there is a chance of being demoted, but if you dont... you just rack wins and look pimp?


I think they're hiding the non-masters W-L records to prevent more casual players from being disheartened by their win ratio. From what I understand, when you make it into masters, your W-L record reappears (maybe we'll be experienced enough to deal with the psychological damage of being 800-790).


On February 26 2011 16:46 Ordained wrote:
I agree with everything you posted except for the damage buff to Fungal Growth. I do not see this even being noticed being only 10 damage. Fungal Growth is still an expensive ability and I think should still be saved for defending.

Though I will still have to play around with it before I cast my judgement fully.

Other than that, thank you for typing your thoughts up, was a good read, glad to see people who arent whining.


Thanks for the kind words.

You're probably right, but I do anticipate fungal playing a more pivotal role in zerg's late-game composition in every facet of the game, offense and defense. The 11 extra damage against armored may not seem like much, but the new fungal's DPS is massively larger against armored units.

I'm thinking about the VR/Colossus deathball in particular: whereas with the old fungal you'd do 36 damage over 8 seconds (which barely amounts to tickling a Void Ray), the new version would allow zerg to do 94 damage in the same span of time at the cost of a little more APM. It seems like a great way of softening up Protoss shields before the big engagement, and I'm looking forward to seeing if it makes a difference in late-game ZvP.
barkles
Profile Joined May 2010
United States285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 20:37:11
February 26 2011 20:36 GMT
#23
On February 26 2011 20:21 Voros wrote:


SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.


No, but it would be extremely foolish to disregard the almost perfect balance that was achieved in Broodwar with a very similar type of game, especially when some units have carried over in almost identical roles like the high templar has.



I'm contending that the outcry of Protoss will at least rival, if not surpass that of the zerg when Blizzard tested out the nerf to fungal. They're both massive overreactions that will create more problems than they solve (though I'm still unclear on what nerfing fungal was supposed to accomplish), and players are going to realize that once marauders start sniping nexus with impunity again. Many Terran players don't appreciate how strong their drop capability is and how pivotal the amulet is to defending against it. I suspect the chargelot buff was intended to compensate for that somewhat, but it's hard to imagine it making up for the loss of instant storm on defense.

Re: army battles, I have no issue with amulet-empowered templar immediately warping in and destroying an MMM ball--tier 1 units shouldn't expect to be viable against a tier 3 protoss who has invested in two costly, highly specialized upgrades. If storm was decimating a heavy mech composition, I'd be more sympathetic to the terran plight, but it seems to me that Terrans need to stop trying to MMM their way to victory at 25 minutes into the game when they know storm tech is on the field.


*sigh* I don't know where to start with this. I guess I'll begin with the "outcry" that we will be hearing about. Blizzard is patching for high level 1v1 play. Many high level Protoss players have voiced that they don't favor high templar play in PvT, at least not as the goal. Among these are Tyler and Artosis. Having said this, I do think that the complete removal of amulet is too much. I think the amulet upgrade should give HT +10 energy on warp-in and a slightly faster energy regen rate, or something along those lines.

Also, I don't know what game you're playing, but if I drop 8 marauders in a protoss base and they try to defend with only high templar I'm just giddy. Storm is simply not that good in small scale battles with high hit-point, fast units that are easily microed out of storm (read: marauder). It is more of an issue in large scale battles when there are enough storms to make perfect micro impossible.

To your comment about army battles: I don't have a problem with HTs wrecking MMM balls. What I DO have a problem with is when I take my three ghosts with the energy upgrade, place 3 perfect EMPs that get all the High Templar and a good portion of the army, and then lose the battle anyway because the protoss just warps in 5 more high templar and blanket storms. This is not about HT versus MMM. It's about HT versus ghosts, and the HTs are clearly winning this one.

When Protoss is relying on reinforcements for the majority of their DPS in battles, I think something is very wrong.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
February 26 2011 21:49 GMT
#24
No more viking flower? Damn it, this is so going to break the phantom mode games.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Voros
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States222 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 23:47:08
February 26 2011 23:34 GMT
#25
On February 27 2011 05:36 barkles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2011 20:21 Voros wrote:


SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.


No, but it would be extremely foolish to disregard the almost perfect balance that was achieved in Broodwar with a very similar type of game, especially when some units have carried over in almost identical roles like the high templar has.


The role is the same, but Blizzard is not trying to balance the role, but rather the relationship between the templar and other units. Believe it or not, but Protoss can't afford to have templar sitting around doing nothing for 45 seconds while waiting for enough energy to storm. Even given the danger of having my colossi sniped, I'd much rather have a useful colossus on the field that a useless templar whose tech tree has already cost me an arm and a leg while leading me down a dead-end tech path.



*sigh* I don't know where to start with this.


You can start by not sighing. Courtesy is a two-way street, and I'll give it to you if you do the same for me.

I guess I'll begin with the "outcry" that we will be hearing about. Blizzard is patching for high level 1v1 play. Many high level Protoss players have voiced that they don't favor high templar play in PvT, at least not as the goal. Among these are Tyler and Artosis. Having said this, I do think that the complete removal of amulet is too much. I think the amulet upgrade should give HT +10 energy on warp-in and a slightly faster energy regen rate, or something along those lines.

Also, I don't know what game you're playing, but if I drop 8 marauders in a protoss base and they try to defend with only high templar I'm just giddy. Storm is simply not that good in small scale battles with high hit-point, fast units that are easily microed out of storm (read: marauder). It is more of an issue in large scale battles when there are enough storms to make perfect micro impossible.


We're going to have to agree to disagree, because I routinely defend drops by warping in one or two templar to go with a handful of chargelots. The templar storm the mm and feedback the medivacs, and the zealots clean up what's left. To the best of my knowledge, templar/chargelot is the preferred reaction to any terran drop, and I don't usually lose important buildings unless my warp gates are on cool down.

In large-scale battles, the only scenario in which I'd opt for templar over colossus is when there are a ton of vikings or corrupters on the field, as tech switching between templar and colossi is often the difference between a win and a loss. No Protoss with more than 10 games under his belt *wants* to go templar--it's a worse unit and tech tree all the way around than Colossi, but you're forced to as a means of combating the typical dual-port viking or Select-style drop play that Terran loves so much. Removing the amulet forces Protoss to make Colossi work in every situation, as no one is going to invest a ton into a tech switch and mostly useless units that are just going to be EMPed seconds before his army is rolled. I'm 99% certain that this change would kill templar tech altogether, and that's why I don't think Blizzard will implement it when push comes to shove.

To your comment about army battles: I don't have a problem with HTs wrecking MMM balls. What I DO have a problem with is when I take my three ghosts with the energy upgrade, place 3 perfect EMPs that get all the High Templar and a good portion of the army, and then lose the battle anyway because the protoss just warps in 5 more high templar and blanket storms. This is not about HT versus MMM. It's about HT versus ghosts, and the HTs are clearly winning this one.


Disagree. Ghosts are absurdly, insanely powerful against Protoss to a degree unmatched by any other caster in the game. Early game, late game, you name it, ghosts own Protoss. At the very least, Terran can dodge storm damage with their infantry units; by contrast, a Protoss has zero opportunity to micro away from an EMP that will do 1000+ damage to shields in addition to draining all of the energy from sentries, templar, and phoenix without absolutely perfect feedback micro. If there's a problem unit in TvP, it's the ghost, not the templar.

What this objection comes down to is the belief that if you EMP a Toss army without being feedbacked first, you deserve to win the battle. That idea is anathema to me, as the micro required to feedback a small group of cloaked ghosts before they EMP your ball a half dozen times is ridiculously difficult. In your scenario, toss should lose the battle because 1) they couldn't feedback each individual ghost in time and 2) the range of feedback is not equal to that of emp + its perimeter of effect. Even if templar are warped in to Psy Storm your army to oblivion, you're missing the point that templar tech is supposed to eat infantry alive, regardless of whether your ghosts pull off a successful initial EMP or not.

If you don't enjoy having Protoss's T3 units kill your T1 army with a few T2 ghosts sprinkled in, try doing a tech switch into mech. Protoss often have to tech switch between Colossi and templar to survive in PvT, so why shouldn't terran bear the same burden?
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