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Current music:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RCCDSBEGk
[Only for rowing people: I pulled a 6:28 on a 2K as a lightweight!!!]
I think cheese is a good thing. And no, not the kind you eat.
MY REPLAYS:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=186628
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=182803
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188527
![[image loading]](http://www.wigdahl.net/quern/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/46725_623482376011_185008671_35876660_3507489_n1.jpg)
See, I use to play Zerg in 1v1. I was about 2.2K Masters when I decided to switch over to Toss. Not saying I didn't have any Toss experience, I am a 2.8K random 2v2 player with a pretty good win ratio (I've done my fair share of dirty 2v2 cheese, so sue me).
After play Zerg for so long, I was really starting to burn out. I was winning maybe 55-60% of my games, but I just wasn't feeling it. I was use to playing big macro styles, lots of creep, drones, and expos. Of course I would get cheesed, and it wouldn't make me mad, it's part of the game and it keeps people from getting too greedy.
But it was frustrating. I wasn't really having fun when laddering. My roommate even pointed it out, "when you ladder 1v1, you are the most depressing person on this floor." I was dabbling with other races, I liked drops with Terran, and I love Toss units. I eventually downloaded two replay packs, practiced my opening, and switched to toss.
And I have to say I have had so much fun with Protoss. Not saying that they're inherently cheesy race, but I cheese every fourth game on the nose because my roommate loved watching me cheese people. Regardless of who I was playing, I would proxy gateways, stargates, cannon rush, dt rush, the list goes on and on. Now I don't ladder that much, but I have made several observations since I added cheese builds into my arsenal of builds.
1.) Cheese is fun. I have had so much fun proxy gating people. It's hilarious when people get pissed. It's hilarious when they have an "OH SHIT" moment and box + a-move with SCVs into Zealots. I giggle uncontrollable when making my first hidden gateway, thinking "I hope they don't see me..."
2.) Cheese is intense. Some of my most intense games have been cheesy. Usually (like in the two replays I provided) the cheese isn't meant to end the game, only to give me a worker advantage for later on. Cheese and counter cheese games are actually really really heart pounding.
3.) Cheese improves your micro. This is self explanatory. Small unit battles, with 1-6 units on each side are the most fun for me, much cooler than 200/200 armies butting heads like idiots.
3a.) Still on the idea that it improves your micro, a 4 gate rewards good micro, it isn't just a-move and win like everyone thinks it is. A 1 gate proxy is all about micro, not just a-moving into marines/scvs. Having good macro is important, but flexing your micro muscles is sweet as well.
4.) Cheese rewards you with some quick and dirty wins. What's wrong with that? Who cares if it "doesn't improve your skill"?
All I am saying is that cheese isn't a bad thing. It's a calculated risk, just like everything you do on ladder. I fell in love with laddering by just deciding to cheese every fourth game. I think that is reason enough. My roommate even said that I seemed happier when I just chilled out with the crazy macro shit once in a while.
Thanks for reading! TL FIGHTING!!!
 
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Yeah man I hate macro too, having to make workers and building takes the fun out of the game.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
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On February 13 2011 10:28 Megaliskuu wrote:
Yeah man I hate macro too, having to make workers and building takes the fun out of the game.
yeah, fuck. having to do all that stuff at once is REALLY TIRING.
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On February 13 2011 10:42 jlim wrote:
I hate your music...
Haha there are like three different genres there. I like everything but country and folk really.
EDIT: Clearly people are going to troll. But hey, that's how the internet is. Express your opinions and anonymous cool kid drops some witty sarcasm on your post.
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Sorry but 1 gate proxy requires almost no micro
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On February 13 2011 11:49 tainted muffin wrote:
Sorry but 1 gate proxy requires almost no micro
I would like to disagree. A smart Terran player with studder step your Zealot back to his bunker. Attacking from several angles with multiple Zealots to snipe SCVs without getting overwhelmed requires a decent degree of micro. If you A-move your Zealot, you'll get surrounded by SCVs as he kills you with his marine and micros back his weak SCVs.
EDIT: Spelling.
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No hate on you. Most of us here are to enjoy the game and have fun which I totally agree with you. Completely talking down to cheese is stupid cause its obviously part of the game. There's too much of a negative attitude towards cheese, and it's like everyone just joins the bandwagon of "I hate cheese". I don't care about cheese at all. If I lose to it, then its okay, cause i'll move on. :D
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haha 6 pool ur doing it wrong
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"its improves your micro"
Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though.
Poor sc2 newbs 
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On February 13 2011 12:56 Hypnosis wrote:"its improves your micro" Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though. Poor sc2 newbs
Not to be rude but stuff dies extremely quickly in SC2, a lot faster than it did in SC1 or BW. Enjoy trying to micro 200/200 battles where units have extremely high DPS and the most micro you'll be going is dropping FF's and Storms, maybe some other trivial micro.
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The trick to being a solid player is being able to defend any cheese you play against.. As zerg, i imagine that is quite important (when I random as zerg, I drone scout everygame for sure to be safe)..
So basically, no one should be complaining about cheese, because if you play good you will rarely ever lose to it.
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Canada8031 Posts
On February 13 2011 13:41 GlocKomA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 12:56 Hypnosis wrote:"its improves your micro" Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though. Poor sc2 newbs Not to be rude but stuff dies extremely quickly in SC2, a lot faster than it did in SC1 or BW. Enjoy trying to micro 200/200 battles where units have extremely high DPS and the most micro you'll be going is dropping FF's and Storms, maybe some other trivial micro.
So basically you have to be faster to effectively micro your units? Sounds like good practice to me.
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Cheese is not fun. I'd go with an analogy that a 5 years old might get quite a laugh out of making people fall or get hurt in general, yet overall I'd say it is a short-term, one-sided 'fun' affair. Say all you want that you giggle while proxying your gateways, it'll still be frowned down by people who actually want to enjoy what lies beyond the 5 first minutes of the game.
Cheese is not as intense as 5 base macro wars, as seeing which player is going to break down first is a deeply more intense moment then if the cannon will die or not. The intensity of the moment is a build up, the longer the game has gone by, the bigger is the stress and the rivalry is. There's nothing intense about a 5 minutes game with a total of 20 units and a single skirmish.
Anything can help your micro to some extent. Cheese is absolutely not the best way to practice anything, there is better situations for that goal.
Saying what's wrong with dirty wins is somewhat ironic, as the wording would imply there is something wrong about the win. You know it's frowned upon for multiple reason, yet you convince yourself otherwise on the sole purpose of your own enjoyment and win-rate. It's quite egoistic by nature, which is why it is hated.
Cheese is not a calculated risk, because you described yourself that you simply hope that it is not discovered. It's a blind risk with high rewards and relatively low risk due the the very nature of SC2. I'd go with a poker analogy where you would always have better cards if you went all-in right off the bat, making it somewhat an easy-exit option for those wanting to avoid mindgames, yet I think I'd expose myself to way more knowledgeable poker players' retorts!
Overall, I hate cheese, stop cheesing and the world will be a better place!
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I love getting proxy gated in PvP, I don't mind getting cannon rushed either. Just stay calm and its an easy win
Although when they are in the last position i scout it can get tricky. I love getting fast pooled too.
I love the micro defense involved. Cheese doesn't help your lategame micro, thats a whole different story and even more important than single zeal vs. zeal battles
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On February 13 2011 13:48 Zamkis wrote:
Saying what's wrong with dirty wins is somewhat ironic, as the wording would imply there is something wrong about the win. You know it's frowned upon for multiple reason, yet you convince yourself otherwise on the sole purpose of your own enjoyment and win-rate.
This is why any argument against cheese falls flat on its face. If you can't beat an all-in strategy by just playing standard, then you're not good enough to play standard. (Ignoring grievous map imbalances like Steppes)
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On February 13 2011 12:56 Hypnosis wrote:"its improves your micro" Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though. Poor sc2 newbs
Lol.
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Cheesing every 4th game no matter what sounds like fun actually. I like when people make up arbitrary restraints like that. Plus the idea of "sorry buddy, nothing personal, but you're my 4th game so i'm gonna do something horrible to you" is pretty funny. With this I have more incentive to play "legit" on the other three too, so the 4th game can be something I can look forward to (or dread).
Sometimes when i ladder I get caught in this wishy-washy mentality where every game I end up going sorta macro/sorta all-in, and it usually ends up in a loss or just at least an ugly game. Now I can tell myself "these three games I'm gonna go all out macro mode, shitload of bases, upgrades out the wazoo etc... and then game four someone's going down fast and hard, quite possibly me".
So no, I don't hate you, in fact I'll probably copy you.
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[Only for rowing people: I pulled a 6:28 on a 2K as a lightweight!!!]
dude, congrats on the PR
what school do you row for?
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Vorce, if cheese is defeated by standard play, then it fails at doing what it is meant to do. Stopping cheese will oftentimes come down to luck in scouting your opponent's strategy in time, luck in BO that will be naturally stronger/weaker against certain cheeses, and decision making to change your standard play into defending cheese, which will usually bring you pretty far from a standard build down the road, if you manage to defend it. Simply saying that you're just not good enough if you can't defend cheese is pretty bold, almost ignorant, considering there's more then the skill-level of your standard play on the line.
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On February 13 2011 13:47 Spazer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 13:41 GlocKomA wrote:On February 13 2011 12:56 Hypnosis wrote:"its improves your micro" Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though. Poor sc2 newbs Not to be rude but stuff dies extremely quickly in SC2, a lot faster than it did in SC1 or BW. Enjoy trying to micro 200/200 battles where units have extremely high DPS and the most micro you'll be going is dropping FF's and Storms, maybe some other trivial micro. So basically you have to be faster to effectively micro your units? Sounds like good practice to me.
And what are you going to micro back in a 200/200 battle? Weak Stalkers? The micro in those big battles is limited to abilities as well as keeping weak void rays/Collosi in the back. And that isn't much of a challenge seeing as they just back up so easily because they fly/walk over other units.
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I love to cheese as well and relate to that hearth thumping feeling and high you get while proxy gating, I cheese only on specific MUs on certain maps. ie:
ZvT on metal --> cheese
PvT on Xel --> cheese
PvP on Shakuras --> cheese
They change time to time as I get tired of PvX on Y map or feel like I really should explore a certain MU on a certain map, like today I played 4 PvP on shakuras in a row loosing three of them then winning the fourth, so that replaced my PvP on DQ --> Cheese.
Also whenever some one doesn't say GL HF back after the 1 minute mark I proceed to DT rush them, however if they become responsive before the 4 minute mark I shift into a blink stalker hallu push, and if neither works I double expand and proceed to BM toilet them.
BM toilet:
Get fucking everything Acrhon, Collo, Carriers, Moship, VR, Dts, etc, out macro them with ninja expos and then after your death ball eliminates about 3/4 of their army then pull back and show up at their front door shortly after, vortex their considerably smaller army and throw all of your units into as well, proceed to BM in chat while the vortex is doing its thang, then win.
I don't hate you infact i love it when players cheese me because I feel so gosu when I fend off cheese, and it helps learn how cheese is defeated.
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Canada8031 Posts
On February 13 2011 15:34 GlocKomA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 13:47 Spazer wrote:On February 13 2011 13:41 GlocKomA wrote:On February 13 2011 12:56 Hypnosis wrote:"its improves your micro" Yea, youre 4 unit micro. Microing a shitload of units improves your micro even more though. Poor sc2 newbs Not to be rude but stuff dies extremely quickly in SC2, a lot faster than it did in SC1 or BW. Enjoy trying to micro 200/200 battles where units have extremely high DPS and the most micro you'll be going is dropping FF's and Storms, maybe some other trivial micro. So basically you have to be faster to effectively micro your units? Sounds like good practice to me. And what are you going to micro back in a 200/200 battle? Weak Stalkers? The micro in those big battles is limited to abilities as well as keeping weak void rays/Collosi in the back. And that isn't much of a challenge seeing as they just back up so easily because they fly/walk over other units.
If microing such a large army is so simple, then why isn't everyone playing at a pro level? My point was that there will always be room for improvement when microing in large scale battles. Years ago, people thought engaging lurkers with marines in BW was suicide, but nowadays, progamers like Flash can split their marines in seconds and make it look easy. You won't improve if you don't try.
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EPT
