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Darkkal
United States60 Posts
I admit, im one of those guys who clicks 90x on the same spot, but lately ive been pushing myself not to. I feel going a lot slower, but what is really happening is that I'm able to accomplish a whole shitton more with 90% less energy and 80% less clicking :D He really is the shit, you know? [edit] btw when i meant "clicking one unit at a time" i really meant when you want just one or two units, you should just click on them rather than boxing them, really makes sense.   | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
Do you really think someone like Jaedong gotten his micro by investing 90% less energy and 80% less clicking? | ||
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Darkkal
United States60 Posts
On February 10 2011 16:54 Sfydjklm wrote: Day is a smart fellow. The ways he managed to come up with original material that isnt wrong but at the same time is irrelevant is pretty impressive. Do you really think someone like Jaedong gotten his micro by investing 90% less energy and 80% less clicking? do you think Jaedong got his micro by clicking a million times in the same place? | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On February 10 2011 16:57 Darkkal wrote: do you think Jaedong got his micro by clicking a million times in the same place? it's well known that "clicking a million times in the same place" is used to keep your hands warmed up. | ||
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superllama
24 Posts
 (his mouse never even quivers, either; totally smooth, all the time.)I hear ya, OP; I've played so much SC2, for so long, I find myself @ 250 avg APM w/ the early-game spam taken out...but I never even have the actions to look at my army. Almost ever. Why? And then finally realized from that daily "Good macro" doesn't mean stare at your base all game, and mid-game spam is still spam! (spam as in flipping b/w bases for no reason, i'm not just spam-selecting workers lol) Whenever Day9 talks about mechanics, I sit up and listen. He was stupid-fast, consistently 300 APM no doubt, and he's been doing it for 11 years. There are doctors that perform SURGERY w/ less years of experience than that. Day9 Fighting! PS I wish people would stop being all anti-mainstream @ Day9. People saying "Day9 can be wrong" -- well, yeah, but he never is, because he understands how little we all know about SC2, so he never states absolutes. He never says, "This T build is the best" or something ridiculous like that; he just points stuff out. But mechanics? Yeah, he'll stake his credibility on that, and for good reason. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:02 superllama wrote: ...Yeah, that's exactly how he got his micro actually, Sfydjklm. Go watch some of his FPVODS on youtube and you'll see what I mean: Not a wasted click when he micros. Consuming AROUND a Defiler just never quite gets it to eat the ling (his mouse never even quivers, either; totally smooth, all the time.)stop using randomly stringed together non related facts to support your subjective opinions. Yes jaedong has good micro, shocking. Surely he consciously worked on being precise but did he give up his speed to earn precision? No. Let me give you an example. When you play rhythm games do you practice @ difficulty settings that allow you to bat 100% or do you go with speed where you barely, but able, to keep up? | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:02 superllama wrote: ...Yeah, that's exactly how he got his micro actually, Sfydjklm. Go watch some of his FPVODS on youtube and you'll see what I mean: Not a wasted click when he micros. Consuming AROUND a Defiler just never quite gets it to eat the ling (his mouse never even quivers, either; totally smooth, all the time.)I hear ya, OP; I've played so much SC2, for so long, I find myself @ 250 avg APM w/ the early-game spam taken out...but I never even have the actions to look at my army. Almost ever. Why? And then finally realized from that daily "Good macro" doesn't mean stare at your base all game, and mid-game spam is still spam! (spam as in flipping b/w bases for no reason, i'm not just spam-selecting workers lol) Whenever Day9 talks about mechanics, I sit up and listen. He was stupid-fast, consistently 300 APM no doubt, and he's been doing it for 11 years. There are doctors that perform SURGERY w/ less years of experience than that. Day9 Fighting! PS I wish people would stop being all anti-mainstream @ Day9. People saying "Day9 can be wrong" -- well, yeah, but he never is, because he understands how little we all know about SC2, so he never states absolutes. He never says, "This T build is the best" or something ridiculous like that; he just points stuff out. But mechanics? Yeah, he'll stake his credibility on that, and for good reason. No, you don't especially if your talking about SC2 APM, 250 non spam APM would be like 350+ effective actions. Even the fastest BW pros only played at 200-230 non spam APM. On the subject of JD he is one of the heavier spamming pros. Frequently gets 350-400 APM and around 200+ eapm. Bisu is much lower spam, usually playing around 280-320 APM but with similar eapm. On February 10 2011 17:06 Sfydjklm wrote: stop using randomly stringed together non related facts to support your subjective opinions. Yes jaedong has good micro, shocking. Surely he consciously worked on being precise but did he give up his speed to earn precision? No. Let me give you an example. When you play rhythm games do you practice @ difficulty settings that allow you to bat 100% or do you go with speed where you barely, but able, to keep up? Clicking on the same spot a million times is not speed though. If i spammed boxes all day and got 400 APM I don't think anyone would call me fast by any measure. Additionally in BW there was more "spam" clicking to begin with as using this type of clicking helped to control the pathing much better. I somewhat agree with what Day is promting though because this kind of thing helps make you more aware of your mouse, and thus provides a clever way of getting you to focus on mouse accuracy. Moreover the basic idea is that is you can click on your target exactly with just one click, you will be faster than someone who clicks 10 times until his cursor comes to land on the precise spot. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:13 L_Master wrote: Clicking on the same spot a million times is not speed though. If i spammed boxes all day and got 400 APM I don't think anyone would call me fast by any measure. Additionally in BW there was more "spam" clicking to begin with as using this type of clicking helped to control the pathing much better. I somewhat agree with what Day is promting though because this kind of thing helps make you more aware of your mouse, and thus provides a clever way of getting you to focus on mouse accuracy. Moreover the basic idea is that is you can click on your target exactly with just one click, you will be faster than someone who clicks 10 times until his cursor comes to land on the precise spot. As i said, Day is not wrong. I'm sure with enough dedication people can break down APM improvement to a science, just like in a real sport. The thing is tho, right now we have no idea which way of improving one's grasp on controls is the best one, so what Day says simply bares no tangible consequence. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote: As i said, Day is not wrong. I'm sure with enough dedication people can break down APM improvement to a science, just like in a real sport. The thing is tho, right now we have no idea which way of improving one's grasp on controls is the best one, so what Day says simply bares no tangible consequence. Okay, I'd buy that argument, though logically to me some of what Day said does make sense. I do think examining the faster progamers might be a reasonable place to look though, especially if we notice obvious differences in mouse/screen/etc control between fast progamers and average speed ones. Certainly won't offer any conclusive evidence though because its a small sample and its reasonable to think some people just multitask better than others. On February 10 2011 17:30 superllama wrote: @L_Master: yeah i'm talking about APM as in real-time minute...mebbe I can link 1 of my reps somehow lemme find out how. And note how I in my post implied that I indulged in "mid-game spam" (i.e. useless actions towards mid-game), which...you know...if you read the rest of the post, you'd see. Here's 1 @ 230 or something like that w/ the 1st 4 minutes taken out (thanks sc2gears!), lemme just find out how to post it! brb! @Sfydjklm - Speed is useless without precision. What makes Jaedong so good is not that he clicks around the Defiler, it's that he clicks ON it. It's not subjective; my source is the game rule that states the only way to move a Defiler is to click on it! (disregarding hotkeys). If you never actually click on it, you CAN'T micro. Clicks around it are simply wasted time.  I'm sad you accused me of this. I don't replay to anything until I have read pretty much the entire thread. Since you were talking sc2 I was assuming you likely meant SC2 APM. And yeah some level of spam is assumed anyway, so I had already accounted/thought of mid-game spam since almost everyone does some of that to one degree or another. | ||
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superllama
24 Posts
yeah i'm talking about APM as in real-time minute...mebbe I can link 1 of my reps somehow lemme find out how. And note how I in my post implied that I indulged in "mid-game spam" (i.e. useless actions towards mid-game), which...you know...if you read the rest of the post, you'd see. Here's 1 @ 230 (i think?) or something like that w/ the 1st 4 minutes taken out (thanks sc2gears! I never count early-game spam), wish I knew how to post the sc2gears analysis lol, but you can just multiply the end of the rep by 1.33 and eyeball the early-game spam...or just throw it in sc2gears yourself! just a messing-around experimental game, before anyone judges us XD [url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=187994][img]http:// @Sfydjklm - Speed is useless without precision. What makes Jaedong so good is not that he clicks around the Defiler, it's that he clicks ON it. It's not subjective; my source is the game rule that states the only way to move a Defiler is to click on it! (disregarding hotkeys). If you never actually click on it, you CAN'T micro. Clicks around it are simply wasted time. | ||
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Tipany
United States368 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:30 superllama wrote: @L_Master: yeah i'm talking about APM as in real-time minute...mebbe I can link 1 of my reps somehow lemme find out how. And note how I in my post implied that I indulged in "mid-game spam" (i.e. useless actions towards mid-game), which...you know...if you read the rest of the post, you'd see. Here's 1 @ 230 or something like that w/ the 1st 4 minutes taken out (thanks sc2gears!), lemme just find out how to post it! brb! @Sfydjklm - Speed is useless without precision. What makes Jaedong so good is not that he clicks around the Defiler, it's that he clicks ON it. It's not subjective; my source is the game rule that states the only way to move a Defiler is to click on it! (disregarding hotkeys). If you never actually click on it, you CAN'T micro. Clicks around it are simply wasted time. But at the same time its better to click and miss then to never click at all! Personal experience- spam helps out a lot. I can honestly say that being a sort of anti-APM obsession elitist has set me back a lot in SCBW. When i started SC2 i came in with a firm belief that spam is the way to imrpove. And i did. I got a lot better, faster, and precise. Granted now that i run @ over 200 SCBW apm in improtant matches i try to focus on precision but i still feel that i am simply not fast enough to utilize the full ability of the zerg race(P and T would prolly have lower reqs judging by morrow and TLO comments.) So unless you're running at that sort of speed throw precision out of ya head. It's all about spam until you hit those upper bounds. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On February 10 2011 17:31 TheJoyBringer wrote: How can I watch this video you speak of? http://blip.tv/file/4712303 | ||
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superllama
24 Posts
And none of us, me, you, Day9, Jaedong, Deep Blue, NOONE will ever have enough APM to harness this friggin' race! But when it comes down to it, you still gotta click on the unit. And you need precision for that, or you're actually wasting time clicking around it instead of on it. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
While its not perfect eapm is a much better indicator of ones speed and multitasking abilities, though there is no substitute for straight up observing them. That's why Idra rapes, though he's slow as molasses, and Drewbie, etc. etc. It's because they're using their time wisely while in-game. I wouldn't call IdrA slow even though, as I was getting at above low APM does not ensure slowness, but it does and can often correlate it. To me speed is all about how well you multitask and how much stuff you're doing. A 400 APM player that does nothing looks slow to some degree (even if his mousesceen are doing stuff) and a 250-300 APM player that is efficient will look insanely fast. | ||
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superllama
24 Posts
@edit: Gah I should use more quotes. . . I mean Idra and Drewbie are slow. If you look @ their APM in replays, and that's how you judge "speed", they're slow. But if you look @ how they manage their time. . . their efficiency, their eAPM i.e. . . . they're "fast." (But more importantly, they're "good." :D) So yeah, we agree on what "fast" and "slow" mean, I'm just being unclear 'cause I'm stupid. I hope people who read this actually understand that, 'cause I don't want to be the guy who turns this into another one of THOSE APM threads. Please God TL, don't do it. Like, seriously. But now (hopefully) with this daily I can turn that into *e*APM! Hooray! Haha | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
I think there's nothing wrong in they Day[9] encourages people to work up their APM. It's better to waste little time on one task and always move to the other than spam click. If it's to warm your hands up you can warm them up by doing every task faster. Early game is a different thing, progamers spam a worker to build barracks 5 times because that's when the number of useful things to do are limited. Of course you don't build precision in a short time. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
I'm clueless as to what you are actually arguing? How can Day9's point be irrelevant? Even if spamming does keep your movement and handspeed up, you need to learn how to do the Right actions at the Right time, and if you can also use the handspeed you've spammed up in corelation to precise actions you will be faster than someone that just patiently clicks the correct spot all the time. Problem is that when you spam too much you can get into a bad habit and as a new player you might keep doing it "wrong" even though you're spamming fast. I can't see at all why this is irrelevant? Your subjective thoughts on why Jaedong is fast is just as good as anyone elses. He spams and have spammed alot, but I'd consider that he started off by doing things more precise and with precise movement uped his handspeed and thus getting faster And precise movement. So while spamming can help you and get faster and more precise doing it in the order of -> Beeing precise -> Spam will help you improve faster and not put you in bad habbits. You'd be surprised by how many bad habbits you yourself probably have even if you consider yourself to be very precise. Also, BW is alot different to SC2 in the regard of handspeed. Sure it's needed, but not at all in the same regard as in BW for all obvious reasons. I personally spam alot aswell, but have lately tried to tone down and just do everything at the right time, and it has helped me quite abit. I also notice that when I do it like that my APM is higher in mid -> endgame than before. | ||
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