Today, my blog will be discussing whether you, TL, likes the SC BW Corsair... or the SC2 Phoenix. This has probably been discussed already, however I'd like to reopen it.
SC BW Corsair: 80 shield 100 hp 5 damage plus splash. Ability: Disruption Web The Starcraft Brood War Corsair is most commonly used in Protoss versus Zerg. They are excellent for overlord snipes, scouting info, and probably the best unit for DPS AtA. Commonly used in great numbers in some builds like the Sair/Reaver or the Sair/DT, they killed overlords, while supporting the respective build units (reavers and DT). However, outside of PvZ, they are extremely rare. PvP probably has NEVER seen Corsair, but of course I could be wrong, after all I've only been following Starcraft since 4 years ago... Corsairs are also rare in PvT, although there is the D-Web build where the Protoss disruption webs the Terran tank line and barrels in with a huge ball. But mainly, Corsairs are used only in PvZ.
Starcraft 2 Phoenix: 60 shield 120 hp 5 damage. Ability: Graviton Beam The Phoenix was made popular by one player from TL, Nony/Liquid'Tyler himself. Phoenix play commonly is based upon killing workers or picking off large attacking forces. In PvP, people normally use the Phoenix to pick off Immortals or Collosi. Once they have an advantage in army sizes, they overrun the opponent. In PvT, the Phoenix are used to pick off the tanks, letting the weak marines die. In PvZ, the Phoenix are used like the Corsair, getting scouting info, picking off overlords, and ever killing queens.
So the question is, corsair or phoenix? Disable units, or kill units? I personally feel that the Phoenix is the better unit. What do you think?
It's kinda comparing apples to oranges. What they have in common is that they are both protoss air units who damage other air units. That's not to say that phoenix' are the replacement of corsairs.
I have to say though phoenix' are more versatile all around... they can be useful in any matchup and aren't usually nullified by the unit composition of the opponent.
BUT, phoenix' don't allow you to mow down a 25 overlord farm in 3 seconds when nub-bashing :p
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
I guess it's pretty much personal preference. Personally, I think that Corsairs do a much much better job at anti-air. If they were in SC2 it would help a lot against Mutas, but w/e.
Kinda off topic, but I wonder if it would be useful to add like 2-3 corsairs with dweb very late game vs Terran. Dwebing front tanks would be very handy, or goliaths if you have carriers, also they could snipe vessels for you arbiters. Then again, they could just emp all your sairs and they're pretty much ineffective :/
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
Someone's never played bw
What's wrong with what he said?
Aside from having a worse avatar/voice, Phoenixes are way better than Corsairs were, probably even when comparing +1 sairs vs. mutas to phoenix vs. muta. They do 10 damage and +10 to light. Yeah, AoE eventually out does that, but in the 6 units range, I'd definitely take phoenixes over corsairs in PvZ. Plus Graviton is actually useful and in this silly hypothetical, you wouldn't have to worry about scourge if you had a phoenix.
On January 03 2011 02:31 Jibba wrote: Plus Graviton is actually useful and in this silly hypothetical, you wouldn't have to worry about scourge if you had a phoenix.
The ability to kite using phoenix is pretty much as useful (if not more, since it would be better against scourge or *too many mutas* or other units that would force it to flee) than the corsairs area of effect ability. It would have been amazing to have in BW, and currently is pretty darn useful to have in SC2.
Also, graviton beam is a heck of a lot more useful than disruption web >.>
I feel that phoenixes were what scouts were meant to be. If scouts started with speed and cheaper we would see them used like phoenixes. Scouts could shoot backwards without slowing down, forcing the zerg to get ground anti air rather than relying scourge to get air dominance. That said, phoenix is still superior because of their anti grav ability.
On January 03 2011 02:02 micronesia wrote: It's kinda comparing apples to oranges. What they have in common is that they are both protoss air units who damage other air units. That's not to say that phoenix' are the replacement of corsairs.
I have to say though phoenix' are more versatile all around... they can be useful in any matchup and aren't usually nullified by the unit composition of the opponent.
BUT, phoenix' don't allow you to mow down a 25 overlord farm in 3 seconds when nub-bashing :p
true =P i loved sending a couple sair to the zerg's corner where they stack there ov's and supply block them.
It used to be possible to open 1 stargate sair PvT on island maps. The reason phoenixes are better is that graviton beam comes with the unit, while you have to get a fleet beacon to research dweb, which is basically only for sair/carrier PvZ lategame.
Phoenix are also very good against Mutas since I can shoot while moving and Mutas are not able to hit if they are micro correctly so they're very good in PvZ. In Pvt they're just good for picking off scv's and for harass. I think phoneix is more useful than Corsairs.
I never played BW at any real level in terms of 1v1, can someone tell me why corsair d-web wasn't used that much? It seems to me to be a very strong ability if microed properly.
On January 03 2011 02:57 sikyon wrote: I never played BW at any real level in terms of 1v1, can someone tell me why corsair d-web wasn't used that much? It seems to me to be a very strong ability if microed properly.
You need a fleet beacon for it, it takes forever to build energy (you also need the energy upgrade to cast two per corsair), and it doesn't last that long. Also, no smartcasting so slapping down a lot of dwebs effectively is very difficult.
I think I remember corsairs being used in PvP for BW (that was Nal_rA vs Bisu in the GomTV MSL S1 semi-finals i think), but I believe that the map was an island-ish map, where you needed shuttles to transport units over. Aside from that, I prefer phoenixes over corsairs since phoenixes can kite so easily and have the graviton beam (which is really cheap in energy). As much as disruption web is useful, it takes a lot of energy, and you need a lot of corsairs to make it work. With the same number of phoenixes, you can do a lot of graviton beams and kill a lot of units.
Corsair can kill stacked overlords or muta that an opponent isn't paying attention to in about 5 seconds. BAM all your overlords piling in a corner dead. Or BAM all your mutalisku and scourgu dead. That's more exciting from a spectator point of view. More exciting from a player point of view too, when you consider that you're walking on a wire as Zerg, and you have so much to gain as Protoss if you can just get into the right situation. Kind of like why Reavers are a million times more interesting than colossi. Sure they are slow and need A LOT of attention, but when that big boom gets off it is SO satisfying.
Phoenix just kind of... picks off helpless units... It's pretty boring. There's no "OMG RUN MY WORKERS!" it's just "oh, there's a Phoenix and there's nothing I can do about it until anti air arrives." Wow that's really interesting gameplay thx
I prefer corsairs in terms of fighting air units because splash against Muta ball is huge. Graviton Beam is a really fun ability though, and the Phoenix has more roles - but sairs are more of a mainstay in a matchup.
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
Someone's never played bw
What's wrong with what he said?
Aside from having a worse avatar/voice, Phoenixes are way better than Corsairs were, probably even when comparing +1 sairs vs. mutas to phoenix vs. muta. They do 10 damage and +10 to light. Yeah, AoE eventually out does that, but in the 6 units range, I'd definitely take phoenixes over corsairs in PvZ. Plus Graviton is actually useful and in this silly hypothetical, you wouldn't have to worry about scourge if you had a phoenix.
I think it's mainly the in the different roles that Mutas play that defines the effectiveness of each. In bw there were never more than 11 mutas in a group really, and usually stacked- so even a handful of corsair could completely shut that down. However, since there isn't the same stacking in SC2, corsairs would be less effective since mutas can go toe to toe with corsairs when they aren't stacked. As well, you often see muta flocks of close to 20, which would pick off corsairs before they could do any real damage.
Anyways, corsairs are a better fit in bw, and Pheonix are a better fit in SC2- either would be worse in the other game.
On January 03 2011 03:14 Dfgj wrote: I prefer corsairs in terms of fighting air units because splash against Muta ball is huge. Graviton Beam is a really fun ability though, and the Phoenix has more roles - but sairs are more of a mainstay in a matchup.
Hard to call.
I agree with this
also disruption web was freaking awesome in sc1 cuz it went so well with reavers
speaking of which, reaver vs collossi. i think everyone would choose reaver m'i'rite?
I pretty much look at it like this. Whats the main purpose of corsair/phoenix? Kill air units. Which does it better? Corsair.
The phoenix definitely has multiple uses and is very powerful, but I just think the corsair is a more useful unit, or rather one that I would rather use than a phoenix.
Remember Bisu's game versus Jaedong where he went mass corsair with d-web, reaver, and carrier? That would not have worked without the corsairs. Plus from a spectator's point of view phoenixes are so much less exciting.
Phoenixes are more flexible because of being able to pick up and disable ground units, but Corsairs are unquestioningly better as AtA superiority units. Also, Disruption Web was so damn good yet underused.
IMO, the Phoenix would suck if it replaced the Corsair in BW. No splash damage means that stacked Mutas would fare much better when picking off Phoenixes.
The Corsair would suck if it replaced the Phoenix in SC2. Magic-Boxing Mutas would pretty much nullify most splash damage.
Protoss player should learn to go Corsairs more often beside PvZ, PvT, they can shut down early game harassment pretty well with it and it can fake the Terran thinking that Carriers are on the way only to find themselve to be crushed by a Sair-goon army!
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
was i the only one who thought this blog would be about RAM? lol
i like the corsair better, personally. in critical mass those things were absolutely beastly and they had more uses in PvZ than they did in BW (scouting, sair/reaver, sair/dt, sair/carrier). who knows, though- over time we may see sc2 evolve to incorporate phoenixes in PvZ to the same degree that corsairs were involved in bw's PvZ.
when i said phoenix, i said phoenix in terms of flexibility and the ability to do more things than a sair. however, i prefer a sair because its just plain awesome and its one of my favorite units in sc
On January 03 2011 02:02 micronesia wrote: It's kinda comparing apples to oranges. What they have in common is that they are both protoss air units who damage other air units. That's not to say that phoenix' are the replacement of corsairs.
I must say that I do think these units are quite comparable? They are both built from the same structure, are equally massable, equally sized(sorta) partwise same purpose, only require stargate to be built and they are the only two units who damage other air units only with normal attack while they both have a spell that fucks with ground units(but don't kill them).
Quite similar;o
There's a custom map that included all the SC1 units. Once or twice i've been making collossus PvT and to counter his vikings i've built a few corsairs and they absolutely ripped the vikings apart. Further forcefields and d-web is quite silly on that map if you manage to get it up (your army is trapped and can't shoot)
So basically corsairs would probably be huge in sc2 as well as phoenix being huge in bw ;o
I like the phoenix slightly more due to usability being better but it's really even.
I think what makes the Phoenix feel slightly better than Corsair is that it comes with it's own spell. Corsair's ability needs to spend resource on a fleet beacon AND upgrade.
On January 03 2011 02:02 micronesia wrote: It's kinda comparing apples to oranges. What they have in common is that they are both protoss air units who damage other air units. That's not to say that phoenix' are the replacement of corsairs.
I must say that I do think these units are quite comparable? They are both built from the same structure, are equally massable, equally sized(sorta) partwise same purpose, only require stargate to be built and they are the only two units who damage other air units only with normal attack while they both have a spell that fucks with ground units(but don't kill them).
Quite similar;o
You can talk about how corsairs would be in sc2 or how phoenix' would be in bw... those would both be reasonable comparisons. But, to just compare the units, stand alone, isn't taking into account the different roles they each fill in their respective game. I hope my point is clear.
Saying which unit is 'better' or 'worse' depends on the context.
On January 03 2011 02:02 micronesia wrote: It's kinda comparing apples to oranges. What they have in common is that they are both protoss air units who damage other air units. That's not to say that phoenix' are the replacement of corsairs.
I must say that I do think these units are quite comparable? They are both built from the same structure, are equally massable, equally sized(sorta) partwise same purpose, only require stargate to be built and they are the only two units who damage other air units only with normal attack while they both have a spell that fucks with ground units(but don't kill them).
Quite similar;o
You can talk about how corsairs would be in sc2 or how phoenix' would be in bw... those would both be reasonable comparisons. But, to just compare the units, stand alone, isn't taking into account the different roles they each fill in their respective game. I hope my point is clear.
Saying which unit is 'better' or 'worse' depends on the context.
i guess your right. it just comes down to biased opinions. However, you could attempt to view them where there are the same (pretty much attacking).
On January 03 2011 02:04 BearStorm wrote: The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
Not really....
in PvP reaver/shuttle is a harassment option but is also a pushing option. I can't see a solid dragoon/reaver timing push losing to any phoenix build imaginable. Yeah, try to snipe the shuttle.... and lose all your phoenixes in the process to dragoon fire. Even if you get the shuttle I can just unload the reaver and keep pushing while building another shuttle
On January 03 2011 03:12 Chef wrote: Corsair can kill stacked overlords or muta that an opponent isn't paying attention to in about 5 seconds. BAM all your overlords piling in a corner dead. Or BAM all your mutalisku and scourgu dead. That's more exciting from a spectator point of view. More exciting from a player point of view too, when you consider that you're walking on a wire as Zerg, and you have so much to gain as Protoss if you can just get into the right situation. Kind of like why Reavers are a million times more interesting than colossi. Sure they are slow and need A LOT of attention, but when that big boom gets off it is SO satisfying.
Phoenix just kind of... picks off helpless units... It's pretty boring. There's no "OMG RUN MY WORKERS!" it's just "oh, there's a Phoenix and there's nothing I can do about it until anti air arrives." Wow that's really interesting gameplay thx
This post is so incredibly true. I feel that when blizzard was designing sc2 they didn't really think enough about making units that create dynamics that are interesting to the viewer. The colossus looks pretty and all... but it's not nearly as interesting to watch as reaver control is in BW.
Think about BW hive TvZ with lurker/ling/filer vs SK Terran... the way the armies move around so much, fleeing from swarms, getting plagued, distracting the zerg to sneak in a dropship, etc is much more exciting from a spectator point of view than anything i've seen in sc2. The scourge itself creates marvelous amounts of excitement.... will it hit or not? Especially considering the micro moves people use to dodge scourges or more clone them...
I'd go with phoenix, not just because it's more agile and versatile, but main reason you don't need to upgrade graviton beam. Corsairs would be 1000x useful(in all matchups) + fun if not requiring 500 400 minerals total to get the damned web.
On January 03 2011 03:27 emperorchampion wrote: Anyways, corsairs are a better fit in bw, and Pheonix are a better fit in SC2- either would be worse in the other game.
I'm pretty sure phoenixs would be better in bw. They wouldn't die to scourge in small battles, and you could kill mutas forever with 1 phoenix since you outrange them.
pretty much all units are more dps/life whatever in sc2 with the restructuring... cant deny superior style and feeling of corsairs. It is a good day to die. Haha, At last.
On January 04 2011 03:03 dogabutila wrote: I'm pretty sure phoenixs would be better in bw. They wouldn't die to scourge in small battles, and you could kill mutas forever with 1 phoenix since you outrange them.
Ahah, with sc2 physics? No chance patrol mutas are somewhat imba in this sense, but make for great microing
The phoenix is far superior to the corsair. They would revolutionize PvP in BW since they would deny reaver/shuttles so easily and can snipe high templar. In SC2, phoenix play doesn't only scout and hunt overloads. They can be used to harass mineral lines and pick off key units.
Someone's never played bw
Haha sorry man but I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Corsairs would eliminate spire openings in PvZ. This is because the scouting phoenix would never be chased away by scourge. Instead it would kill the scourge and continue sniping overlords.
On January 03 2011 01:55 FlaShFTW wrote: PvP probably has NEVER seen Corsair, but of course I could be wrong, after all I've only been following Starcraft since 4 years ago..
Well, they have been suggested by Blizzard to be used in PvP. After all, let me quote the official battle report from the StarCraft Brood War Beta Tournament:
Agent911 concedes and the sweet taste of victory belongs to Zileas. Had Agent911 been building Corsairs instead of Scouts, he might have been able to pull this strategy off, but the added cost of the Scout compared to the Corsair meant that Agent didn't have enough ground troops to properly defend himself.
OP listed damage stats wrong for each unit. Nix actually do 5(+1)(x2) +5 against Light and Sair does 5(+1) 100% vs large, 75% vs medium, 50% vs small. and the small splash does 1/2 and 1/4 splash at 50 and 100 pixel distance respectively. Sairs attack much faster in relation to game speed than Nix do as well. Also left out the fact that Nix can move and shoot without commands and can shoot during backwards movement.
Pheonix are quite cool with the movement and grav beam, but as a Zerg player who dabbled in toss a bit in BW, there is no feeling quite like seeing an assload of sairs run into your base and just decimate your air fleet and all your OL.
Corsairs have a much cooler-looking ship design, but phoenixes automatically win by being able to shoot while flying backwards.
...Uh, but yeah, I'd have to say phoenixes edge out sairs just slightly, the combination of grav beam letting them pick off crucial units like queens/tanks/hts and the high speed + attacking while moving aspect would let them easily, with micro that is, out-dogfight any light air unit including scourge. Sairs are kind of an old-world unit in that they just straight-up brute-force en masse and that's basically it, phoenixes are more of a finesse and versatile unit.
However disruption web is badass and should definitely replace corruption.
Phoenixs might appear in more matchups than the Corsair did, but the Corsair's effect on PvZ in BW is alot greater than any effect the Phoenix has in a MU in SC2. I'll take the Corsair any day. The Corsair was awesome, while the Phoenix is just cute.
EPT
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