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On December 30 2010 03:09 News wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:58 ]Grey[ wrote:
I don't think it bothers my anywhere near as much as it bothers you, but I feels similarly. I don't mind when people make mistakes, but when they don't try at all to type in a understandable manner, then that annoys me. Why should I have to work harder to read your sentence just because you're too lazy to add the occasional capital letter, comma or period? Winner. And to the OP - your weren't complex and eloquent enough in that essay of yours so you haven't really proven to have the aforementioned skill set. I'm not sure who you've tried to cater to but it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level you've claimed it to be. Opening paragraphs with 'seriously' and 'in my eyes' is not something a mature writer would do. Having said this I'm not a native speaker and have probably made 10 mistakes of my own.
There are a lot of things that I didn't do here that I would have done in other situations. For instance, in a formal essay, I would have avoided any form of the verb "to be," avoided the first and second person perspectives, used compound and complex sentences more effectively, and combined a lot of ideas. If I was to attempt some form of creative writing, I would have experimented with diction, sentence structure, and maybe some technique like stream of consciousness.
The OP is a rant, and thus caters to my need to vent my frustration. If you really need some kind of tangible proof, I'm sure I can find some example of my writing that better exemplifies my skills.
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I am billingual; perhaps exactly because of that I am quite comfortable at rudimentary English grammar and understanding (IB English yeah!). Yeah, you bring up the stupidest example I think - heh - but deliberate deviation from formal English, a.k.a. net speak, is what gets to me the most as I believe someone has already pointed out.
Edit: Oh wow, this thread is quickly becoming island haven for sticklers- should be fun to see funny/frustrating RL examples people bring up in their rage xD
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On December 30 2010 03:45 Hesmyrr wrote:Edit: Oh wow, this thread is quickly becoming island haven for sticklers- should be fun to see funny/frustrating RL examples people bring up in their rage xD
Grammar snobs...
UNITE!
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On December 30 2010 02:37 Seltsam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:34 bonifaceviii wrote:Understanding language isn't just a matter of memorizing obscure or unnecessary facets of communication. Language is the basis for the sharing of ideas, and therefore the most important aspect in their evolution. Therefore small, ignorant mistakes of grammar aren't important as long as the proper idea is shared. Right? Proper understanding of writing allows ideas to be shared with greater accuracy. Particularly in the subject of philosophy and literature, the ideas being conveyed are not concrete; thus, a lack of understanding of language would result in the writing being misinterpreted. In this example, the idea is not actually conveyed. Additionally, study of language often provides an education that equips you to greater understand the ideas in general, even if they have already been conveyed effectively. Being better with language actually helps to make you better at thinking in general. Sharing ideas effectively is actually mutually inclusive with the effectiveness of the language used. For instance, if you're conveying a mathematical concept and some figure is slightly out of place (a plus sign instead of a multiplication sign, or some such error), the idea as a whole will not be conveyed effectively.
If you are concerned about the accuracy of communication in addition to the proper sharing of ideas, you should probably just learn Lojban. English is not exactly the most rigorous language out there.
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I don't like Lojban. It's all of the rules with none of the artistry.
And it isn't capable of communicating non-concrete ideas, which are usually the most applicable to the human condition.
I feel like part of the beauty of language is in its complexity.
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I fully appreciate this blog, and it annoys me when my friends write college papers the way I wrote my elementary school essays. You'd be surprised how many English majors are terrible at English. They pay me to correct their papers, and I was a math major!
I use semicolons in text messages too 
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If you truly are so frustrated by the style of writing commonly found on public forums on the internet, you should probably stop browsing said forums. For example, if I was extremely intelligent in real life and hated having to converse and socialize with stupid people, I would simply avoid such people and attempt to surround myself with people of similar intellect. I wouldn't write to a stupid kid asking him to better educate himself and become more well-read.
Oh but what's that? You actually still enjoy the material presented by the forum? The stupid kid you hate is actually a hot girl you are in love with? Then maybe you should just put up with her shortcomings.
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I get angry every time someone writes "would of" instead of "would have" or "would've". It's not like it's incredibly much faster than "would've" so why not just write that.
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On December 30 2010 03:04 Seltsam wrote:
Y'know what else? Commas!
Commas everywhere!
When I'm doing proofreading or editing, I think the comma splice is one of the most common errors people make. For instance: "It was cold, it was rainy." This is a comma splice since "it was cold" and "it was rainy" are separate ideas, both with a subject and a verb. The comma should be a period (although it would be stylistically better to write "it was cold and rainy").
I think this problem stems from the commonly-taught "rule" that commas go where there is a verbal pause in the sentence. People follow this ideology fairly closely, and it plagues a lot of people's writings.
Also, I was just rereading this post (as I do with almost all of my posts) to make sure I didn't make any silly typos, and I thought of another one. People who use "sense" and "since" interchangeably. That bugs the hell out of me too.
Actually, when within quotation marks a comma is properly used as a verbal pause. I have experience as a playwright and studied at a performing arts school, we were taught grammar and elocution from a very young age. When writing a novel, speech or play and crafting diologue you use the comma to indicate to the reader to pause for either flow, turn of phrase, effect (after a revelation perhaps), for applause or laughter. Therefore in dialogue "It was cold, it was rainy" is perfectly acceptable, as if someone asked you a question such as "How was the weather?" the response is spoken and spoken grammar and written grammar are two completely different things.
Most people don't ever get taught proper grammatical speech, hell, most don't even get taught written grammar. However, verbal grammar is slightly different and how it is represented in written form is also different. As any good speech writer will tell you, where a person likes their commas takes time to learn. This is because when spoken aloud, where you place the comma can change the tone of the speech. This effect does not happen on paper because the words themselves hold the meaning and not the tone and rhythm of the voice speaking them.
find a copy of the script to your favourite TV show or play, when you read it you will go mad because the grammar is all wrong. It isn't, you just haven't learnt how to turn speech into writing for correct interpretation.
edit: I'm actually going to explain the difference between "it was cold. it was rainy" and "it was cold, it was rainy"
If i were reading a script and the line read "it was cold. it was rainy" then i would interpret the delivery to be in an angered or frustrated tone. The period indicates a blunt stop to speech and in such a short sentence that usually indicates the words to be said in anger or frustration or with particular emphasis.
If it were "it was cold, it was rainy" i would take it to be more resigned, an admission of things less than perfect but expected.
If it were "it was cold and rainy" then it would be a simple flat admission of the circumstances with that having been the expected response.
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I agree with everything you said, and you don't sound that pretentious. I try to be correct when using English, but I admit I'm not perfect.
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On December 30 2010 04:17 Enervate wrote:
If you truly are so frustrated by the style of writing commonly found on public forums on the internet, you should probably stop browsing said forums. For example, if I was extremely intelligent in real life and hated having to converse and socialize with stupid people, I would simply avoid such people and attempt to surround myself with people of similar intellect. I wouldn't write to a stupid kid asking him to better educate himself and become more well-read.
Oh but what's that? You actually still enjoy the material presented by the forum? The stupid kid you hate is actually a hot girl you are in love with? Then maybe you should just put up with her shortcomings.
If you found a blog on an internet forum that espouses ideas you don't like or with which you disagree, would you post telling the author that you think he's wrong, or would you simply avoid such a person's writing and attempt to surround yourself with people whose ideas reflect your own?
I'm sorry, it's just that I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish with your post. Perhaps you misunderstood that I was simply venting frustration? Because that's honestly all I was doing. Plus, I had hoped to hear some posts from some like-minded people so that I could reaffirm that I'm not the only person in the world who feels the way I do. I realize that I'm not, and it's not like I forget that on occasion, but it's nice to see it in a tangible way sometimes.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with your ideology. I have a degree in education and teach at a high school level. I've seen a rampant disregard for language since I was in middle school, and I aim to try to rectify the problem in whatever way I can, no matter how insignificant or futile it may seem.
On December 30 2010 04:19 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 03:04 Seltsam wrote:
Y'know what else? Commas!
Commas everywhere!
When I'm doing proofreading or editing, I think the comma splice is one of the most common errors people make. For instance: "It was cold, it was rainy." This is a comma splice since "it was cold" and "it was rainy" are separate ideas, both with a subject and a verb. The comma should be a period (although it would be stylistically better to write "it was cold and rainy").
I think this problem stems from the commonly-taught "rule" that commas go where there is a verbal pause in the sentence. People follow this ideology fairly closely, and it plagues a lot of people's writings.
Also, I was just rereading this post (as I do with almost all of my posts) to make sure I didn't make any silly typos, and I thought of another one. People who use "sense" and "since" interchangeably. That bugs the hell out of me too. Actually, when within quotation marks a comma is properly used as a verbal pause. I have experience as a playwright and studied at a performing arts school, we were taught grammar and elocution from a very young age. When writing a novel, speech or play and crafting diologue you use the comma to indicate to the reader to pause for either flow, turn of phrase, effect (after a revelation perhaps), for applause or laughter. Therefore in dialogue "It was cold, it was rainy" is perfectly acceptable, as if someone asked you a question such as "How was the weather?" the response is spoken and spoken grammar and written grammar are two completely different things. Most people don't ever get taught proper grammatical speech, hell, most don't even get taught written grammar. However, verbal grammar is slightly different and how it is represented in written form is also different. As any good speech writer will tell you, where a person likes their commas takes time to learn. This is because when spoken aloud, where you place the comma can change the tone of the speech. This effect does not happen on paper because the words themselves hold the meaning and not the tone and rhythm of the voice speaking them. find a copy of the script to your favourite TV show or play, when you read it you will go mad because the grammar is all wrong. It isn't, you just haven't learnt how to turn speech into writing for correct interpretation.
You are correct; however, what you refer to falls under the category of dialect, which has its own set of rules (or lack thereof) in order to maintain flow (as you mentioned). You're completely right, but I always viewed dialect as more of a giant exception. While I don't have much experience as a play-write, I do have a little over a decade of acting experience and I do remember seeing a lot of the things to which you're referring.
My issue is more with colloquial situations (or academic writing) and the errors that appear so commonly in those situations.
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England2674 Posts
Anyone who complains about failure to understand and abide by the simple laws of grammar, punctuation and so on, should know not to put a comma in the second to last object of a list before the word "and". If you're going to rant about this kind of thing, be certain to make sure you don't make silly mistakes of your own.
Secondly, snuck is a real and perfectly acceptable word. At least on this side of the Atlantic.
I agree with your point though.
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On December 30 2010 04:14 Seltsam wrote:
I don't like Lojban. It's all of the rules with none of the artistry.
And it isn't capable of communicating non-concrete ideas, which are usually the most applicable to the human condition.
I feel like part of the beauty of language is in its complexity.
Can you give an example of a non-concrete idea that cannot be communicated by Lojban? I myself do not speak the language but from what I understand poems and such are possible.
I must say though, I do not appreciate the complexity of language. Language is to me a simple tool to be used in the expression of ideas and communication. Tools are designed to be simple. As a tool, simplicity, not complexity, in language is beautiful to me.
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Seltsam, if it makes you feel better, I found a grammar mistake in your OP.
These are the kind of things that make me want to reach through the computer screen and slap people with a second grade grammar booklet.
(Should be "kinds" of things.)
Also, you used the saying "free reign", which actually should be free rein... Free reign is in common usage nowadays but it's because people are retarded. Free rein as in a horse's reins and when you leave them free, the horse can move about without the bit hurting them. Free reign makes no sense... If you're "reigning" then you probably call the shots. And a free reign sounds like someone gave you a crown for free or that you're ruling without consequence, in which case why not just say dictatorship?
Lastly, snuck can be used as the past tense of sneak.
In my opinion though, it's not very important. I agree there is a certain threshold of proficiency people should reach so that their writing can at least be intelligible, but grammar Nazis are just as bad. As a writer, I have a decently liberal interpretation of grammar (such as not using commas before conjunctions like and as or but. I think it's excessive), and I think sometimes grammar rules are unnecessarily constricting or just outright stupid. Overall though, I agree with you, but I wouldn't go as far as to rant about it and act like my English is so far beyond anyone else's. Languages are interpretive and writing even more so. There isn't really one right way to do things.
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you're argument makes no sense to me. Their isn't anything more to language than semantics, no?
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On December 30 2010 04:30 Flicky wrote:
Anyone who complains about failure to understand and abide by the simple laws of grammar, punctuation and so on, should know not to put a comma in the second to last object of a list before the word "and". If you're going to rant about this kind of thing, be certain to make sure you don't make silly mistakes of your own.
Secondly, snuck is a real and perfectly acceptable word. At least on this side of the Atlantic.
I agree with your point though.
That's actually a UK grammar rule. In the USA, we can put commas before each word of a list. Such as, I bought oranges, apples, and peaches.
Kind of hilarious though because it shows how arbitrary grammar is.
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On December 30 2010 04:25 Seltsam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:17 Enervate wrote:
If you truly are so frustrated by the style of writing commonly found on public forums on the internet, you should probably stop browsing said forums. For example, if I was extremely intelligent in real life and hated having to converse and socialize with stupid people, I would simply avoid such people and attempt to surround myself with people of similar intellect. I wouldn't write to a stupid kid asking him to better educate himself and become more well-read.
Oh but what's that? You actually still enjoy the material presented by the forum? The stupid kid you hate is actually a hot girl you are in love with? Then maybe you should just put up with her shortcomings. If you found a blog on an internet forum that espouses ideas you don't like or with which you disagree, would you post telling the author that you think he's wrong, or would you simply avoid such a person's writing and attempt to surround yourself with people whose ideas reflect your own? I'm sorry, it's just that I don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish with your post. Perhaps you misunderstood that I was simply venting frustration? Because that's honestly all I was doing. Plus, I had hoped to hear some posts from some like-minded people so that I could reaffirm that I'm not the only person in the world who feels the way I do. I realize that I'm not, and it's not like I forget that on occasion, but it's nice to see it in a tangible way sometimes. I'm afraid I have to disagree with your ideology. I have a degree in education and teach at a high school level. I've seen a rampant disregard for language since I was in middle school, and I aim to try to rectify the problem in whatever way I can, no matter how insignificant or futile it may seem. Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:19 emythrel wrote:On December 30 2010 03:04 Seltsam wrote:
Y'know what else? Commas!
Commas everywhere!
When I'm doing proofreading or editing, I think the comma splice is one of the most common errors people make. For instance: "It was cold, it was rainy." This is a comma splice since "it was cold" and "it was rainy" are separate ideas, both with a subject and a verb. The comma should be a period (although it would be stylistically better to write "it was cold and rainy").
I think this problem stems from the commonly-taught "rule" that commas go where there is a verbal pause in the sentence. People follow this ideology fairly closely, and it plagues a lot of people's writings.
Also, I was just rereading this post (as I do with almost all of my posts) to make sure I didn't make any silly typos, and I thought of another one. People who use "sense" and "since" interchangeably. That bugs the hell out of me too. Actually, when within quotation marks a comma is properly used as a verbal pause. I have experience as a playwright and studied at a performing arts school, we were taught grammar and elocution from a very young age. When writing a novel, speech or play and crafting diologue you use the comma to indicate to the reader to pause for either flow, turn of phrase, effect (after a revelation perhaps), for applause or laughter. Therefore in dialogue "It was cold, it was rainy" is perfectly acceptable, as if someone asked you a question such as "How was the weather?" the response is spoken and spoken grammar and written grammar are two completely different things. Most people don't ever get taught proper grammatical speech, hell, most don't even get taught written grammar. However, verbal grammar is slightly different and how it is represented in written form is also different. As any good speech writer will tell you, where a person likes their commas takes time to learn. This is because when spoken aloud, where you place the comma can change the tone of the speech. This effect does not happen on paper because the words themselves hold the meaning and not the tone and rhythm of the voice speaking them. find a copy of the script to your favourite TV show or play, when you read it you will go mad because the grammar is all wrong. It isn't, you just haven't learnt how to turn speech into writing for correct interpretation. You are correct; however, what you refer to falls under the category of dialect, which has its own set of rules (or lack thereof) in order to maintain flow (as you mentioned). You're completely right, but I always viewed dialect as more of a giant exception. While I don't have much experience as a play-write, I do have a little over a decade of acting experience and I do remember seeing a lot of the things to which you're referring. My issue is more with colloquial situations (or academic writing) and the errors that appear so commonly in those situations.
in an academic sense, i agree whole heartedly with you. When writing for an audience (play,TV, speech, novel) you must write in a way that conveys your message to those who will be performing the material, they will usually have a good understanding of spoken grammar. When writing for academic purposes you should always use standard grammatical punctuation or else you could be misinterpreted or worse, made to look uneducated ;p
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just smoke some green and chill out
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On December 30 2010 04:35 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:30 Flicky wrote:
Anyone who complains about failure to understand and abide by the simple laws of grammar, punctuation and so on, should know not to put a comma in the second to last object of a list before the word "and". If you're going to rant about this kind of thing, be certain to make sure you don't make silly mistakes of your own.
Secondly, snuck is a real and perfectly acceptable word. At least on this side of the Atlantic.
I agree with your point though. That's actually a UK grammar rule. In the USA, we can put commas before each word of a list. Such as, I bought oranges, apples, and peaches. Kind of hilarious though because it shows how arbitrary grammar is.
In the US you technically don't speak English. You speak American English, which has its own spelling and grammar. So no its not arbitrary, in all other countries that speak or learn English (perhaps with the exception of Canada) they use English and our grammatical norms, not American ones.
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EPT
