EPTWhy sc2 is the way it is now - Page 2
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tube
United States1475 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:07 IcyPringle wrote: Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on. SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard. There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do. I don't know about you, but I think OP's post is so high level. Would you rather have another unit based whine that's so commonly seen nowadays? It may make the game unique from BW, but who's to say we're not better off without them? I for one appreciate the thought put into the post, Warp gates/Chrono, Spawn Larva, and MULES all give advantages that hard to quantify for both the opposing player. I don't like how MULES are able to make such a significant impact on the game to the point of being able to out-harvest a large amount of workers. It's probably why we see so much Marine-oriented play nowadays, and it's getting rather tiresome to deal with/watch. I'm not entirely sure how their balance team is going to evaluate how much these macro mechanics affect the current game and change them though, seems so complex to me. Oh and the maps are a given, small maps make it a lot less entertaining, I've tried to watch blobs vs blobs for a while now and I really don't get how people get excited over that kind of thing, but that's just me. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play. Maybe SC2 may not be as good as BW now, but I think it still has potential to surpass it after a few years of metagame development, patches, and expansions. Nothing is set in stone right now. Only time will tell which game is truly better. Plays during the first years of vanilla SC1 or BW certainly are not impressive compared to what we have now. Likewise, I think people playing SC2 in 2020 will point back and laugh at the plays being done now in 2010 just as we do to the earliest VODs of SC1. | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:28 konadora wrote: if my guess is correct, then the megaliskuu u quoted has been around as much as you did lol (though i'm not sure about it!) i've learnt not to target people by their join dates. i'd suggest you do the same. I thought microlisk was megalisk? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
fake walrus imo. | ||
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote: Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.> If you are who I think you are: I missed you. =( but on topic: Personally, I'd prefer not to start pointing the fingers at what's wrong with SC2 yet. The game is in it's infancy and I'm sure that the team at Blizzard is trying it's best to balance the game and make it on-par with SC1. The thing that Blizzard is trying to do is make SC2 an epic game like BW, but they don't want to completely rely on the mechanics and base of BW since SC2 != BW. Just give the game some time, and eventually these mechanics you're worried about will show how they fit in to the game overall. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:51 eviltomahawk wrote: Cheese may not currently be popular in BW, but it has been a huge part of the game's history. Flash was known as a cheesy player early in his career. Jaedong wasn't afraid to occasionally 4pool. SlayerS_BoxeR wasn't afraid to bunker rush or marine+SCV all-in during his games. Bisu once pulled off a proxy gateway. If any of these players did the same thing in SC2, they would be flamed on the forums and would be cited as an example of how SC2 is broken. Popularity correlates positively with viability. Cheese is not popular in High level BW because it often isn't viable. Flash 14cc gets punished by 9 pool. Jaedong 4pooled Flash on grandline iirc flash scouted and didn't let the lings up the ramp into gg for jaedong. Boxer bunker rush upon scouting 12 hatch is not cheese. IMO, the fault lies not with the macro mechanics but with the players and the maps. Most of the official Blizzard map pool outright encourages cheesy play (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands), so players take advantage of this and cheese more often. If every map was as well made as modern BW maps or ICCup maps, then the metagame would be much different with the macro-oriented games that everyone have been clamoring for. The game is young. The official map pool sucks. Yet, today's cheeses are not indicative of how the game will evolve after another year or two of play. I agree with what much of what you've said here. Problem is Blizzard is locked in this frankly retarded vicious cycle wherein they nerf and buff certain things based on trends seen in silver level play. Why is BW balanced? Because it has a third axis of balance which is map balance which kind of stabalises balance issues with tactical workarounds (rush distance, cliffs, ramps etc..) | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On December 07 2010 11:17 rift wrote: The maps are responsible for ridiculously effective allins. GOMtv/Blizzard better incorporate new maps to GSL/Ladder for the 2011 season, or shit will get real bad very fast; hell, it already is. After reading what IdrA and ret said about having to go hatch first vs a perceived all-in, otherwise they'd be BEHIND on eco worries me. That's one of the reasons I think these macro mechanics shouldn't be around/toned down. So you have to delay your own units, expand and rely on pure drone/ling micro to defend that kind of push, and the Terran still has an economy after pulling SCVs... whether it's imbalanced is one thing, but that doesn't seem like sound strategical gameplay to me. Expected reponse would be: cut some economy for more units earlier, beat back the push which should have weakened his economy, be ahead, because that all-in push was supposed to kill/cripple you. It's doesn't sound like they were caught unawares, sounds like they knew it was coming but was still forced into that course of action. MULES add to the confusion, another reason why I think the balance team is going to have a hard time with this. It's just... weird for me. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
Thanks for agreeing! | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
The ellipsis is a powerful weapon... | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote: Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.> Agreed. | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
but the OP's point is worth discussing.... | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
And seriously people, don't use join dates/post count as an excuse to invalidate someones post, thats just stupid. | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also cancel MBS and smart-casting | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play. I think people that make posts like this make them because they are huge flame bait or they cannot swallow the pill that people may enjoy SC2 alongside SC1 and not like one more than the other or care "which is better." They both are awesome imo. As for the macro mechanics...yah...blizzard is not gonna change such huge design things this deep in, so we'll just have to play it the way it is in that respect. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:55 avilo wrote: I think people that make posts like this make them because they are huge flame bait or they cannot swallow the pill that people may enjoy SC2 alongside SC1 and not like one more than the other or care "which is better." They both are awesome imo. As for the macro mechanics...yah...blizzard is not gonna change such huge design things this deep in, so we'll just have to play it the way it is in that respect. Nah I wasn't trying to make flame-bait at all. BW simply is the better game of the two, but that doesn't mean SC2 is bad or anything. It's a pretty fun game, but I don't believe it will ever reach the level of in-depthness of BW simply of basic features of the game that Blizzard ever consider changing. I think if people can just accept this, there will be no arguments. Anybody who argues that SC2 is a better game than BW right now...well either you didn't play BW or you don't know RTS period. Nobody can reasonably argue that a game that has been played competitively for...11 years or so...is trumped by a game that is not even a year old. Logically it makes zero sense. Anyway, let's just all agree that SC2 can be pretty darn fun, but it's not as good as BW, and most likely will not reach the in-depth level of BW. If you played both games at some competitive level for an extended period of time, you should be able to understand this. | ||
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