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Alright, I'll explain why SC2 is the way it is now.
In SC1, it was a combination of the maps, and having enough time to react to things that made the game strategic. Good players can scout their opponents, see stuff coming, and have enough time to react. This made BW the strategic game that it is today. Cheesers have lower success rate in this environment.
With SC2, we have new macro mechanics. The new macro mechanics are responsible for most of the imbalances/rushing that we see today. In short, they are entirely to blame. It's not Terran, or scvs, or reapers, or 4 warp gates. It's all the macro mechanics behind all 3 races.
The macro mechanics break the game away from a strategic game to a rush-oriented cheesefest because it's so easy to be aggressive.
Example: In BW the proud Protoss were the highly advanced race with strong, durable units that were few in numbers. In SC2, gateway units have become much weaker than in BW and P units no longer have that uniqueness.
Why? Chrono-boost and warp gates. Chronoboost in combination with warp gates make pumping out units a lot faster and easier. Whereas in BW a good player can take a look at somebody's gateway count and figure out how many units they'll have in X time, warp-gates (which reduce unit build times) and chronoboost greatly unbalance this steady strategic aspect. This means even the smartest, best players will have trouble predicting what will come.
Secondly, in BW armies had to march across the map. A zergling or an overlord can see an army move out and make the necessary adjustments. With warp-ins, the Protoss can reinforce and have a huge army at your door in minutes. Again, there's no time to react or do anything intelligent or strategic.
Overall, I feel like a slower game is a more strategic game. The new macro mechanics are all aimed to push things out faster, harder, and in larger numbers. This combined with the increased game speed probably means Blizzard wanted to make SC2 more action-oriented.
When I think of strategy, I think of a game like chess. You see their moves, you react, make your own moves. In SC2, any noob can deny scouting info and go all-in extremely hard with 4 warpgates, 2 hatch +2 queens, or 4 rax.
The 4warpgate rush was probably responsible for 90% of Protoss nerfs. Almost every patch note P's units were nerfed. Blizzard came out with these new macro mechanics and now they're running all over the place nerfing units, spells, etc to try to balance the mess they've created.
Where does SC2 go from here? Who knows. I'd like to see the macro mechanics nerfed and not the units.
 
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macro mechanics also help the defender, so its helps both o.o i don't see your point.
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I'm sorry, but I've read about 12.4 of these blogs about "where sc2 is now". Where all the OPs think they can explain "where the game is now".
The game changes, why are we talking about where it is now when in two weeks its gonna be different?
EDIT: Also, SC1 is not SC2.
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On December 07 2010 09:46 celious wrote:
macro mechanics also help the defender, so its helps both o.o i don't see your point.
^ Someone has obviously never played/followed BW.
Anyways, I agree with most of your points, especially with the point of SC2 requiring less mechanics as well as the diminished role of scouting/adapting etc.
However, I disagree with you that SC2 is more action-oriented. BW is much more action-oriented with the engagement micro, macro, and mechanics, something SC2's MBS and ball vs. ball lacks.
SC2 just feels more of a rock/paper/scissors game as opposed to the beautiful strategic game BW is.
Also OP, I hope you know that your post will get lots of flak from new SC2 peeps who never really played BW at a competitive level to really compare the two or know what they are talking about.
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Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
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Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on.
SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard.
There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do.
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Uh so whats the point? what i conclude from this huge text (and waste of time) is that youre a bw fan and somehow hate sc2 with tear in your eyes and wish somehow something that never will happen change so that maybe you could be glad sc2.
waste of time, since i wasted time reading the first paragraph i needed to waste a lil more to post.
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actually yea, warp in almost negates the defender advantage which was the only way to tech up or expo safely in bw. now with that gone, aggression or mass units is the only way to play a safe game. (i.e. 4gatin in pvp at highest levels)
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United States428 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
Joined TL.net Wednesday, 27th of October 2010
On December 07 2010 10:07 IcyPringle wrote:
Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on.
SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard.
There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do.
Joined TL.net Monday, 1st of November 2010
Guys, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you didn't play much if any broodwar... How could you possibly think that you are contributing to this thread by posting? Not trying do be a dick, but I don't understand why people post simply for the sake of posting.
OT: I think you are mostly correct. I feel that chrono boost was effectively breaking the game during beta, and yes that is why we saw protoss get nerfed so badly. In general, game elements which allow the time element of the game to be "bent" low in the tech tree, such as warp gates, stifles strategic play somewhat.
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konadora
Singapore66063 Posts
if my guess is correct, then the megaliskuu u quoted has been around as much as you did lol
(though i'm not sure about it!)
i've learnt not to target people by their join dates. i'd suggest you do the same.
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![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_35kDzNt-gTQ/RpmeXjcag9I/AAAAAAAAACE/Bpo04QrGBvc/s320/dead+horse.gif)
Doesn't matter when they joined, the sc vs sc2 discussion is stupid and leads nowhere. You raise some valid points about the macro mechanics, personally I thought they felt gimmicky and like a bad attempt at bringing something original into rts just for the sake of bringing something original into rts. But the fact that you bring up sc vs sc2 is going to prevent any sort of worthwhile discussion from taking place.
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The OP has a valid point, but I feel that the role maps are playing can't be overlooked.
If the GSL were being played on the latest ICCUP map pool I think you would see the use of cheese and worker all-ins greatly diminish (timing pushes would obviously still be strong). I'm not saying a better map pool would solve everything but it would definitely help by giving players more time to react and improving the defender's advantage.
Either way I'm starting to get worried about the direction the game has been heading in lately. It seems that games where both players have 3+ bases and try to out-maneuver each other are few and far between at the moment.
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On December 07 2010 10:26 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.> Joined TL.net Wednesday, 27th of October 2010
lol
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume...
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Brilliant. In one deliciously worded op, you have single handedly clarified everything about what makes the current game broken. Clearly, this forum is not for you, since the people here probably can't grasp your insights. You're just a straight shooter with upper level game design written all over you. Send your resume to Blizzard and attach this post as a reference, I for one recommend you highly.
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United States428 Posts
lol
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume...
Yes, that's exactly what I said, you guys don't have to get so butthurt lol
Oh I guess everyone must do this, well I guess I can't count on the whole "thou shall respect your id" thing...
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It's not the macro mechanics, it's the lack of solid defender's advantage.
There's still no high ground advantage
Many naturals are still wide open with huge chokes
Warp in allows both sides to reinforce equally fast
There goes like, all the defender's advantages in BW.
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I don't think the macro mechanics are to blame for the cheeses. They might contribute at this point of the metagame, but I think players will eventually develop better scouting and safer builds to counter today's prevalent cheese. Keep in mind that SC2 is still a young game, and a lot of the counter-cheese that had been developed in BW over the years can still occur in SC2.
Cheese may not currently be popular in BW, but it has been a huge part of the game's history. Flash was known as a cheesy player early in his career. Jaedong wasn't afraid to occasionally 4pool. SlayerS_BoxeR wasn't afraid to bunker rush or marine+SCV all-in during his games. Bisu once pulled off a proxy gateway. If any of these players did the same thing in SC2, they would be flamed on the forums and would be cited as an example of how SC2 is broken.
IMO, the fault lies not with the macro mechanics but with the players and the maps. Most of the official Blizzard map pool outright encourages cheesy play (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands), so players take advantage of this and cheese more often. If every map was as well made as modern BW maps or ICCup maps, then the metagame would be much different with the macro-oriented games that everyone have been clamoring for.
The game is young. The official map pool sucks. Yet, today's cheeses are not indicative of how the game will evolve after another year or two of play.
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Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play.
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EPT
