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Alright, I'll explain why SC2 is the way it is now.
In SC1, it was a combination of the maps, and having enough time to react to things that made the game strategic. Good players can scout their opponents, see stuff coming, and have enough time to react. This made BW the strategic game that it is today. Cheesers have lower success rate in this environment.
With SC2, we have new macro mechanics. The new macro mechanics are responsible for most of the imbalances/rushing that we see today. In short, they are entirely to blame. It's not Terran, or scvs, or reapers, or 4 warp gates. It's all the macro mechanics behind all 3 races.
The macro mechanics break the game away from a strategic game to a rush-oriented cheesefest because it's so easy to be aggressive.
Example: In BW the proud Protoss were the highly advanced race with strong, durable units that were few in numbers. In SC2, gateway units have become much weaker than in BW and P units no longer have that uniqueness.
Why? Chrono-boost and warp gates. Chronoboost in combination with warp gates make pumping out units a lot faster and easier. Whereas in BW a good player can take a look at somebody's gateway count and figure out how many units they'll have in X time, warp-gates (which reduce unit build times) and chronoboost greatly unbalance this steady strategic aspect. This means even the smartest, best players will have trouble predicting what will come.
Secondly, in BW armies had to march across the map. A zergling or an overlord can see an army move out and make the necessary adjustments. With warp-ins, the Protoss can reinforce and have a huge army at your door in minutes. Again, there's no time to react or do anything intelligent or strategic.
Overall, I feel like a slower game is a more strategic game. The new macro mechanics are all aimed to push things out faster, harder, and in larger numbers. This combined with the increased game speed probably means Blizzard wanted to make SC2 more action-oriented.
When I think of strategy, I think of a game like chess. You see their moves, you react, make your own moves. In SC2, any noob can deny scouting info and go all-in extremely hard with 4 warpgates, 2 hatch +2 queens, or 4 rax.
The 4warpgate rush was probably responsible for 90% of Protoss nerfs. Almost every patch note P's units were nerfed. Blizzard came out with these new macro mechanics and now they're running all over the place nerfing units, spells, etc to try to balance the mess they've created.
Where does SC2 go from here? Who knows. I'd like to see the macro mechanics nerfed and not the units.
 
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macro mechanics also help the defender, so its helps both o.o i don't see your point.
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I'm sorry, but I've read about 12.4 of these blogs about "where sc2 is now". Where all the OPs think they can explain "where the game is now".
The game changes, why are we talking about where it is now when in two weeks its gonna be different?
EDIT: Also, SC1 is not SC2.
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On December 07 2010 09:46 celious wrote:
macro mechanics also help the defender, so its helps both o.o i don't see your point.
^ Someone has obviously never played/followed BW.
Anyways, I agree with most of your points, especially with the point of SC2 requiring less mechanics as well as the diminished role of scouting/adapting etc.
However, I disagree with you that SC2 is more action-oriented. BW is much more action-oriented with the engagement micro, macro, and mechanics, something SC2's MBS and ball vs. ball lacks.
SC2 just feels more of a rock/paper/scissors game as opposed to the beautiful strategic game BW is.
Also OP, I hope you know that your post will get lots of flak from new SC2 peeps who never really played BW at a competitive level to really compare the two or know what they are talking about.
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Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
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Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on.
SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard.
There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do.
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Uh so whats the point? what i conclude from this huge text (and waste of time) is that youre a bw fan and somehow hate sc2 with tear in your eyes and wish somehow something that never will happen change so that maybe you could be glad sc2.
waste of time, since i wasted time reading the first paragraph i needed to waste a lil more to post.
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actually yea, warp in almost negates the defender advantage which was the only way to tech up or expo safely in bw. now with that gone, aggression or mass units is the only way to play a safe game. (i.e. 4gatin in pvp at highest levels)
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On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
Joined TL.net Wednesday, 27th of October 2010
On December 07 2010 10:07 IcyPringle wrote:
Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on.
SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard.
There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do.
Joined TL.net Monday, 1st of November 2010
Guys, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you didn't play much if any broodwar... How could you possibly think that you are contributing to this thread by posting? Not trying do be a dick, but I don't understand why people post simply for the sake of posting.
OT: I think you are mostly correct. I feel that chrono boost was effectively breaking the game during beta, and yes that is why we saw protoss get nerfed so badly. In general, game elements which allow the time element of the game to be "bent" low in the tech tree, such as warp gates, stifles strategic play somewhat.
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konadora
Singapore66356 Posts
if my guess is correct, then the megaliskuu u quoted has been around as much as you did lol
(though i'm not sure about it!)
i've learnt not to target people by their join dates. i'd suggest you do the same.
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![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_35kDzNt-gTQ/RpmeXjcag9I/AAAAAAAAACE/Bpo04QrGBvc/s320/dead+horse.gif)
Doesn't matter when they joined, the sc vs sc2 discussion is stupid and leads nowhere. You raise some valid points about the macro mechanics, personally I thought they felt gimmicky and like a bad attempt at bringing something original into rts just for the sake of bringing something original into rts. But the fact that you bring up sc vs sc2 is going to prevent any sort of worthwhile discussion from taking place.
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The OP has a valid point, but I feel that the role maps are playing can't be overlooked.
If the GSL were being played on the latest ICCUP map pool I think you would see the use of cheese and worker all-ins greatly diminish (timing pushes would obviously still be strong). I'm not saying a better map pool would solve everything but it would definitely help by giving players more time to react and improving the defender's advantage.
Either way I'm starting to get worried about the direction the game has been heading in lately. It seems that games where both players have 3+ bases and try to out-maneuver each other are few and far between at the moment.
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On December 07 2010 10:26 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.> Joined TL.net Wednesday, 27th of October 2010
lol
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume...
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Brilliant. In one deliciously worded op, you have single handedly clarified everything about what makes the current game broken. Clearly, this forum is not for you, since the people here probably can't grasp your insights. You're just a straight shooter with upper level game design written all over you. Send your resume to Blizzard and attach this post as a reference, I for one recommend you highly.
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lol
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume...
Yes, that's exactly what I said, you guys don't have to get so butthurt lol
Oh I guess everyone must do this, well I guess I can't count on the whole "thou shall respect your id" thing...
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It's not the macro mechanics, it's the lack of solid defender's advantage.
There's still no high ground advantage
Many naturals are still wide open with huge chokes
Warp in allows both sides to reinforce equally fast
There goes like, all the defender's advantages in BW.
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I don't think the macro mechanics are to blame for the cheeses. They might contribute at this point of the metagame, but I think players will eventually develop better scouting and safer builds to counter today's prevalent cheese. Keep in mind that SC2 is still a young game, and a lot of the counter-cheese that had been developed in BW over the years can still occur in SC2.
Cheese may not currently be popular in BW, but it has been a huge part of the game's history. Flash was known as a cheesy player early in his career. Jaedong wasn't afraid to occasionally 4pool. SlayerS_BoxeR wasn't afraid to bunker rush or marine+SCV all-in during his games. Bisu once pulled off a proxy gateway. If any of these players did the same thing in SC2, they would be flamed on the forums and would be cited as an example of how SC2 is broken.
IMO, the fault lies not with the macro mechanics but with the players and the maps. Most of the official Blizzard map pool outright encourages cheesy play (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands), so players take advantage of this and cheese more often. If every map was as well made as modern BW maps or ICCup maps, then the metagame would be much different with the macro-oriented games that everyone have been clamoring for.
The game is young. The official map pool sucks. Yet, today's cheeses are not indicative of how the game will evolve after another year or two of play.
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Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play.
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join date is the new post count
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On December 07 2010 10:07 IcyPringle wrote:
Macro Mechanics make the game unquie from BW, you obviously haven't seen high level play if you think that cheese is the only thing that's going on.
SC2 is surging forward twice as fast as BW ever hoped to go, people are coming up with innovative builds everyday with pros showing us how its done. Yes every race has mechanics to make a good cheese build but those same mechanics can be used to macro up or just standard.
There's really no point in even typing anything here, your just another player comparing SC2 to BW and going "look look! its not the same! more cheese, more gay, more blah blah balh.." and that's probably the stupidest thing you can do.
I don't know about you, but I think OP's post is so high level.
Would you rather have another unit based whine that's so commonly seen nowadays? It may make the game unique from BW, but who's to say we're not better off without them?
I for one appreciate the thought put into the post, Warp gates/Chrono, Spawn Larva, and MULES all give advantages that hard to quantify for both the opposing player. I don't like how MULES are able to make such a significant impact on the game to the point of being able to out-harvest a large amount of workers. It's probably why we see so much Marine-oriented play nowadays, and it's getting rather tiresome to deal with/watch.
I'm not entirely sure how their balance team is going to evaluate how much these macro mechanics affect the current game and change them though, seems so complex to me.
Oh and the maps are a given, small maps make it a lot less entertaining, I've tried to watch blobs vs blobs for a while now and I really don't get how people get excited over that kind of thing, but that's just me.
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On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play.
Maybe SC2 may not be as good as BW now, but I think it still has potential to surpass it after a few years of metagame development, patches, and expansions. Nothing is set in stone right now. Only time will tell which game is truly better.
Plays during the first years of vanilla SC1 or BW certainly are not impressive compared to what we have now. Likewise, I think people playing SC2 in 2020 will point back and laugh at the plays being done now in 2010 just as we do to the earliest VODs of SC1.
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On December 07 2010 10:28 konadora wrote:
if my guess is correct, then the megaliskuu u quoted has been around as much as you did lol
(though i'm not sure about it!)
i've learnt not to target people by their join dates. i'd suggest you do the same.
I thought microlisk was megalisk?
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On December 07 2010 11:06 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:28 konadora wrote:
if my guess is correct, then the megaliskuu u quoted has been around as much as you did lol
(though i'm not sure about it!)
i've learnt not to target people by their join dates. i'd suggest you do the same. I thought microlisk was megalisk?
fake walrus imo.
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On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
If you are who I think you are: I missed you. =(
but on topic: Personally, I'd prefer not to start pointing the fingers at what's wrong with SC2 yet. The game is in it's infancy and I'm sure that the team at Blizzard is trying it's best to balance the game and make it on-par with SC1.
The thing that Blizzard is trying to do is make SC2 an epic game like BW, but they don't want to completely rely on the mechanics and base of BW since SC2 != BW. Just give the game some time, and eventually these mechanics you're worried about will show how they fit in to the game overall.
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The maps are responsible for ridiculously effective allins. GOMtv/Blizzard better incorporate new maps to GSL/Ladder for the 2011 season, or shit will get real bad very fast; hell, it already is.
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On December 07 2010 10:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
Cheese may not currently be popular in BW, but it has been a huge part of the game's history. Flash was known as a cheesy player early in his career. Jaedong wasn't afraid to occasionally 4pool. SlayerS_BoxeR wasn't afraid to bunker rush or marine+SCV all-in during his games. Bisu once pulled off a proxy gateway. If any of these players did the same thing in SC2, they would be flamed on the forums and would be cited as an example of how SC2 is broken.
Popularity correlates positively with viability. Cheese is not popular in High level BW because it often isn't viable. Flash 14cc gets punished by 9 pool. Jaedong 4pooled Flash on grandline iirc flash scouted and didn't let the lings up the ramp into gg for jaedong. Boxer bunker rush upon scouting 12 hatch is not cheese.
IMO, the fault lies not with the macro mechanics but with the players and the maps. Most of the official Blizzard map pool outright encourages cheesy play (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands), so players take advantage of this and cheese more often. If every map was as well made as modern BW maps or ICCup maps, then the metagame would be much different with the macro-oriented games that everyone have been clamoring for.
The game is young. The official map pool sucks. Yet, today's cheeses are not indicative of how the game will evolve after another year or two of play.
I agree with what much of what you've said here. Problem is Blizzard is locked in this frankly retarded vicious cycle wherein they nerf and buff certain things based on trends seen in silver level play. Why is BW balanced? Because it has a third axis of balance which is map balance which kind of stabalises balance issues with tactical workarounds (rush distance, cliffs, ramps etc..)
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A big problem I see is that the game is being balanced based on Blizzard maps, and, well, Blizzard maps suck ass to be frank. They're terribly designed, with inconveniently massive entrances to the natural and gimmicky back rocks and whatnot, but most importantly short rush distances. Even the biggest maps are still really small compared to the maps in BW. We already see Zerg getting huge advantages from larger rush distances (cross position metalopolis, shakuras, etc), just imagine what it'll be like when there are proper maps in place. I think a lot of rebalancing is going to have to be done.
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On December 07 2010 11:17 rift wrote:
The maps are responsible for ridiculously effective allins. GOMtv/Blizzard better incorporate new maps to GSL/Ladder for the 2011 season, or shit will get real bad very fast; hell, it already is.
After reading what IdrA and ret said about having to go hatch first vs a perceived all-in, otherwise they'd be BEHIND on eco worries me. That's one of the reasons I think these macro mechanics shouldn't be around/toned down.
So you have to delay your own units, expand and rely on pure drone/ling micro to defend that kind of push, and the Terran still has an economy after pulling SCVs... whether it's imbalanced is one thing, but that doesn't seem like sound strategical gameplay to me.
Expected reponse would be: cut some economy for more units earlier, beat back the push which should have weakened his economy, be ahead, because that all-in push was supposed to kill/cripple you. It's doesn't sound like they were caught unawares, sounds like they knew it was coming but was still forced into that course of action. MULES add to the confusion, another reason why I think the balance team is going to have a hard time with this.
It's just... weird for me.
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On December 07 2010 11:05 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play. SC2 may not be as good as BW...
Thanks for agreeing!
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On December 07 2010 11:36 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:05 eviltomahawk wrote:On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play. SC2 may not be as good as BW... Thanks for agreeing!
The ellipsis is a powerful weapon...
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Edit:I typed a bunch of stuff but my phone is stupid and only posted one sentence ugggg.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.>
Agreed.
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Canada2480 Posts
On December 07 2010 12:16 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
Mods should close this before we get another stupid sc1 vs sc2 debate going on >.> Agreed.
but the OP's point is worth discussing....
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I think its a point worth discussing sometime in the future when we get closer to a "balanced game". Star2 is still consantly fluctuating, and will never be a perfect game, but the thing is, BW isn't a perfect game either, so stop using BW as an absolute standard when the games are really different. Bw took 2 years to balance, we are almost 5 months into sc2, and before you say "blahblah 12 years of bw to go off of", the mechanics of sc2 are monumentally different, i think its an invalid argument. My point is, just give it time, adjustments will be made to the maps and the game and we will see it all unfold into a better state.
And seriously people, don't use join dates/post count as an excuse to invalidate someones post, thats just stupid.
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If Blizzard continue this way, no time given will help sc2. They need to decide whether they want casual game like Sims or they want competitive e-sport, because they can't obviously have both in one. If they want e-sport, they should let the community do the work, make drastic changes in map design and allow LAN. Also stop charging pc bangs in Korea and let Kespa in, because they made great job with popularizing scbw and without them they won't succeed in Korea.
+ Show Spoiler +Also cancel MBS and smart-casting
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I really hate the ideas of warpgates entirely; completely removes defender's advantage from 4 warpgates. And the problem is? Even if maps are made more macro oriented and larger, they'll STILL have 4 warpgate allins, because there's more room to hide a hidden pylon.
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On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play.
I think people that make posts like this make them because they are huge flame bait or they cannot swallow the pill that people may enjoy SC2 alongside SC1 and not like one more than the other or care "which is better." They both are awesome imo.
As for the macro mechanics...yah...blizzard is not gonna change such huge design things this deep in, so we'll just have to play it the way it is in that respect.
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On December 08 2010 01:55 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:52 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Personally...I think it's best to just accept that SC2 isn't as good as BW. Anybody who has played both knows BW is more in-depth and more action-packed. Who cares though really...people will play what they want to play. I think people that make posts like this make them because they are huge flame bait or they cannot swallow the pill that people may enjoy SC2 alongside SC1 and not like one more than the other or care "which is better." They both are awesome imo. As for the macro mechanics...yah...blizzard is not gonna change such huge design things this deep in, so we'll just have to play it the way it is in that respect.
Nah I wasn't trying to make flame-bait at all. BW simply is the better game of the two, but that doesn't mean SC2 is bad or anything. It's a pretty fun game, but I don't believe it will ever reach the level of in-depthness of BW simply of basic features of the game that Blizzard ever consider changing.
I think if people can just accept this, there will be no arguments. Anybody who argues that SC2 is a better game than BW right now...well either you didn't play BW or you don't know RTS period. Nobody can reasonably argue that a game that has been played competitively for...11 years or so...is trumped by a game that is not even a year old. Logically it makes zero sense.
Anyway, let's just all agree that SC2 can be pretty darn fun, but it's not as good as BW, and most likely will not reach the in-depth level of BW. If you played both games at some competitive level for an extended period of time, you should be able to understand this.
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EPT
