• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:36
CEST 12:36
KST 19:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage1Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research8Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2)
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage Gypsy to Korea Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group F Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [ASL21] Ro24 Group E
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Electronics
mantequilla
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2044 users

Nerfs >.<

Blogs > N3rV[Green]
Post a Reply
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
December 01 2010 23:22 GMT
#1
Turned into one hell of a rant. The bottom half is the important bit, the top shows I have actual long term experience in watching games develop from a skilled players perspective.

Having been a Brood War player for a good while now, I have come to understand some very important things about the world of starcraft.
There are many difficult things in the game, and sometimes playing PvZ facing the infinite contain of lurkers and hydras I would swear that this is impossible! Nobody can possibly beat zerg as protoss, and then Bisu would stroll up and roll some poor zerg, and not just Bisu, but many could hold their own. It's because some things are just straight up hard, and harder in certain spots for certain races. It just comes with the game.

But I learned. And through YEARS of experience I really did have a good grasp, going toe to toe with Korean C- Terrans and Protosses. I could still lose to nooby zergs though just cause "oh I mistimed this one thing 4 minutes ago and now I'm dead. cool" That could be many many things I screwed up but PvZ was hard for me. I just sorta took it as a weak spot. What I never did though, was claim that protoss was weak, or that zerg was too strong. I knew it was simply the difficulty of the game manifesting itself in hairline timing/decisions on my end and 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh on my opponents xD


I have also been a WoW player. Played WoW for WAY to long, as in from release to around 2009 with a few breaks in there. For any of you old school wow players, back in release....Warlocks were considered kind of a joke back in the day, not many in my guild so I rolled one. The thing that really got to me though was that there was so much that was possible for a warlock to do. I constantly saw people complaining about warlocks on the WoW forums saying things that I just didn't experience in my play. I would wreck face in PvP by being smart and quick (honestly I probably had more apm as a warlock in PvP than I do in sc2 now xD).

The strangest thing I found though, was through raiding. 40 man raids...god damn they were something else. Now if you WERE playing back in the day running a damage meter for a 40 man raid, you would VERY rarely see a lock up in the top 10, let alone top 5. This was due to something very different about the warlock class at release, it took actual skill and timing. Most classes had something along the lines of a dps rotation, a pattern of button pushing that doesn't really change over time, it's a constant pattern. Hunters are a great example for that. Warlocks....not so much back in the day xD We had to play by feel and timing running 5-6 dots on multiple targets finding times to shadowbolt and move when needed all while not getting aggro cause you can't drop it.

So with that said, I was one of the warlocks that topped the damage meter, in gear worse than the majority. It got so bad that there was a healer dedicated to me alone. (I liked to use hellfire in corehound packs xD....actually I just used hellfire a lot O.o) Some molten core runs I would do over 30% of the total damage in a 40 man raid start to finish hitting 1 million total before Garr.

As a warlock. In shitty gear. At release.
I was a rarity among the hordes screaming imbalance and buff us! nerf them!
But that is the world of WoW, where the skilled players are few, and have a hard time showing the solution to many problems is just getting better.
But another thing to be said about WoW, I've played pretty much any class, and the game's fucking easy. Give me a character and I will roll people, but people can't see that skill from their end, they just see themselves getting wrecked.



Ok if you're still with me that's pretty cool, I mostly wanted to get that out of the way to show that I have a shit ton of fucking experience with the worlds of starcraft and WoW.

Which brings me to this new creation of sc2.
People are treating it like WoW far to much, and it's kind of sickening. I see parallels constantly between the people with low amounts of experience getting absolutely rolled and thinking that something is just broken. Many come from WoW where recently there have been some rather broken classes. They have previous experience that the word "overpowered" is acceptable in a discussion in WoW, so why not SC2?

The major point I wish to make to those that read this is as follows.

If we want the game to grow, and progress well, people can't adopt a mindset with the words "overpowered" or "nerf". Hell we need to stop all together thinking about "change" at all in the numbers of armor, or damage, or cost, or time.

All we must do, is strive to get better. With that we will learn how to overcome things which are difficult. Was zerg overpowered when savior was unstoppable? No, just really fucking hard to stop. Is Terran imbalanced because Flash is a fucking god? Nope, still just cause he's so baller.

So all in all, this is a cry to end the "balance discussions" where people do nothing but make claims based on unit testing maps and not replays. Where people offer large long winded explanations of "how they think blizzard should change this unit so I think it would be cooler"

I just want a useful place to read about intelligent discussion on different aspects of the game. Having trouble with a specific thing? post a replay and ask questions about what you could have done better, not what the race could have done better if it was changed.



***
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
December 01 2010 23:25 GMT
#2
On December 02 2010 08:22 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Many come from WoW where recently there have been some rather broken classes.

Recently? WoW has never really had class balance since its release. WoW has always used the "flavor of the month" mentality to patching, keeping players hoping next iteration is their turn, or giving them reasons to re-roll.
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-01 23:39:50
December 01 2010 23:38 GMT
#3
I find from my WoW experience any player with the ability to get past D in iccup can be fucking pro at WoW and makes you think you're really good and its what keeps you in for longer than a few months

Perhaps High end PvP took some skill, though.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
December 01 2010 23:43 GMT
#4
On December 02 2010 08:25 moopie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 08:22 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Many come from WoW where recently there have been some rather broken classes.

Recently? WoW has never really had class balance since its release. WoW has always used the "flavor of the month" mentality to patching, keeping players hoping next iteration is their turn, or giving them reasons to re-roll.

mmorpgs are incredibly hard to balance, but WoW is pretty decent nowadays in those respects
Enervate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1769 Posts
December 02 2010 00:09 GMT
#5
The reason people are quick to claim imbalance in SC2, more than in BW, is because SC2 is so much easier. In BW, it was actually hard to play well. In SC2, everything is so much easier and it's not hard for people to macro near perfectly and multitask as well. I think all of the top players agree that SC2 depends far more on mindgames and decision-making than actual mechanics. People were limited by mechanics in BW, while in SC2, they aren't, so they complain about imbalance.

I don't support the imba complaining though and I still think SC2 is a great game, but it's undeniably easier to be good at than BW.
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
December 02 2010 00:16 GMT
#6
Some people just want to shirk responsibility. They don't want to be held responsible for their shortcomings, and thus blame it on anything else. And you know what, in some ways they're right. The nature of the game does matter, and it does factor into a player's performance, but it's far less useful to think about since really, no one has control over that. What a player has the most control over is his own improvement, skill, and performance.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
December 02 2010 00:47 GMT
#7
Personally enjoyed the read. Nice to hear about your experiences as an early Warlock. In Magic the Gathering, playing unconventional builds to a high degree of competition is called 'going rogue', it's something I really appreciate in all games.
kineSiS-
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Korea (South)1068 Posts
December 02 2010 01:38 GMT
#8
Uhm bro, at C- level there aren't hair width timings... At C- all you have to do is 1a2a to win... It's hairline timings at a B+/A- level.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #126
CranKy Ducklings92
TKL 92
IndyStarCraft 76
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech126
SortOf 108
TKL 92
IndyStarCraft 76
Codebar 43
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 6767
Horang2 4631
Calm 3164
Bisu 1423
Jaedong 1119
Aegong 509
Hyuk 438
Larva 323
Mini 245
Stork 193
[ Show more ]
actioN 187
Killer 165
EffOrt 150
sorry 83
ZerO 79
Light 77
Soulkey 67
Rush 58
HiyA 51
sSak 47
Backho 39
Sharp 33
Hm[arnc] 28
Shinee 26
zelot 25
soO 23
hero 21
Free 21
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
Noble 13
Mind 13
Terrorterran 10
[sc1f]eonzerg 3
Dota 2
XaKoH 479
XcaliburYe330
Counter-Strike
olofmeister3032
shoxiejesuss651
fl0m458
zeus432
edward57
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi799
Happy207
Pyrionflax135
crisheroes116
Mew2King71
ZerO(Twitch)13
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL12431
Other Games
gamesdonequick824
BasetradeTV407
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HappyZerGling 79
• StrangeGG 40
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt896
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
13h 25m
Replay Cast
22h 25m
Kung Fu Cup
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 13h
The PondCast
1d 23h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
BSL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
uThermal 2v2 Last Chance Qualifiers 2026
RSL Revival: Season 5
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.