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On November 25 2010 12:33 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in. You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases. The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech. It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
You're basing this off the assumption that we're talking about tvp and only tvp. My point is that DTs can be used, maybe just not as a fast tech unit, and not as an answer to terran going banshee. But as a later game harass, which i have had used against me, and it can be very annoying to deal with. Just because terran has lots of harassing units doesnt mean protoss should have the same which is what you are implying here:
" terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases.
"
Protoss is a race which is very stiff in it's tech. That the way it plays. Why you make arguements based on what terran can do is beyond me, they aren't the same race and as such shouldn't have the same tech routes/flexibilty.
And btw there is a PvP build where you do mass archons and zealots, search for "archon zealots"
I can agree with you saying fast banshee is far more usefel and safe than Dark templar. More so than i originally thought. But I think it is balanced the way it is, and works as intended.
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
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On November 25 2010 20:54 mustache wrote:
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
The fact of the matter is the only reason you think this way is because you play only terran. If you played a few dozen games as toss at high diamond level I'm sure you'd think differently
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On November 25 2010 21:44 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 20:54 mustache wrote:
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
The fact of the matter is the only reason you think this way is because you play only terran. If you played a few dozen games as toss at high diamond level I'm sure you'd think differently
+1, i feel you're really biased about this because (and correct me if im wrong) you just came in with SC2 (not that it's bad at all) but because of that you havent known the BW protoss which had the DT as a good harass and good possible opener out of many.
Honestly, I'm Plat, not going to lie or try to argue that I understand more about the game then anyone else, but my opinion is formed on watching GSL and MLG and listening to SotG and hearing all these tosses say that there's difficulty in harassing. so yea...If that little tech path went back to how it was in BW, it'd be similar to banshee, but also harder to pull off and more risky, cant fly off a DT and cant repair it. It'd make for a lot of interesting all-in plays like huge Prism DT pressure followed with traditional 4gate. It would punish people for not getting detection vs P. It would, in effect, add a new layer to the game, IMO
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Sure i probably am biased towards terran, but I don't think you're completely unbiased yourself. noone's ever gonna be completely objective. And yes I did play and follow broodwar. I followed mroe than played but still played on and off for 3-4 years.
It doesn't matter what broodwar had. Broodwar is not SC2 and cannot be compared. Just because a fast DT in BW worked doesnt mean it i will work or is even intended to work in SC2, it doesnt even mean it would be a good idea to patch it to work.
If you remember, in BW Terran didnt have a very good harassing unit like the Banshee and Toss had reavers/DTs/storm drops. in SC2 the tables turned and Terran now has the invisible early harassing unit.
What kind of harassment which worked similar to Reavers did terran have in BW? maybe a tank cliff drop which is very situational and nowhere near as devestating. Terrans did fine in BW even without a unit like that.
It worked and that was good. PvT works fine as it is atm as well and i honestly don't see the need to change it.
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On November 26 2010 00:14 mustache wrote:
Sure i probably am biased towards terran, but I don't think you're completely unbiased yourself. noone's ever gonna be completely objective.
I play random so...
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...so that doesnt guarantee you to be a completly objective player either?
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The more I play Protoss, the more it feels like I'm doing the same thing over and over and over. Even in 2v2s, it's pretty much survive the inevitable attempt to kill me 2v1, macro up, get colossi and start beating people down. Sometimes the other player goes especially heavy on roaches or marauders, so instead of collosi, carriers are more worth it.
I tried to vary my style by being more aggressive, but it seems overly risky and not worth it. Having to essentially open robo every freaking time against Terran is absolutely stupid. Dts are great late game against Zerg, since you can put pylons at various points across the map, and depending on where their army is, you can warp in dts and start cutting up their drones all over the place. Terran just scans like nothing ever happened.
The main issues are the lack of early detection, the void ray being overnerfed, and the dark shrine's cost and build time being ridiculous. There's not much point in building a dark shrine if they can counter your dts without ever scouting by the time it finishes building, or just walk over you because you've invested too much in it.
Also a cheaper twilight council would go a long way in helping diversify build orders. Considering it is necessary for zealots and stalkers to be worth anything at all, it opens up the path for high and dark templar, the upgrades for charge and blink are expensive, and it is necessary for level 2 upgrades, I think a reduced cost would be appropriate (125/50?). Especially since the cost of the templar archives and the dark shrine are huge.
I would decrease the cost of the dark shrine to 100/175 (or maybe 100/200 if the twilight council is actually made cheaper), and the build time to 60 seconds. Still expensive, still takes a while to warp in, but you don't have to sacrifice your firstborn child to get dts now.
Hallucinated observers being able to detect idea has been mentioned repeatedly. It's a good idea. Either that or move the observer to being built at the cybernetics core. Then all that is left is adjusting the void ray to reasonable middle ground between where it was and where it is now, and I think Protoss would have a lot more options without being that much stronger. It is possible the colossus would need to be adjusted after these changes, but if that means the race isn't so stupidly reliant on them, I'm for all that.
Edit: Also, stalkers scaling very poorly compared to marauders and roaches is also an issue. :> Thing is balancing the damage upgrades and an earlier blink from a cheaper twilight council might be tough.. but meh.
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On November 26 2010 00:29 mustache wrote:
...so that doesnt guarantee you to be a completly objective player either?
But obviously far less biased then someone who plays just one race.
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This problem is very well known since Beta; while it may not be imbalance, it certainly make Protoss less interesting to play.
However, any fix on this (giving Protoss an effective harassing option) will probably not come until the expansion. Other race will need some kind of defensive unit to counter it, if they can scout our new harass unit or faster DT without the shrine (or add upgrades there).
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EPT
