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First let me start off by stating this is just an opinion, not to be taken as gospel or fact. Also, this is something that I think would affect higher level play without breaking the lower levels where Protoss is already strong. Lastly, I'm putting this in blogs because I'd rather have it be a mature discussion and I don't feel like it fits in Strat section.
Now, we've all heard about sentry being imba and stalker being UP. Fact is, if you buff stalkers, the sentry becomes really really imba so you cannot touch stalkers. Right now what the protoss lacks the most is a mode of harassment, that can be accessed fairly quickly, and can then be used with a follow up. Examples are cloak banshees for T, starport is essential and Mutalisk harass for Z, which can then be used for just owning or switching late game to Broods.
So here it is, my opinion, I think that what makes the Protoss race so difficult to play at higher levels, is the Dark Shrine. Because of the Dark Shrine we have a building that offers no upgrades, is extremely costly and will only get us DTs which once revealed, are essentially useless. If the Dark Shrine were removed, the Protoss would have an extremely effective way of harassment with a good follow up to it! essentially not getting a really expensive paper weight in your main. Imagine the Protoss having a cloak banshee opening? with a viable follow up? and not a building rendered useless by a few turrets?
you can switch the starport addons, mutas are useful at everything, DTs are very strong, but very fragile. I think if the Dark Shrine were removed in favour of just the Templar Archives, it would give a slew of new openings and mid game transitions for P. for example, getting Templar tech in mid game and also dropping a few DTs in a new expo.
maybe a Phoenix/DT opening, or a Warp Prism DT opening followed by Speed Prism with Templars with storm? this would allow the Protoss to be a race that can harass. As of now, all we can do for harass are void rays with speed, blink stalkers and phoenixes. All of which can be countered quite effectively.
So there it was, my opinion, Discuss and please do be polite about it
 
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I feel that the race could be fixed if the observer was made from the Nexus, AFTER a tech path (stargate, robo, citadel) is chosen.
That's my opinion.
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having dark templar tech and high templar tech unlocked at the same time would be kind of overpowered pvt. Templar Tech is already super powerful; to give protoss an automatic transition and contain without the extra cost and risk of a shrine is too strong.
Protoss early game should be buffed, not late game, imo.
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give DTs throwing lightsaber and everything will be just OK. Blink + throwing lightsaber = epic DTs !
i cant even imagine how much fun can be done with this ^^
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This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
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A lot of players feel that stalkers are a bit underpowered. They move quickly, sure, but other than that aren't all that special.
Sentries, when employed and used well, can often single handedly win games. I've won games because of great force fields or a key guardian shield, and have also lost games because of one missed force field.
So the issue is that changing one unit changes the relationship between that unit and all others.
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On November 24 2010 21:37 Zergneedsfood wrote:
This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
Stalkers do not scale well with upgrades (possibly the worst unit in the game as far as this goes) and only see use past the midgame if the Zerg is going Brood Lords. Whereas you can use Marauders or Roaches throughout the game and be completely fine.
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I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path...
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If I go fast banshee with cloak I literally have no army except for a handful of marines...if you go DT rush you don't have much of an army either. Sounds balanced to me 
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On November 24 2010 23:11 Pull wrote:If I go fast banshee with cloak I literally have no army except for a handful of marines...if you go DT rush you don't have much of an army either. Sounds balanced to me
Yeah, except a cloaked banshee is a DT that can fly and has like 7 range and can be repaired.
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a little archon buff would actually be really nice. never thought about that.
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How about blink for DTs like in the single player? *evil grin*
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On November 24 2010 21:15 gods_basement wrote:
having dark templar tech and high templar tech unlocked at the same time would be kind of overpowered pvt. Templar Tech is already super powerful; to give protoss an automatic transition and contain without the extra cost and risk of a shrine is too strong.
Protoss early game should be buffed, not late game, imo.
wrong, thats how it was in BW and it did not break the game at all, also since every. single. terran. has an OC at the 3 minute mark at least and most of the time en E-bay really quickly because bio is the most used strat, a DT strat is very unlikely to outright KILL off a terran. It can be exactly like cloak banshee, if you're not prepared you die.
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On November 24 2010 21:37 Zergneedsfood wrote:
This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
I don't know about that. I mean, Templar tech takes INSANELY long to get to anyway most of the time, considering you have to go robo first usually to be safe unless you have a personalized build order. Not to mention, it would be more coherent with the previous games. Also, T has more detection than any other team in the game, and right now, P really DOESN'T have a viable harass option early on (not that DT is exactly early as it is xD ).
If you implemented this change I'm sure you'd see a deluge of DT openings at first, but I don't it'd really be game breaking in anyway in the long term. The idea of DT tech being unlocked with the archive didn't break BW, and that was with much stronger zealots and dragoons to boot.
As it were, I think the game is pretty close to balanced at this point as it is, and I'd prefer Blizzard to wait a bit longer between patches than they have been anyway.
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I tend to think that the issue with protoss is that we're relatively limited to what we can do opposed to the other two races.
Similar to having no easy access to harass -- I think it lies in the gateway unit composition mostly. Most early game protoss play revolves around having that key forcefield, guardian shield where as I don't really think you could do much else to prevent an early loss. I find that kind of frustrating. Protoss seems very limited, so I would say that Protoss needs a better time having an opening rather than having to expect an initial push that would keep us in our base.
Put variety back in Protoss!
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aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
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On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2
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While removing the dark shrine altogether is a bit too much I feel, I would definitely support reducing cost and/or build time of the dark shrine.
DTs are quite strong already, even more so than in BW because detection is much harder to come by now.
PvT - ok so all terrans are going to have OC every game with easy access to scan - but having MULEs greatly limits that scanning capability. Turrets are also more expensive and much less prevalent.
PvZ - overlords no longer detect, that's huge
PvP - robo is usually constantly making colossus, meaning less obs flying around. obs is also more expensive. Blink stalker and phoenix make sniping obs much easier.
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On November 25 2010 01:56 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2
true but if you look at the distribution of the cost the cloack upgrade is the equivalent of the dark shrine. a deadend tech. you cant use cloak for anything but the banshees either.
The tech advantage is in the terrans favour, but not greatly. stalkers will be available at this point while marauders still need the techlab and creating techlabs and reactors cost gas as well
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On November 25 2010 02:08 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:56 PlaGuE_R wrote:On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2 true but if you look at the distribution of the cost the cloack upgrade is the equivalent of the dark shrine. a deadend tech. you cant use cloak for anything but the banshees either. The tech advantage is in the terrans favour, but not greatly. stalkers will be available at this point while marauders still need the techlab and creating techlabs and reactors cost gas as well
marauders rape stalkers cost effectively, banshees can be repaired and dont even need cloak to effective harass units just watch qxc. How many times do you see DTs in MLG or GSL and its NOT an all in?
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EPT
