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I agree about the dark shrine, it's completely stupid.
I don't really understand how it could be a bad thing for other races. For once they would have to react to what the Protoss were doing rather than the Protoss always being reactive (If they're playing a straight up game, no warpgate all in) When I play ladder I always feel as though I have to react, especially vs Terrans.I have to go robo and I have to get an obs then I have to wait to see what he's going before I can even think about what I'm going to try and do. Zerg will already have a lair ready so they can just morph an overseer and be fine. But this would also force the terran to waste a mule and use a scan to see if he needs to prepare for it. Rather than losing that one out of 20 games vs Protoss and brushing it off because they rarely get DT rushed.
Sure if they did remove the dark shrine then obviously you'd start seeing a lot of DT openings, but within a week or two Terrans will learn how to fully adapt and be prepared for it. Then it'll revert back to standard play that we know now, but it will always be an option. An option that won't set you back so insanely much that you can't catch up.
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In my opinion, keeping dt tech separate from ht would be ok if Blizzard brought back the dark archon. Maelstrom would be pretty effective against terran bio army. They should also remove mind control and put in a different spell.
But combining ht and dt tech would not be overpowered. A terran starport opening with cloaked banshees and raven would be very good against it. They would probably need to increase the build time for the templar archives though.
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I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable.
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United States10774 Posts
Agreed. I am not sure what the solution would be but the Dark Shrine is a huge joke.
EDIT: Not to mention it would make PvP more interesting as well.
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God the terran players are hopeless -.-
I think the stalker scaling issue is a bigger deal. Toss is just not going to be able to harass very well in this game. We need to just accept that. The bigger deal is having a meaty enough unit to protect your special tech flavor.
I think a cute idea would be to go with a 75 gas sentry. Sentries die out mid to lategame because you need the gas. In the early game, they dont really pack much of a punch and have energy for 1-2 FFs. Besides we're already spending a ton of gas on our only damage dealing gateway unit. I don't think it would dramatically augment any 4 gate, so that objection should be ruled out. Meh silly theorycrafting.
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I'm glad people are actually seriously thinking about this possibility. I've seen a lot of Protoss theory crafting which is mostly bad, but i honestly put a lot of thought into it and also thought of how it would affect high level play (good harass) and low level play (DT rushes but that happens anyways vs bad players)
I criticized every toss unit, every terran unit and every zerg unit. And honestly, I cannot really say that anything besides Dark Shrine and maybe Prism hp buff would be acceptable as changes. Other changes would make one race OP and another UP. Of course i want marauders not to have stim xD but thats just hatred talking lol
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While I think that the Dark shrine should be merged with the templar archives, there are far different reasons that protoss is weak at its current state, and it can't solely be blamed with the DT.
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On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path...
That is something to think about.
I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold.
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My main concerns with protoss are these three (I do not ask for all three to change) :
- DT tech is a big investment for no guaranteed harassment, Protoss need either a better flying harassment unit or easier DTs (make TA longer to build but it unlocks DT).
- Stalkers are too expensive compared to their strength. 125/50 looks bad for this unit imo. Around 100/25 would be more on par with marauder and roach strengths (or slightly better stats).
- Detection that requires a costly production building. Make observer easier to get or not that much of an investment. Right now it forces you to always get a robo aginst T or P (unless you 4Gate all-in). This screw up even more the templar tech.
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On November 25 2010 05:46 rezoacken wrote:
My main concerns with protoss are these three (I do not ask for all three to change) :
- DT tech is a big investment for no guaranteed harassment, Protoss need either a better flying harassment unit or easier DTs (make TA longer to build but it unlocks DT).
- Stalkers are too expensive compared to their strength. 125/50 looks bad for this unit imo. Around 100/25 would be more on par with marauder and roach strengths (or slightly better stats).
- Detection that requires a costly production building. Make observer easier to get or not that much of an investment. Right now it forces you to always get a robo aginst T or P (unless you 4Gate all-in). This screw up even more the templar tech.
third point. NO, NO and NO! T has scan, but they need to get a starport, tech lab and pay a huge amount of gas for a raven for mobile detection, Zerg needs to get lair and then pay for an overseer. There is no justification for P to have easier detection, especially since we have the best detector cuz its CLOAKED. so NO, stop going on about the observer. In BW you needed a separate STRUCTURE to the ROBO to GET observers.
TLDR: FORGET ABOUT MAKING OBS EASIER TO GET!
also, lowering stalker cost would make 4 gate ridiculously strong! can you imagine? it would be impossible to beat. so no to that as well.
While I think that the Dark shrine should be merged with the templar archives, there are far different reasons that protoss is weak at its current state, and it can't solely be blamed with the DT.
I'm not blaming it entirely on DT, i never ever said that, either in the OP or in any of my subsequent responses. No, what I am saying is that removing dark shrine is a sure fire way of giving P a good harassment possibility that has a good FOLLOW UP. like i said, after the DT shock wears off, storm drops and storm warp ins become incredibly easy to get and can put a lot of pressure on T or Z economically. Something that even Ravens can do by dropping few turrets in an expo's mineral line
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On November 25 2010 03:51 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable.
You're assuming the terran always goes banshee. they don't, i merely wanted to compare the 2 builds in absolute terms to see the actual investment time and mineral/gas wise.
A raven costs 200 gas and is a HEAVY investment that will delay your stim, which is really needed, and marauder production. this also means that you need an addon on the barracks since you cant switch them. this costs time, and gas. A terran cannot sustain a huge marauder production if they go starport. especially not if they want an early stim as well. keep in mind that terran doesnt have the luxury of putting alot of workers on gas early like toss can with chronoboost.
We have mules but they aren't as extreme as so many people think. the OC costs 150 and you lose the build time of 2 workers. the mule gets you 250 minerals so the first one isn't a large bonus. the second mule is usually used to scan. Toss on the otherhand has chronoboost and can make workers almost twice as fast while also not having to waste a worker to build things.
This being said i dont believe the DT is as effective as the Banshee nor as safe a build as the banshee, and I don't think it should be, every race plays differently and saying "terran has a banshee, the DT should be the same" is stupid and tehn you might as well go play AOE. But the Banshee itself is not extremely safe as it will get crushed by any early toss push. Just like fast DTs will get crushed by an early terran push.
I believe it works as intended and changing it would not make sense.
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On November 25 2010 07:06 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:51 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable. You're assuming the terran always goes banshee. they don't, i merely wanted to compare the 2 builds in absolute terms to see the actual investment time and mineral/gas wise. A raven costs 200 gas and is a HEAVY investment that will delay your stim, which is really needed, and marauder production. this also means that you need an addon on the barracks since you cant switch them. this costs time, and gas. A terran cannot sustain a huge marauder production if they go starport. especially not if they want an early stim as well. keep in mind that terran doesnt have the luxury of putting alot of workers on gas early like toss can with chronoboost. We have mules but they aren't as extreme as so many people think. the OC costs 150 and you lose the build time of 2 workers. the mule gets you 250 minerals so the first one isn't a large bonus. the second mule is usually used to scan. Toss on the otherhand has chronoboost and can make workers almost twice as fast while also not having to waste a worker to build things. This being said i dont believe the DT is as effective as the Banshee nor as safe a build as the banshee, and I don't think it should be, every race plays differently and saying "terran has a banshee, the DT should be the same" is stupid and tehn you might as well go play AOE. But the Banshee itself is not extremely safe as it will get crushed by any early toss push. Just like fast DTs will get crushed by an early terran push. I believe it works as intended and changing it would not make sense.
you being intentionally dense? No one is saying that DT should be like the banshee, but that it should be a viable option! and how can you think that you need a raven to save yourself from DT early game? have you even played TvT? do you crank out a raven the second you see banshees? no. and you're not likely to, until you push out at least. So i don't know where you're pulling out this 'i need a raven herp derp' stuff, cuz you dont. you need a scan, or an ebay + turret, and u get the ebay anyways since you're going bio. So where's the problem? it was obviously not a problem in BW, how can it be a problem in SC2 where terran has way easier access to detection?
do you need an academy? do you need a science facility? no, yet somehow for 12 years it's worked for T who had it worse in terms of detection. If you're so bad at scouting that you cant see the build and then lose because you don't have scan then that is your fault, not the build's fault
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I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in.
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you're constantly saying the same things over and over, thats not a discussion buddy, that's just you repeating yourself. Thing is, you shouldnt compare DT to banshee, you should compare banshee to DT simply because the DT's been around 12 years. It's a staple unit, whereas the banshee is a unit that gives Terran yet another amazing worker harass option along with medivac drops, blue flame hellions, and Ravens with PDD and 2-3 turrets.
name one good harass option that toss can go that doesnt leave them crippled if it fails entirely? blink. but you need a 150/100 building, a 150/150 research and a 200/100 building just to even think of pulling it off. not to mention that you need at least 6 or more Stalkers to do any damage and you need one observer.
so 125/50 x6 = 750/300 + 200/100 + 50/100 + 150/100 + 150/150 = 1300/750
phoenix is also an option, altho a fairly meager one as you need minimum 4 so : 600/400 + 150/150 = 750/550
now let's think of banshee: 150 + 150/100 + 150/100 + 200/200 + 150/100 as a single banshee is enough cripple an econ + 50/25 = 800/525
you wanna talk numbers? here they are.
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On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in.
You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases.
The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech.
It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
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It's an issue with Blizzard's balancing and the game itself. There is no single flaw in how the game mechanics work. It's the entire thing. Nothing really flows together well at this point. Only time will tell if it will work out, either from balance patches or innovation. Else it will fall short of Brood War. Until then, I doubt people have exhausted every possible option on everything there is to do, so play to improve rather than try to get an easier game.
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On November 25 2010 12:33 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in. You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases. The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech. It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
Exactly, teching to banshee is standard and doesnt hurt a terran econ, and with 1 banshee out on the field a Terran can keep a protoss in his base for a long time with good control while he expands. So I don't understand what your problem is.
You talk about how the raven is TERRIBLE for a 1 base Terran's economy yet you fail to ignore the fact that theres a 1 base 5 marines, 1 tank, 1 raven timing push build that works.
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My question is:
Whose fucking bright idea is it to rename dragoon to stalkers?
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Blizzard knows that everyone sane wants the dark shrine removed, but blizzards first priority has always been to nerf protoss as much as possible, so I doubt they care.
On November 25 2010 05:11 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path... That is something to think about. I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold.
A good solution to this is to dramatically increase the stalkers stats with each forge upgrade. That way you cant really get strong stalkers pounding your opponents face too early
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On November 25 2010 20:36 TheAntZ wrote:Blizzard knows that everyone sane wants the dark shrine removed, but blizzards first priority has always been to nerf protoss as much as possible, so I doubt they care. Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:11 Froadac wrote:On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path... That is something to think about. I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold. A good solution to this is to dramatically increase the stalkers stats with each forge upgrade. That way you cant really get strong stalkers pounding your opponents face too early
thats actually really true, buffing the stalker's scaling with ups would really help protoss without breaking early game by making 4 gate way op. just have a regular +1 then +2 and +3 making stalkers scale a lot more
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EPT
