|
First let me start off by stating this is just an opinion, not to be taken as gospel or fact. Also, this is something that I think would affect higher level play without breaking the lower levels where Protoss is already strong. Lastly, I'm putting this in blogs because I'd rather have it be a mature discussion and I don't feel like it fits in Strat section.
Now, we've all heard about sentry being imba and stalker being UP. Fact is, if you buff stalkers, the sentry becomes really really imba so you cannot touch stalkers. Right now what the protoss lacks the most is a mode of harassment, that can be accessed fairly quickly, and can then be used with a follow up. Examples are cloak banshees for T, starport is essential and Mutalisk harass for Z, which can then be used for just owning or switching late game to Broods.
So here it is, my opinion, I think that what makes the Protoss race so difficult to play at higher levels, is the Dark Shrine. Because of the Dark Shrine we have a building that offers no upgrades, is extremely costly and will only get us DTs which once revealed, are essentially useless. If the Dark Shrine were removed, the Protoss would have an extremely effective way of harassment with a good follow up to it! essentially not getting a really expensive paper weight in your main. Imagine the Protoss having a cloak banshee opening? with a viable follow up? and not a building rendered useless by a few turrets?
you can switch the starport addons, mutas are useful at everything, DTs are very strong, but very fragile. I think if the Dark Shrine were removed in favour of just the Templar Archives, it would give a slew of new openings and mid game transitions for P. for example, getting Templar tech in mid game and also dropping a few DTs in a new expo.
maybe a Phoenix/DT opening, or a Warp Prism DT opening followed by Speed Prism with Templars with storm? this would allow the Protoss to be a race that can harass. As of now, all we can do for harass are void rays with speed, blink stalkers and phoenixes. All of which can be countered quite effectively.
So there it was, my opinion, Discuss and please do be polite about it
 
|
I feel that the race could be fixed if the observer was made from the Nexus, AFTER a tech path (stargate, robo, citadel) is chosen.
That's my opinion.
|
having dark templar tech and high templar tech unlocked at the same time would be kind of overpowered pvt. Templar Tech is already super powerful; to give protoss an automatic transition and contain without the extra cost and risk of a shrine is too strong.
Protoss early game should be buffed, not late game, imo.
|
give DTs throwing lightsaber and everything will be just OK. Blink + throwing lightsaber = epic DTs !
i cant even imagine how much fun can be done with this ^^
|
This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
|
A lot of players feel that stalkers are a bit underpowered. They move quickly, sure, but other than that aren't all that special.
Sentries, when employed and used well, can often single handedly win games. I've won games because of great force fields or a key guardian shield, and have also lost games because of one missed force field.
So the issue is that changing one unit changes the relationship between that unit and all others.
|
On November 24 2010 21:37 Zergneedsfood wrote:
This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
Stalkers do not scale well with upgrades (possibly the worst unit in the game as far as this goes) and only see use past the midgame if the Zerg is going Brood Lords. Whereas you can use Marauders or Roaches throughout the game and be completely fine.
|
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path...
|
If I go fast banshee with cloak I literally have no army except for a handful of marines...if you go DT rush you don't have much of an army either. Sounds balanced to me 
|
On November 24 2010 23:11 Pull wrote:If I go fast banshee with cloak I literally have no army except for a handful of marines...if you go DT rush you don't have much of an army either. Sounds balanced to me
Yeah, except a cloaked banshee is a DT that can fly and has like 7 range and can be repaired.
|
a little archon buff would actually be really nice. never thought about that.
|
How about blink for DTs like in the single player? *evil grin*
|
On November 24 2010 21:15 gods_basement wrote:
having dark templar tech and high templar tech unlocked at the same time would be kind of overpowered pvt. Templar Tech is already super powerful; to give protoss an automatic transition and contain without the extra cost and risk of a shrine is too strong.
Protoss early game should be buffed, not late game, imo.
wrong, thats how it was in BW and it did not break the game at all, also since every. single. terran. has an OC at the 3 minute mark at least and most of the time en E-bay really quickly because bio is the most used strat, a DT strat is very unlikely to outright KILL off a terran. It can be exactly like cloak banshee, if you're not prepared you die.
|
On November 24 2010 21:37 Zergneedsfood wrote:
This would just convince everybody to just open DT every game because it's so easy. Considering how warpgate gives Protoss so much more early pressure ability, it would be a lot deadlier...and easier to kill a Terran from before.
Protoss already has ability to do damage. I don't think this is a big issue to touch on.
By the way, where did you hear that Sentries and Stalkers are underpowered?
I don't know about that. I mean, Templar tech takes INSANELY long to get to anyway most of the time, considering you have to go robo first usually to be safe unless you have a personalized build order. Not to mention, it would be more coherent with the previous games. Also, T has more detection than any other team in the game, and right now, P really DOESN'T have a viable harass option early on (not that DT is exactly early as it is xD ).
If you implemented this change I'm sure you'd see a deluge of DT openings at first, but I don't it'd really be game breaking in anyway in the long term. The idea of DT tech being unlocked with the archive didn't break BW, and that was with much stronger zealots and dragoons to boot.
As it were, I think the game is pretty close to balanced at this point as it is, and I'd prefer Blizzard to wait a bit longer between patches than they have been anyway.
|
I tend to think that the issue with protoss is that we're relatively limited to what we can do opposed to the other two races.
Similar to having no easy access to harass -- I think it lies in the gateway unit composition mostly. Most early game protoss play revolves around having that key forcefield, guardian shield where as I don't really think you could do much else to prevent an early loss. I find that kind of frustrating. Protoss seems very limited, so I would say that Protoss needs a better time having an opening rather than having to expect an initial push that would keep us in our base.
Put variety back in Protoss!
|
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
|
On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2
|
While removing the dark shrine altogether is a bit too much I feel, I would definitely support reducing cost and/or build time of the dark shrine.
DTs are quite strong already, even more so than in BW because detection is much harder to come by now.
PvT - ok so all terrans are going to have OC every game with easy access to scan - but having MULEs greatly limits that scanning capability. Turrets are also more expensive and much less prevalent.
PvZ - overlords no longer detect, that's huge
PvP - robo is usually constantly making colossus, meaning less obs flying around. obs is also more expensive. Blink stalker and phoenix make sniping obs much easier.
|
On November 25 2010 01:56 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2
true but if you look at the distribution of the cost the cloack upgrade is the equivalent of the dark shrine. a deadend tech. you cant use cloak for anything but the banshees either.
The tech advantage is in the terrans favour, but not greatly. stalkers will be available at this point while marauders still need the techlab and creating techlabs and reactors cost gas as well
|
On November 25 2010 02:08 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:56 PlaGuE_R wrote:On November 25 2010 01:42 mustache wrote:
aware me on what the large disadvantage of the DT tech tree is compared to Banshees?
gateway 150 barracks 150 P0/0 T0/0 65/60s
core 150 factory 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/60s
council 150/100 starport 150/100 P0/0 T0/+100 50/50s
- techlab 50/50 P0/0 T+50/+150 -----------
Dark shrine 100/250 Cloak 200/200 P0/0 T+150/+100 100/120s
DT 125/125 Banshee 150/100 P0/0 T +175/+75 55/60s
Lots of text = T spends 175/75 more than toss and needs 30s more (hope my math is right)
As you can see the Protoss spends less money on the harass, and then come out at around the same time(toss earlier but you can research cloack and banshee at the same time)
You almost have enough to go robotech afterwards. which would put you ahead in tech imo.
Now you jsut have to ask yourself if a DT is worth that slightly lower cost. vs terran probably no, because of wall offs and scans, vs Zerg it's more viable.
To make a long story short DTs aren't as useful as Banshees but also not as expensive
And the turret arguement doesnt count here, that'll cost you an extra 100+125 for just 1 turret whereas as cannon will cost you 150+150 for 1 cannon (but you have more minerals) which can scare off banshees very nicely as well.
I dont believe DTs should be changed
except when youre done with banshees well you dont have a building thats completely pointless. Once DT is done harassing, i can not use it viably! because there is no follow up. Banshee you can switch addons and VOILA insta viking/medivac x2 true but if you look at the distribution of the cost the cloack upgrade is the equivalent of the dark shrine. a deadend tech. you cant use cloak for anything but the banshees either. The tech advantage is in the terrans favour, but not greatly. stalkers will be available at this point while marauders still need the techlab and creating techlabs and reactors cost gas as well
marauders rape stalkers cost effectively, banshees can be repaired and dont even need cloak to effective harass units just watch qxc. How many times do you see DTs in MLG or GSL and its NOT an all in?
|
I agree about the dark shrine, it's completely stupid.
I don't really understand how it could be a bad thing for other races. For once they would have to react to what the Protoss were doing rather than the Protoss always being reactive (If they're playing a straight up game, no warpgate all in) When I play ladder I always feel as though I have to react, especially vs Terrans.I have to go robo and I have to get an obs then I have to wait to see what he's going before I can even think about what I'm going to try and do. Zerg will already have a lair ready so they can just morph an overseer and be fine. But this would also force the terran to waste a mule and use a scan to see if he needs to prepare for it. Rather than losing that one out of 20 games vs Protoss and brushing it off because they rarely get DT rushed.
Sure if they did remove the dark shrine then obviously you'd start seeing a lot of DT openings, but within a week or two Terrans will learn how to fully adapt and be prepared for it. Then it'll revert back to standard play that we know now, but it will always be an option. An option that won't set you back so insanely much that you can't catch up.
|
In my opinion, keeping dt tech separate from ht would be ok if Blizzard brought back the dark archon. Maelstrom would be pretty effective against terran bio army. They should also remove mind control and put in a different spell.
But combining ht and dt tech would not be overpowered. A terran starport opening with cloaked banshees and raven would be very good against it. They would probably need to increase the build time for the templar archives though.
|
I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable.
|
United States10774 Posts
Agreed. I am not sure what the solution would be but the Dark Shrine is a huge joke.
EDIT: Not to mention it would make PvP more interesting as well.
|
God the terran players are hopeless -.-
I think the stalker scaling issue is a bigger deal. Toss is just not going to be able to harass very well in this game. We need to just accept that. The bigger deal is having a meaty enough unit to protect your special tech flavor.
I think a cute idea would be to go with a 75 gas sentry. Sentries die out mid to lategame because you need the gas. In the early game, they dont really pack much of a punch and have energy for 1-2 FFs. Besides we're already spending a ton of gas on our only damage dealing gateway unit. I don't think it would dramatically augment any 4 gate, so that objection should be ruled out. Meh silly theorycrafting.
|
I'm glad people are actually seriously thinking about this possibility. I've seen a lot of Protoss theory crafting which is mostly bad, but i honestly put a lot of thought into it and also thought of how it would affect high level play (good harass) and low level play (DT rushes but that happens anyways vs bad players)
I criticized every toss unit, every terran unit and every zerg unit. And honestly, I cannot really say that anything besides Dark Shrine and maybe Prism hp buff would be acceptable as changes. Other changes would make one race OP and another UP. Of course i want marauders not to have stim xD but thats just hatred talking lol
|
While I think that the Dark shrine should be merged with the templar archives, there are far different reasons that protoss is weak at its current state, and it can't solely be blamed with the DT.
|
On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path...
That is something to think about.
I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold.
|
My main concerns with protoss are these three (I do not ask for all three to change) :
- DT tech is a big investment for no guaranteed harassment, Protoss need either a better flying harassment unit or easier DTs (make TA longer to build but it unlocks DT).
- Stalkers are too expensive compared to their strength. 125/50 looks bad for this unit imo. Around 100/25 would be more on par with marauder and roach strengths (or slightly better stats).
- Detection that requires a costly production building. Make observer easier to get or not that much of an investment. Right now it forces you to always get a robo aginst T or P (unless you 4Gate all-in). This screw up even more the templar tech.
|
On November 25 2010 05:46 rezoacken wrote:
My main concerns with protoss are these three (I do not ask for all three to change) :
- DT tech is a big investment for no guaranteed harassment, Protoss need either a better flying harassment unit or easier DTs (make TA longer to build but it unlocks DT).
- Stalkers are too expensive compared to their strength. 125/50 looks bad for this unit imo. Around 100/25 would be more on par with marauder and roach strengths (or slightly better stats).
- Detection that requires a costly production building. Make observer easier to get or not that much of an investment. Right now it forces you to always get a robo aginst T or P (unless you 4Gate all-in). This screw up even more the templar tech.
third point. NO, NO and NO! T has scan, but they need to get a starport, tech lab and pay a huge amount of gas for a raven for mobile detection, Zerg needs to get lair and then pay for an overseer. There is no justification for P to have easier detection, especially since we have the best detector cuz its CLOAKED. so NO, stop going on about the observer. In BW you needed a separate STRUCTURE to the ROBO to GET observers.
TLDR: FORGET ABOUT MAKING OBS EASIER TO GET!
also, lowering stalker cost would make 4 gate ridiculously strong! can you imagine? it would be impossible to beat. so no to that as well.
While I think that the Dark shrine should be merged with the templar archives, there are far different reasons that protoss is weak at its current state, and it can't solely be blamed with the DT.
I'm not blaming it entirely on DT, i never ever said that, either in the OP or in any of my subsequent responses. No, what I am saying is that removing dark shrine is a sure fire way of giving P a good harassment possibility that has a good FOLLOW UP. like i said, after the DT shock wears off, storm drops and storm warp ins become incredibly easy to get and can put a lot of pressure on T or Z economically. Something that even Ravens can do by dropping few turrets in an expo's mineral line
|
On November 25 2010 03:51 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable.
You're assuming the terran always goes banshee. they don't, i merely wanted to compare the 2 builds in absolute terms to see the actual investment time and mineral/gas wise.
A raven costs 200 gas and is a HEAVY investment that will delay your stim, which is really needed, and marauder production. this also means that you need an addon on the barracks since you cant switch them. this costs time, and gas. A terran cannot sustain a huge marauder production if they go starport. especially not if they want an early stim as well. keep in mind that terran doesnt have the luxury of putting alot of workers on gas early like toss can with chronoboost.
We have mules but they aren't as extreme as so many people think. the OC costs 150 and you lose the build time of 2 workers. the mule gets you 250 minerals so the first one isn't a large bonus. the second mule is usually used to scan. Toss on the otherhand has chronoboost and can make workers almost twice as fast while also not having to waste a worker to build things.
This being said i dont believe the DT is as effective as the Banshee nor as safe a build as the banshee, and I don't think it should be, every race plays differently and saying "terran has a banshee, the DT should be the same" is stupid and tehn you might as well go play AOE. But the Banshee itself is not extremely safe as it will get crushed by any early toss push. Just like fast DTs will get crushed by an early terran push.
I believe it works as intended and changing it would not make sense.
|
On November 25 2010 07:06 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:51 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm sorry but terran players doing math in this thread are hilarious.
You can repair, switch addons which cost like 25 gas at your tier 1 building and unlocks almost every tech and upgrade. How you can actually sit there and type it and act like it somehow justifies how long it takes for a P to get dts is downright hilarious.
Even if it was equal, or near equal how do you expect a P to fight your ground army. Even after cloaked banshees the T is very capable of having a handful of marine/marauder off of one base. Marine/maruader in small numbers decimate gateway units. Oh btw you can use your starport for raven which again counters stalkers which you already beat with marauder, and you can get vikings which are good against the inevitable collosus. Did I mention you already have stim and conc shell while P can't possibly have the gas to start a blink/charge upgrade without massively cutting units.
Not saying it's imba, but your thought process is wrong. Should spend more time playing PvT [ as a P ] if you don't understand why the dark shrine is laughable. You're assuming the terran always goes banshee. they don't, i merely wanted to compare the 2 builds in absolute terms to see the actual investment time and mineral/gas wise. A raven costs 200 gas and is a HEAVY investment that will delay your stim, which is really needed, and marauder production. this also means that you need an addon on the barracks since you cant switch them. this costs time, and gas. A terran cannot sustain a huge marauder production if they go starport. especially not if they want an early stim as well. keep in mind that terran doesnt have the luxury of putting alot of workers on gas early like toss can with chronoboost. We have mules but they aren't as extreme as so many people think. the OC costs 150 and you lose the build time of 2 workers. the mule gets you 250 minerals so the first one isn't a large bonus. the second mule is usually used to scan. Toss on the otherhand has chronoboost and can make workers almost twice as fast while also not having to waste a worker to build things. This being said i dont believe the DT is as effective as the Banshee nor as safe a build as the banshee, and I don't think it should be, every race plays differently and saying "terran has a banshee, the DT should be the same" is stupid and tehn you might as well go play AOE. But the Banshee itself is not extremely safe as it will get crushed by any early toss push. Just like fast DTs will get crushed by an early terran push. I believe it works as intended and changing it would not make sense.
you being intentionally dense? No one is saying that DT should be like the banshee, but that it should be a viable option! and how can you think that you need a raven to save yourself from DT early game? have you even played TvT? do you crank out a raven the second you see banshees? no. and you're not likely to, until you push out at least. So i don't know where you're pulling out this 'i need a raven herp derp' stuff, cuz you dont. you need a scan, or an ebay + turret, and u get the ebay anyways since you're going bio. So where's the problem? it was obviously not a problem in BW, how can it be a problem in SC2 where terran has way easier access to detection?
do you need an academy? do you need a science facility? no, yet somehow for 12 years it's worked for T who had it worse in terms of detection. If you're so bad at scouting that you cant see the build and then lose because you don't have scan then that is your fault, not the build's fault
|
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in.
|
you're constantly saying the same things over and over, thats not a discussion buddy, that's just you repeating yourself. Thing is, you shouldnt compare DT to banshee, you should compare banshee to DT simply because the DT's been around 12 years. It's a staple unit, whereas the banshee is a unit that gives Terran yet another amazing worker harass option along with medivac drops, blue flame hellions, and Ravens with PDD and 2-3 turrets.
name one good harass option that toss can go that doesnt leave them crippled if it fails entirely? blink. but you need a 150/100 building, a 150/150 research and a 200/100 building just to even think of pulling it off. not to mention that you need at least 6 or more Stalkers to do any damage and you need one observer.
so 125/50 x6 = 750/300 + 200/100 + 50/100 + 150/100 + 150/150 = 1300/750
phoenix is also an option, altho a fairly meager one as you need minimum 4 so : 600/400 + 150/150 = 750/550
now let's think of banshee: 150 + 150/100 + 150/100 + 200/200 + 150/100 as a single banshee is enough cripple an econ + 50/25 = 800/525
you wanna talk numbers? here they are.
|
On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in.
You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases.
The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech.
It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
|
It's an issue with Blizzard's balancing and the game itself. There is no single flaw in how the game mechanics work. It's the entire thing. Nothing really flows together well at this point. Only time will tell if it will work out, either from balance patches or innovation. Else it will fall short of Brood War. Until then, I doubt people have exhausted every possible option on everything there is to do, so play to improve rather than try to get an easier game.
|
On November 25 2010 12:33 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in. You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases. The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech. It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
Exactly, teching to banshee is standard and doesnt hurt a terran econ, and with 1 banshee out on the field a Terran can keep a protoss in his base for a long time with good control while he expands. So I don't understand what your problem is.
You talk about how the raven is TERRIBLE for a 1 base Terran's economy yet you fail to ignore the fact that theres a 1 base 5 marines, 1 tank, 1 raven timing push build that works.
|
My question is:
Whose fucking bright idea is it to rename dragoon to stalkers?
|
Blizzard knows that everyone sane wants the dark shrine removed, but blizzards first priority has always been to nerf protoss as much as possible, so I doubt they care.
On November 25 2010 05:11 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path... That is something to think about. I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold.
A good solution to this is to dramatically increase the stalkers stats with each forge upgrade. That way you cant really get strong stalkers pounding your opponents face too early
|
On November 25 2010 20:36 TheAntZ wrote:Blizzard knows that everyone sane wants the dark shrine removed, but blizzards first priority has always been to nerf protoss as much as possible, so I doubt they care. Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:11 Froadac wrote:On November 24 2010 23:08 ReketSomething wrote:
I have another idea, how about we make the archon a lot stronger? If the archon was REALLY strong then having the dark templar tech path wouldnt be a waste. I mean, 2 dts = 1 archon which costs 125/100? x2 means that an archon should be about as strong as a THOR/ULTRALISK.
If archons were as strong as THORS/ULTRALISKS then you can actually go the templar tech path... That is something to think about. I think the main limiting factor about buffing stalkers is the fact that four gate is so strong. Buff stalkers, and four gate is even harder to hold. A good solution to this is to dramatically increase the stalkers stats with each forge upgrade. That way you cant really get strong stalkers pounding your opponents face too early
thats actually really true, buffing the stalker's scaling with ups would really help protoss without breaking early game by making 4 gate way op. just have a regular +1 then +2 and +3 making stalkers scale a lot more
|
On November 25 2010 12:33 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 mustache wrote:
I was replying to the guy that thought a Terran could just pump out ravens to nullify your ravens. Not that I would get it vs DTs or banshee harass. way to jump the gun there buddy.
And yes it feels like toss players in this thread want the DT to be their banshee. The complaint is that it takes too long to get and you eco gets hurt too much. so you are screwed.
making it as safe as a banshee rush and equally fast as well, and being an invisible unit would make it feel VERY similar to the banshee.
The points I've been trying to make are these:
1)The DT was compared to the banshee. In an attempt to show that a banshee and DT weren't very far apart time/cost wise(even favouring the DT, which i did not expect) i wrote down their stats. This means that both have a similar chance of wreaking an economy.
2)I believe that if toss can get DTs more safely it will be too similar to the banshee, creating less diverse matchups. I think DTs are viable, just not as a early harass like banshees. a DT warp in with warpprisms can be devestating later in the game
3)despite what some may believe the army a terran can create when going 1-1-1 cannot stand up to a toss build geared mroe towards units than tech. DTs are risky, but banshees can be too, the difference between the risks really gives the DT an unexpected factor the banshee doesnt have. The banshee will be accounted for in most builds while stopping DTs isnt always planned.
In the OP you asked for a mature discussion. I've been trying to discuss this maturely. I'm the only one that has posted actual game facts instead of pure theorycrafting. I have also refrained from insulting others while you have not. If you're looking for a mature discussion perhaps you should go read one that you yourself don't take part in. You are laughably ignoring the most important part of this discussion which is that if a protoss player techs up quickly towards the dark shrine they are left in shambles. A terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases. The banshee example is brought up because they offer similar roles. As you say one is slightly better than the other. Except not only is it slightly better, it allows you to still use that tech lab towards a barracks for more maruaders, ghosts, or more siege tanks, ravens or fucking battlecruisers, take your pick. A dark shrine and dts are now useless because the terran knows you have dt tech. It is glaringly obvious that you have not played much Protoss in a PvT. Terran easily has the gas to support a raven should he choose to go for a 2-3marauder/marine/1-2banshee/1raven push, which decimates a Protoss without fail who rushes dark shrine. If you land your PDD close enough to his new expo or ramp there is nowhere to back up to. Did I mention PDD lasts 3 minutes? Do you wanna suggest any protoss tech switch with that kind of effect after he goes for dark shrine? Terran also has the ability to show 1 banshee, shut down an expo attempt and then use that tech lab for siege tanks or 5rax marauder/marine.
You're basing this off the assumption that we're talking about tvp and only tvp. My point is that DTs can be used, maybe just not as a fast tech unit, and not as an answer to terran going banshee. But as a later game harass, which i have had used against me, and it can be very annoying to deal with. Just because terran has lots of harassing units doesnt mean protoss should have the same which is what you are implying here:
" terran player can expand while he banshee harasses, hellion drops, or just straight up 3rax variants vs a dark shrine build. Nothing you say about terran tech being a dead end matters because it actually isn't, there are ways to switch addons or transition out of your choice. Dark shrine is actually a dead end. I guess you could mass archons off one or two bases.
"
Protoss is a race which is very stiff in it's tech. That the way it plays. Why you make arguements based on what terran can do is beyond me, they aren't the same race and as such shouldn't have the same tech routes/flexibilty.
And btw there is a PvP build where you do mass archons and zealots, search for "archon zealots"
I can agree with you saying fast banshee is far more usefel and safe than Dark templar. More so than i originally thought. But I think it is balanced the way it is, and works as intended.
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
|
On November 25 2010 20:54 mustache wrote:
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
The fact of the matter is the only reason you think this way is because you play only terran. If you played a few dozen games as toss at high diamond level I'm sure you'd think differently
|
On November 25 2010 21:44 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 20:54 mustache wrote:
In the end it boils down to the question: does protoss need a fast harass type unit like the banshee?
my answer: no, it works fine as it is, it is balanced. It shouldn't be changed just so Protoss players can get the joy of having more tech flexibilty.
The fact of the matter is the only reason you think this way is because you play only terran. If you played a few dozen games as toss at high diamond level I'm sure you'd think differently
+1, i feel you're really biased about this because (and correct me if im wrong) you just came in with SC2 (not that it's bad at all) but because of that you havent known the BW protoss which had the DT as a good harass and good possible opener out of many.
Honestly, I'm Plat, not going to lie or try to argue that I understand more about the game then anyone else, but my opinion is formed on watching GSL and MLG and listening to SotG and hearing all these tosses say that there's difficulty in harassing. so yea...If that little tech path went back to how it was in BW, it'd be similar to banshee, but also harder to pull off and more risky, cant fly off a DT and cant repair it. It'd make for a lot of interesting all-in plays like huge Prism DT pressure followed with traditional 4gate. It would punish people for not getting detection vs P. It would, in effect, add a new layer to the game, IMO
|
Sure i probably am biased towards terran, but I don't think you're completely unbiased yourself. noone's ever gonna be completely objective. And yes I did play and follow broodwar. I followed mroe than played but still played on and off for 3-4 years.
It doesn't matter what broodwar had. Broodwar is not SC2 and cannot be compared. Just because a fast DT in BW worked doesnt mean it i will work or is even intended to work in SC2, it doesnt even mean it would be a good idea to patch it to work.
If you remember, in BW Terran didnt have a very good harassing unit like the Banshee and Toss had reavers/DTs/storm drops. in SC2 the tables turned and Terran now has the invisible early harassing unit.
What kind of harassment which worked similar to Reavers did terran have in BW? maybe a tank cliff drop which is very situational and nowhere near as devestating. Terrans did fine in BW even without a unit like that.
It worked and that was good. PvT works fine as it is atm as well and i honestly don't see the need to change it.
|
On November 26 2010 00:14 mustache wrote:
Sure i probably am biased towards terran, but I don't think you're completely unbiased yourself. noone's ever gonna be completely objective.
I play random so...
|
...so that doesnt guarantee you to be a completly objective player either?
|
The more I play Protoss, the more it feels like I'm doing the same thing over and over and over. Even in 2v2s, it's pretty much survive the inevitable attempt to kill me 2v1, macro up, get colossi and start beating people down. Sometimes the other player goes especially heavy on roaches or marauders, so instead of collosi, carriers are more worth it.
I tried to vary my style by being more aggressive, but it seems overly risky and not worth it. Having to essentially open robo every freaking time against Terran is absolutely stupid. Dts are great late game against Zerg, since you can put pylons at various points across the map, and depending on where their army is, you can warp in dts and start cutting up their drones all over the place. Terran just scans like nothing ever happened.
The main issues are the lack of early detection, the void ray being overnerfed, and the dark shrine's cost and build time being ridiculous. There's not much point in building a dark shrine if they can counter your dts without ever scouting by the time it finishes building, or just walk over you because you've invested too much in it.
Also a cheaper twilight council would go a long way in helping diversify build orders. Considering it is necessary for zealots and stalkers to be worth anything at all, it opens up the path for high and dark templar, the upgrades for charge and blink are expensive, and it is necessary for level 2 upgrades, I think a reduced cost would be appropriate (125/50?). Especially since the cost of the templar archives and the dark shrine are huge.
I would decrease the cost of the dark shrine to 100/175 (or maybe 100/200 if the twilight council is actually made cheaper), and the build time to 60 seconds. Still expensive, still takes a while to warp in, but you don't have to sacrifice your firstborn child to get dts now.
Hallucinated observers being able to detect idea has been mentioned repeatedly. It's a good idea. Either that or move the observer to being built at the cybernetics core. Then all that is left is adjusting the void ray to reasonable middle ground between where it was and where it is now, and I think Protoss would have a lot more options without being that much stronger. It is possible the colossus would need to be adjusted after these changes, but if that means the race isn't so stupidly reliant on them, I'm for all that.
Edit: Also, stalkers scaling very poorly compared to marauders and roaches is also an issue. :> Thing is balancing the damage upgrades and an earlier blink from a cheaper twilight council might be tough.. but meh.
|
On November 26 2010 00:29 mustache wrote:
...so that doesnt guarantee you to be a completly objective player either?
But obviously far less biased then someone who plays just one race.
|
This problem is very well known since Beta; while it may not be imbalance, it certainly make Protoss less interesting to play.
However, any fix on this (giving Protoss an effective harassing option) will probably not come until the expansion. Other race will need some kind of defensive unit to counter it, if they can scout our new harass unit or faster DT without the shrine (or add upgrades there).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
