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Active: 33487 users

Keyboard and hand positioning

Blogs > Tayko
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Tayko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Netherlands47 Posts
November 03 2010 19:48 GMT
#1
Hi TL!
Hope you can help me out with this, im new to sc2 so im not sure what im doing wrong/what i should be doing
i play toss
this is my keyboard
[image loading]
this is how i keep my hand positioned on it atm
[image loading]
yes i know tiny hands xD
any tips/advice on proper hand positioning for a protoss player? thanks in advance!
Zerebreat
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany32 Posts
November 03 2010 19:55 GMT
#2
Intended for SC1 but idea is the same.
http://starfeeder.gameriot.com/blogs/Tasteless/Secrets-of-StarCraft-Pro-Gamers-The-competitive-keyboard
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 20:00:53
November 03 2010 19:56 GMT
#3
I'm not an expert and I only somewhat play Protoss, but I'd suggest maybe you want (from pinky -> thumb) ctrl/shift, w/2,e/3,5,b as your default hand positioning. Your hand probably wants to be setup so 2,3,5 feel like the home row, but w/e should also feel comfortable. Likewise you need to make sure your thumb has the freedom to hit v, c, & spacebar. For me I use the side of my thumb to hit spacebar (well I actually rarely, if ever, use space bar). It depends on your hotkey setup and comfort level. It seems like you favor 1 or 4 over 5 for your nexus/hatch/cc (I like it on 5 personally) in which case your hand positioning roughly makes sense. Though for probes I really think you would want to trend way from 4 as it's much more natural to hit 5e with index+middle than 4e and one of the biggest (unobtainable) ideals for your keyboard usage is to not have to hit 2 keys in a row with the same finger.

*This assumes you use w for warpgates which I know some people tend to not do.
Logo
Ichabod
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1659 Posts
November 03 2010 19:57 GMT
#4
This is a very preferential topic, but from what I've seen most people put their pinky either on the control key or the shift key, then use fingers accordingly.

There's also the issue of holding your hand support (3 general options):
-Wrist bearing weight
-Elbow bearing weight
-Shoulder bearing weight (not having elbow or wrist touching anything, just your fingers on the keyboard)

I'm not sure which of the above is better, or just based on preference (wrist bearing weight seems a lot more difficult to be mobile on the keyboard to reach upper # buttons).
NeXiLe
Profile Joined February 2006
Canada262 Posts
November 03 2010 20:01 GMT
#5
Coming from FPS's, I generally still have my hand on WASD. Number keys are very close by and I still have instant access to warp gates, attack and stop (although I don't use stop all that often.) Ctrl is pressed with the area below my pinkey^^
Vz0
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada378 Posts
November 03 2010 20:03 GMT
#6
On November 04 2010 05:01 NeXiLe wrote:
Coming from FPS's, I generally still have my hand on WASD. Number keys are very close by and I still have instant access to warp gates, attack and stop (although I don't use stop all that often.) Ctrl is pressed with the area below my pinkey^^

ya same ^___^

Because of this I will never be able to be pr0w like all the rts pr0s that can use #s 1-10 on their keyboard.

I can only use 1-4, 5 is stretching it.

In FPS 1 is your main gun. 2 is your side arm. 3 is your nife. 4 is your flashbang/grenade.

Rarely do you go pass that.



Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 20:08:05
November 03 2010 20:05 GMT
#7
On November 04 2010 05:01 NeXiLe wrote:
Coming from FPS's, I generally still have my hand on WASD. Number keys are very close by and I still have instant access to warp gates, attack and stop (although I don't use stop all that often.) Ctrl is pressed with the area below my pinkey^^


W-A-S-D is really really bad. You almost completely waste your ring and middile fingers. You also limit access to the right side of the keyboard (especially 6,7,8) and your fingers 'idle' either with a really steep arch over a,w/s,d or you have to move your wrist to go for the numbers. Your thumb is also hard to idle near/over v,b. WASD positioning is also really bad for some combos, for example 5sd5sd5sd5sd or 4sd (which I'm not a fan of to begin with) for making drones at your hatcheries requires you to hit the # with your index finger then s with your middle then d with your index. With a shifted hand positioning I can hit 5 with index, s with ring, and d with middle for a very fast key combination.

It takes literally maybe 15-20 games to adjust reasonably well to a shifted position. I highly recommend you force yourself to do it. And you can even do it vs AI so you don't have to lose ladder points.
Logo
PandaBlunt
Profile Joined September 2010
United States292 Posts
November 03 2010 20:16 GMT
#8
I keep my (left) hand on ASDF. It is in the middle of (most) every hotkey for the game.I use 3 for my nexus because E (for Probe) and Chronoboost (C) is right under it. 4 for Robo bay, 5 for Stargate, 1 for Main army, 2 for casters (or other important units). Shift and control are hit by my pinky. I got into diamond using this, maybe it will help you! Also, there are some great finger control exercises I can link you to if you want. Any other questions feel free to PM.

-PandaBlunt
(╮°-°)╮┳━┳
MaliciousOne
Profile Joined June 2010
United States47 Posts
November 03 2010 20:19 GMT
#9
@ Logo

Very good post. I guess the easy way to name this would be E-S-D-F so that it's easier to remember the position?
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 20:30:24
November 03 2010 20:24 GMT
#10
On November 04 2010 05:19 MaliciousOne wrote:
@ Logo

Very good post. I guess the easy way to name this would be E-S-D-F so that it's easier to remember the position?


It might be, but it's not really accurate because that implies you keep your fingers over esdf while you really want to be focusing on keeping your fingers over the # keys as much as possible. Sure as zerg (especially) you may have a finger more naturally over s due to how often you press it, but even then it's still an exception more than anything (and it may be more ideal to neutral it on 2). F/E especially are hotkeys that don't deserve a neutral finger for zerg and Terran as they don't even correspond to anything particularly important.

Just make sure you understand that while you might call it e-s-d-f that's not actually where you're idling your fingers and you want your wrist and fingers to be in a position where they have their low arch and comfortable rest when held over the # keys so you don't need to move your wrist often.

Basically to me for hotkeys and hand positioning I'm trying to solve the following in order...

1. How can I gain access to the hotkeys I need to hit.
2. How can I reduce the amount of distance I need to move my fingers.
3. How can I reduce the amount of movement in my wrist.
4. How can I create the best cycles of fingers so that I don't reuse the same finger too quickly (5sd being all different fingers rather than index-middle-index for example). This is meant to allow time for my finger to get in position on the next key I want to hit with it before I actually need to hit it.
5. How can I position my hand to be accurate in hitting all of the keys.
6. How can I be comfortable while doing all of the above
Logo
Licmyobelisk
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines3682 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 20:45:45
November 03 2010 20:30 GMT
#11
I was going to make a post with pictures regarding this topic when I got banned but wasted my ban on mass gaming lol...

I'm not the best but my mechanics are pretty up par there (around 136 apm in SC 2, uses Terran)
Usually the right way to ctrl+1 group is either:
use your pinky for both shift+ctrl then index finger on the numbers from 1 to 3.
or if you're like flash+jaedong you can use your pinky for both shift+ctrl and I have no idea how they do it.

do not use your thumb, in ctrl-grouping 1-2-3. this is a pretty terrible practice since you're limiting your fingers to doing other stuff (see an episode in Day[9] about keyboard mechanics)

from here on out,
use your index/middle finger for 4 to 0 keys then force yourself/practice this until you get a feel for it.
use these two (index/middle/ring) for the usuall "A" "S" "F" "G" "Q" "W" "E"

if ever you press from ctrl 8 to 0 usually I use the ring finger for "S" then if you want to ctrl the 8 to 0.
use the right ctrl key.

Thumb should be pressing on the following keys "V" "Z" "M" "B" "N" "SPACEBAR" etc.

anyway that's how things go for a terran user like me
I don't think I've ever wished my opponent good luck prior to a game. When I play, I play to win. I hope every opponent I ever have is cursed with fucking terrible luck. I hope they're stuck playing underneath a stepladder with a black cat in attendance a
PiousMartyr
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada176 Posts
November 03 2010 20:33 GMT
#12
I'm not that great a player (somewhere in Plat), but I'm very comfortable with my keyboard hand. I type with an average of 95WPM over a few minutes, with bursts into 110++. Not the greatest SC2 player, but I can click my keyboard pretty quickly.

My advice: keep your fingers curled like you're playing piano, keep your hand high + fingers curled. Hold your hand on the home row to reach everything fairly easily. Sit with fairly good posture and in an ergonomic position.

I typically plant my pinky on the A or shift key and my thumb in the middle of the keyboard. Ring/Middle/Index stay over SDFG. It's also nice to keep your pinky on the A key so that when you move your hand back to the middle it ends up in the right place instead of a key over.

I hold my pinky on A so I can reach up to the 7 key comfortable without having to move my hand, can stretch to reach 8/9 and only have to move my hand to hit 0. It's also really easy to drop my pinky down to shift and control.

For numbers, I usually use
1-2: ring finger
3-4: middle finger
5-0: index finger
but if I'm going quickly and my hand moves around, I use whatever finger is closest/most comfortable.

Try holding your hand so it can move around the keyboard quickly and do typing speed tests where your left hand has to press everything up to 6YHN or even 7UJM to get it used using more of the keyboard fast.
Tayko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Netherlands47 Posts
November 03 2010 20:50 GMT
#13
On November 04 2010 05:30 Licmyobelisk wrote:
(see an episode in Day[9] about keyboard mechanics)

could you pls link me? :3
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 21:09:16
November 03 2010 21:06 GMT
#14
Since I use 3 army control-groups I always have ring-middle-index positioned over 1-3

What I was wondering, how do you produce zealots/templars (Z/T) with protoss? I've gotten used to using the middle finger for W(arpgate) and then the thumb for Z/T because this way I can immediately go back to my main army with the ring finger on 1 afterwards. How do you do it? Does anybody hit Z/T with index?
I simply can't handle holding shift with pinky and stretching with the index to Z/T, but would be curious if anybody does it.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
November 03 2010 21:21 GMT
#15
Your keyboard has a different layout than US keyboards where z is on the bottom left I think. None the less do you have tiny hands or a big keyboard? I have larger than average hands so shift->y (same spot as your z) is not much of a stretch at all. For reference I can hit left shift+o with my pinky and index finger.
Logo
Maetl
Profile Joined August 2010
United States93 Posts
November 03 2010 21:21 GMT
#16
My advice: keep your fingers curled like you're playing piano, keep your hand high + fingers curled. Hold your hand on the home row to reach everything fairly easily. Sit with fairly good posture and in an ergonomic position.


This is what I do, and it works great. I will frequently have my hand a bit sideways though (with my fingers resting on/near ZSDT/5) to keep my fingers near 5-9 (hatcheries, then queens), T (mutalisks), D (drones), S (larva), and Z (zerglings). If I am doing more army control than macro, my fingers move up towards the number keys.
imperator-xy
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Germany1366 Posts
November 03 2010 21:42 GMT
#17
honestly

if you play you will just learn what fits best to you. you may use the tutorial by tasteless ( http://starfeeder.gameriot.com/blogs/Tasteless/Secrets-of-StarCraft-Pro-Gamers-The-competitive-keyboard ), but if your new you should be playing and having fun instead of thinking how to become better.
this isnt meant to be a negative posting. its just one of those things that come naturally from time to time.
kko
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7 Posts
November 03 2010 22:11 GMT
#18
A little bit off topic but i wanna ask if anyone got the videos from jaedong's hand placement ?
all videos from the past were deleted ( youtube) :/
Nausea
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden807 Posts
November 03 2010 22:39 GMT
#19
In response to imperator-xy:
Playing much and finding what fits you best is a good idea, however it's also good to check what good players use. Because you can find yourself in a position where you have been playing for 2 years and you have a less than optimal setup, now all of a sudden it has become a bad habit and a lot harder to get rid of since you are used to it.

Just food for thought.
Set it ablaze!
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 23:11:48
November 03 2010 23:02 GMT
#20
On November 04 2010 06:21 Logo wrote:
Your keyboard has a different layout than US keyboards where z is on the bottom left I think. None the less do you have tiny hands or a big keyboard? I have larger than average hands so shift->y (same spot as your z) is not much of a stretch at all. For reference I can hit left shift+o with my pinky and index finger.


Ah, sorry for confusion, yes obviously Z/Y is switched for me - nice catch btw, haven't thought of that

Dunno if I have a big keyboard but I have definitely small hands (pain for piano-playing as well), I can't even hit left shift + i let alone o with pinky and index; left shift + u is the best I can do and therefore left shift + Z/Y "feels not right"

Before anybody states the obvious: of course nobody should switch away from something he is very comfortable with...I was just asking out of pure interest.

EDIT: Did anybody of you who came from other RTS also have problems with the protoss warpgate macro? Reason: shift; I have NEVER used shift when producing units, I have always queued my buildings to something like 5-0 and produce with 5+hotkey, 6+hotkey etc. where my left hand slided to the middle....now with warpgate tech I'm FORCED to also hold shift with the pinky for more efficiency....tbh I felt like a complete RTS noob at my first tries.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
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