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tl;dr Running into blatant, illegal discrimination in trying to get housing in Ontario. Don't know what I can do about it.
I've been trying to find a place to rent for myself and two friends in Ontario, and I'm having a lot of problems. We've seen a bunch of places and until yesterday we didn't find one that was suitable for what we wanted (ie large enough and quiet enough + location). We did find one that fit the criteria yesterday, but the landlord was in a bit of a state of shock. The place had been completely wrecked (like thousands of dollars in damage) by the previous tenants, and the landlord really didn't want to rent to us. She eventually said that she'd require over 2 months rent in a damage deposit, and that she would be the only one who decided what constituted damage and what did not, along with how much any repairs would cost. That's a lot of money to put in someone's hands with no guarantee whatsoever of fair evaluation of "damage." We said we'd think about it, and we left.
When I got home I looked up damage deposits online and found that they are illegal in Ontario. The landlord is not allowed to accept anything in a security deposit beyond the last month's rent, per provincial law. It's clear to me that the reason she wants the deposit is because we are young and male, just like the last reason that wrecked the place. Seems reasonable that she'd want to protect herself and make a decision on who she rents to based on who is least likely to cause damage, except that it's illegal in Ontario (and I assume everywhere else in Canada) to use gender, age, and a whole bunch of other protected characteristics as an influence in making your decision on whether to turn down an application or not. I do understand her position, but it's illegal to profile us as potential tenants based on our age and gender, and that's what happened. I am certain that if we were a young family, three women or anything but young and male we'd have been able to rent the place immediately. That said we're still talking to the landlord about the place and she might decide to rent it to us, so who knows.
One place that definitely won't rent to us is one I found on an advertisement online a few hours ago. They gave me a phone number to call to set up an appointment, and I was suspicious of it immediately. Why not just use email? I called anyway, and here's the convo essentially word for word.
Me: Hi this is so-and-so calling, is your place at X Street still available for rent?
Her: Yes, but are you a student?
Me: No, I just finished up school and...
Her: [interrupts] Are you young guys?
Me: Yes.
Her: I'm not renting to young guys.
Me: What, but...
Her: No, I'm not interested in renting to young guys. Bye.
Me: Bye.
Great. I mean that's just blatant discrimination on gender and age, both of which are definitely illegal in this exact situation in Ontario. I looked it up more in depth after the phone call and it's clear as day that this is against the law. But what can I do? Record phone calls and videotape house showings secretly to create evidence, and then hire a lawyer? There's the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, where you can lodge complaints, but I don't even know what evidence I would have to collect. It's just extremely frustrating to be in this situation, turned down (probably) from two places because of illegal discrimination on protected traits. At least try and give me the runaround and make up some story about taking it off the market or something, don't just say to my face that you are illegally profiling me and denying me the possibility of housing.
I understand too that renters want to protect their investments and their property, and that young males my age are significantly more likely to cause damage than other possible tenants. But while that's an incentive for the landlord to discriminate on gender and age, it doesn't make it illegal or acceptable. It's obvious that landlords shouldn't and can't legally say "Sorry, I don't rent to blacks", even though blacks are significantly more likely to be involved in crime per statistics, because that's profiling and making a decision based on a protected trait. Being young (age discrimination) and male (gender discrimination) is just a different form of the above.
To sum up then, is it common sense from the landlord to not rent to use based on our age and gender? Yes. Does that make it okay? An ethical question that is beyond this blog. Is it against the law? Definitely. But it doesn't seem there is much I can do about it. And that's very frustrating.
Some sources:
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/resources/news/housingback/pdf (p16-20, especially bottom of 19 and 20)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h19_e.htm#s2s1
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/H-6/page-2.html#codese:6
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I would call again with a tape recorder running, pose as someone else. See if you can get the same reaction from her.
Once you have her on tape, what's the need for a lawyer?
Just call her up and say you have evidence of discrimination and that you are prepared to press charges. She will probably cave.
If not, take her to court. Represent yourself.
In the states it is sometimes illegal to record someone over the phone without their consent. Make sure that any laws like that don't apply to you.
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On September 23 2010 05:07 SpicyCrab wrote:
I would call again with a tape recorder running, pose as someone else. See if you can get the same reaction from her.
Once you have her on tape, what's the need for a lawyer?
Just call her up and say you have evidence of discrimination and that you are prepared to press charges. She will probably cave.
If not, take her to court. Represent yourself.
In the states it is sometimes illegal to record someone over the phone without their consent. Make sure that any laws like that don't apply to you.
I could, though I don't think this is something you can go to a lawyer with. I think you are supposed to file a complaint to the Human Rights Commission or some other body. Canada and Ontario are one-party only recording states, though, so I can legally record telephone calls without giving notice.
That said I really just want to get a place. I don't know. It's also very easy for her to recant and then just put in some other (legal) qualification for renting the place that we can't meet, or say it's off the market (only to magically reappear a few days later), or anything else.
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Ask yourself the same question. If you owned a house (which are expensive to buy and maintain by the way), would you rent to a group of young black guys? Answer honestly.
If I was a landlord, I would not rent my place to a group of young guys who look like they party alot. I don't want them having people over constantly and trashing the place or even hotboxing my rooms. While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. It's their investment after all.
Btw, I'm a student at UW, and I see plenty of houses listed as female-preferred or female-only. Fact is, young guys are more likely to cause damage.
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On September 23 2010 05:15 buhhy wrote:
Ask yourself the same question. If you owned a house (which are expensive to buy and maintain by the way), would you rent to a group of young black guys? Answer honestly.
If I was a landlord, I would not rent my place to a group of young guys who look like they party alot. I don't want them having people over constantly and trashing the place or even hotboxing my rooms. While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. It's their investment after all.
Btw, I'm a student at UW, and I see plenty of houses listed as female-preferred or female-only. Fact is, young guys are more likely to cause damage.
I agree with your conclusion and mentioned it in the OP. I'm not debating ethics or what the landlord should do based on protecting their investment, which is a separate topic, but rather I'm talking about breaking the law via illegal discrimination that is covered by the Human Rights Act. Saying "It makes sense for me to break the law" doesn't make it any less illegal.
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I would just talk to the first landlord. Tell her you understand her concerns, but its illegal to ask for that kind of deposit. At the same time give past references from other places you have lived to try and calm her down. You cant prove anything about discrimination, and thats all that matters in court.
As for damages its always a good idea to get pictures before you move in so that way if she does claim damages later you have proof to counter act that.
EDIT: if you cant come to a civil agreement with your landlord with out getting courts involved BEFORE you even sign a lease, you prob dont really want to be living under that land lord
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On September 23 2010 05:15 buhhy wrote:
Ask yourself the same question. If you owned a house (which are expensive to buy and maintain by the way), would you rent to a group of young black guys? Answer honestly.
If I was a landlord, I would not rent my place to a group of young guys who look like they party alot. I don't want them having people over constantly and trashing the place or even hotboxing my rooms. While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. It's their investment after all.
Btw, I'm a student at UW, and I see plenty of houses listed as female-preferred or female-only. Fact is, young guys are more likely to cause damage.
Why not interview the students/young guys and try to get a gauge for what they are like. If they come across as irresponsible then you have a valid reason to not rent to them. Basing the decision solely on race/gender/age is unethical and illegal.
Seems cz wasn't even given a chance to make an impression.
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On September 23 2010 05:16 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:15 buhhy wrote:
Ask yourself the same question. If you owned a house (which are expensive to buy and maintain by the way), would you rent to a group of young black guys? Answer honestly.
If I was a landlord, I would not rent my place to a group of young guys who look like they party alot. I don't want them having people over constantly and trashing the place or even hotboxing my rooms. While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. It's their investment after all.
Btw, I'm a student at UW, and I see plenty of houses listed as female-preferred or female-only. Fact is, young guys are more likely to cause damage. I agree with your conclusion and mentioned it in the OP. I'm not debating ethics or what the landlord should do based on protecting their investment, which is a separate topic, but rather I'm talking about breaking the law via illegal discrimination that is covered by the Human Rights Act.
Weed is illegal, but do people report others for smoking it? I suggest you just find a lot of potential places, and just shrug if shit happens. I don't think it's worth pursuing such a small issue, even if you force them to rent you their place, the landlord can find ways to make you miserable.
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On September 23 2010 05:20 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:16 cz wrote:On September 23 2010 05:15 buhhy wrote:
Ask yourself the same question. If you owned a house (which are expensive to buy and maintain by the way), would you rent to a group of young black guys? Answer honestly.
If I was a landlord, I would not rent my place to a group of young guys who look like they party alot. I don't want them having people over constantly and trashing the place or even hotboxing my rooms. While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. It's their investment after all.
Btw, I'm a student at UW, and I see plenty of houses listed as female-preferred or female-only. Fact is, young guys are more likely to cause damage. I agree with your conclusion and mentioned it in the OP. I'm not debating ethics or what the landlord should do based on protecting their investment, which is a separate topic, but rather I'm talking about breaking the law via illegal discrimination that is covered by the Human Rights Act. Weed is illegal, but do people report others for smoking it? I suggest you just find a lot of potential places, and just shrug if shit happens. I don't think it's worth pursuing such a small issue, even if you force them to rent you their place, the landlord can find ways to make you miserable.
I agree with this as a pragmatic solution. It's just frustrating to have to A) deal with illegal discrimination and the resulting house searching difficulties as a result and B) know that I'm letting it go and they are getting away with it. This blog post is more of a stress-reliever than a serious question about my legal options.
That said the weed analogy doesn't work: you aren't negatively affected by someone else smoking weed. I am certainly being directly negatively affected by this discrimination.
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On September 23 2010 05:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:15 buhhy wrote:
While I would actually meet with them to access their personalities, I don't find it unethical for them to refuse based on age and gender. Why not interview the students/young guys and try to get a gauge for what they are like. If they come across as irresponsible then you have a valid reason to not rent to them. Basing the decision solely on race/gender/age is unethical and illegal. Seems cz wasn't even given a chance to make an impression.
I would, but not everyone thinks that way. If your $400k house gets wrecked, leaving you with $20k in damages, you would be pretty pissed too, and it would probably really skew your judgement and make you extremely cautious towards future tenants.
Then again, some people would just prefer to avoid the risk altogether.
Though personally, landlords like these annoy me as well, it's rather useless to get angry at them... after all, you're trying to get their house.
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her house, her rules. What do you get for even suing her for discrimination? Lawyer fees?
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On September 23 2010 05:25 TunaFishyMe wrote:
her house, her rules. What do you get for even suing her for discrimination? Lawyer fees?
I don't know what I'd get beyond the satisfaction of knowing I stood up for my rights. As for "her house, her rules," "our country, our laws" overrules that. It's the Human Rights Code (of all things) that we're talking about being violated here, not some obscure real-estate law.
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On September 23 2010 05:26 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:25 TunaFishyMe wrote:
her house, her rules. What do you get for even suing her for discrimination? Lawyer fees? I don't know what I'd get beyond the satisfaction of knowing I stood up for my rights. As for "her house, her rules," "our country, our laws" overrules that. It's the Human Rights Code (of all things) that we're talking about being violated here, not some obscure real-estate law.
Yeah, just go punch a brick wall or something, if it makes you feel better. It's difficult to enforce these laws and quite pointless to pursue since you didn't lose anything tangible.
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United States24637 Posts
Any time you are looking private, you have to shrug off that sort of treatment. There's no point in forcing the issue since you don't want to live under the roof of someone who is gonna pull shit. Find someone you are mutually happy with for the best results.
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Talk to a lawyer or something, but there's probably not much that can be done, and even if it can be done, I'm sure legal expenses would outweigh it....
certainly don't pretend to be someone else, record her, etc or anything that the first genius said.
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On September 23 2010 06:22 micronesia wrote:
Any time you are looking private, you have to shrug off that sort of treatment. There's no point in forcing the issue since you don't want to live under the roof of someone who is gonna pull shit. Find someone you are mutually happy with for the best results.
Pretty much this. What is the point of or paying for something from someone who has these kind of issues in the first place?
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You could tell her that you and your friends can get co-signers, that way if you DO trash the place (even though you wont) she will be safe in the knowledge that even if you wont pay it the person who cosigned will legally have to.
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United States22883 Posts
Unfortunately, Fair Housing (I'm not sure what it is in Canada but if the US has the law, I'm sure Canada does as well) doesn't cover age discrimination.
Like everything else (except working body organs), young people get screwed over.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Discrimination is reality. If they're not upfront about the discrimination then they'll do it behind your backs. Landlords who don't discriminate are either inexperienced or stupid. You're very likely to lose more money than you collect in rent. Young teens destroy property. Mid aged people who moved a lot in the past few years tend to make up lies and sue you for harassment, inadequate conditions, etc (especially true in cities where they favor tenants due to he huge population of renters). I believe that landlords should have the right to discriminate against you just like a insurance company, because they face similiar risks.
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On September 23 2010 07:26 T.O.P. wrote:
Discrimination is reality. If they're not upfront about the discrimination then they'll do it behind your backs. Landlords who don't discriminate are either inexperienced or stupid. You're very likely to lose more money than you collect in rent. Young teens destroy property. Mid aged people who moved a lot in the past few years tend to make up lies and sue you for harassment, inadequate conditions, etc (especially true in cities where they favor tenants due to he huge population of renters). I believe that landlords should have the right to discriminate against you just like a insurance company, because they face similiar risks.
Word. Seriously, what is you guy's perception of property and freedom of contracting? If someone doesn't want to rent his place out to a certain group of people, he should be free to not do so.
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Young males get discriminated against a lot I guess. Insurance prices are higher for this demographic. This is just the way the world is.
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On September 23 2010 07:19 Jibba wrote:
Unfortunately, Fair Housing (I'm not sure what it is in Canada but if the US has the law, I'm sure Canada does as well) doesn't cover age discrimination.
Like everything else (except working body organs), young people get screwed over.
Age is considered the same as race, gender, etc in Canada. Or at least the Ontario Human Rights Act, which is applicable to the landlord - tenant or possible landlord - tenant relationship does.
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Well if these people are playing games, you have to play the game as well. Next time you're looking for a nice place and the landlord asks you if you're a student, say yes.
btw which city in Ontario are you in interested in specifically?
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United States24637 Posts
I advise against lying about things such as whether or not you are a student... mainly for the reason I gave above but for other reasons as well.
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Really what it boils down to is whether or not you are good tenants. At the end of the day, the landlord just wants to rent his property hassle free and if you can be that tenant with a bit of fibbing to get the place, why not?
As long as you aren't totally sketchy and similar to a student (you probably are, because you happen to post on a videogame forum), I don't see what the big deal is.
I don't see why you would avoid renting a place from a landlord who nitpicks about having students micronesia? I don't really know the law, but I'd imagine one of the major reasons they would specifically want students is so they could get guarantors to insure potential damages.
My question to the OP is why you would even consider living near students to begin with.
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United States24637 Posts
On September 23 2010 10:23 Masamune wrote:
Really what it boils down to is whether or not you are good tenants. At the end of the day, the landlord just wants to rent his property hassle free and if you can be that tenant with a bit of fibbing to get the place, why not?
As long as you aren't totally sketchy and similar to a student (you probably are, because you happen to post on a videogame forum), I don't see what the big deal is.
I don't see why you would avoid renting a place from a landlord who nitpicks about having students micronesia? I don't really know the law, but I'd imagine one of the major reasons they would specifically want students is so they could get guarantors to insure potential damages.
My question to the OP is why you would even consider living near students to begin with.
First and foremost the chances of having problems down the road are very good. I was honest with my landlord where I live right now and if I had twisted it at all there's a good chance it would have been found out within the first couple of weeks judging from how things went lol.
If it's an absentee landlord it's a bit different than one who lives alongside you though I guess.
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On September 23 2010 07:26 T.O.P. wrote:
Discrimination is reality. If they're not upfront about the discrimination then they'll do it behind your backs. Landlords who don't discriminate are either inexperienced or stupid. You're very likely to lose more money than you collect in rent. Young teens destroy property. Mid aged people who moved a lot in the past few years tend to make up lies and sue you for harassment, inadequate conditions, etc (especially true in cities where they favor tenants due to he huge population of renters). I believe that landlords should have the right to discriminate against you just like a insurance company, because they face similiar risks.
Because landlords will run a regression on a nice neat data seat and be able to get good coefficients to discriminate fairly. I don't understand how a young male is less liable for damages than any other group. Even if he blew the house up... he'd be liable for recompensation and that would probably cover any transaction costs.
God it would be nice to bring some legal pain down.
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What exactly constitutes discrimination? My parents were trying to rent out the first floor of their house earlier this year and they literally went through 30+ potential renters. They were pretty picky on who they wanted to rent to, they preferred a Chinese family (since they're chinese and speak limited english) with no young kids because my dad needs to go to bed early for work and he didn't want to rent to a family with toddlers that would disturb his sleep.
Technically I guess this would be racial and age "discrimination" but imo they're perfectly legit reasons. I understand why anti-discrimination laws are in place, but honestly I think sometimes the "discrimination" term gets used too often, so is a house owner supposed to rent to the first person who wants to rent the apartment?
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Osaka27139 Posts
When I think about what we did to our first place....
It sucks, yes, but that is the demographic. This is where some patience and some references really help. If you can show you are not the norm, you should be ok. It sucks that the onus is on you when you are protected by law. But, there is the letter of the law and then there is reality. I wouldn't rent to me when I was 20 either.
If you don't have typical landlord references, you could try alternate routes like a pastor . teacher . etc.
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On September 23 2010 18:25 crazeman wrote:
What exactly constitutes discrimination? My parents were trying to rent out the first floor of their house earlier this year and they literally went through 30+ potential renters. They were pretty picky on who they wanted to rent to, they preferred a Chinese family (since they're chinese and speak limited english) with no young kids because my dad needs to go to bed early for work and he didn't want to rent to a family with toddlers that would disturb his sleep.
Technically I guess this would be racial and age "discrimination" but imo they're perfectly legit reasons. I understand why anti-discrimination laws are in place, but honestly I think sometimes the "discrimination" term gets used too often, so is a house owner supposed to rent to the first person who wants to rent the apartment?
Yeah it does. Most people are just a tad more intelligent than the landlord in the op, and if they don't want to rent to you because you've got dipshit 20 year old stapled to your head, they'll say have that they are currently considering someone else or something.
Most people just don't bother with housing discrimination suits against small private landlords because it's not worth it the trouble. The tables totally turn once you actually start renting—the tenant can not pay rent for 6 months and still not get evicted. It is utter fucking bullshit. Short of murdering the landlord's dog and trying to burn the house down, it's a goddamn process to evict a shitty tenant, hence the landlord's reluctance in renting to certain demographics.
If the landlord owns a complex or something, different story. That's where you'll see a lot of housing discrimination suits
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On September 23 2010 10:11 micronesia wrote:
I advise against lying about things such as whether or not you are a student... mainly for the reason I gave above but for other reasons as well.
I disagree. Absolutely say that you're a student since it will increase your odds. I'm not advocating that you lie but that you look introspectively to see what you are studying.
You don't need to say that you're a student at a university, just that you're a student. One definition of a student is, "One who studies something" so as long as you study/learn things on your own, you're a student.
Hell, most registered "students" are just pupils. They don't try and learn things. They just passively listen to their prof.
If your prospective landlord keeps probing, say that you're actively studying blah and hope to be an expert in blah amount of time. If the landlord asks you which institution, say that you're self-improving because you're more advanced in your study than what local institutions offer.
You don't need to lie to get around people's biases. You simply have to convince them that you're not a typical person who can be categorized that easily.
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There is a reason for this. In Canada it's damn near impossible to evict people if they rent from you and decide to stop paying. My parents rented out their 6 bedroom house to a lawyer who seemed great on paper. He paid maybe 3 months rent then stopped. It took my parents about a year to kick his ass out of the home. Canada is crazy about laws that protect deadbeats and the poor. As a homeowner in Canada, hell, I wouldn't let you rent either!
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United States24637 Posts
On September 24 2010 00:47 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 10:11 micronesia wrote:
I advise against lying about things such as whether or not you are a student... mainly for the reason I gave above but for other reasons as well. I disagree. Absolutely say that you're a student since it will increase your odds. I'm not advocating that you lie but that you look introspectively to see what you are studying. You don't need to say that you're a student at a university, just that you're a student. One definition of a student is, "One who studies something" so as long as you study/learn things on your own, you're a student. Hell, most registered "students" are just pupils. They don't try and learn things. They just passively listen to their prof. If your prospective landlord keeps probing, say that you're actively studying blah and hope to be an expert in blah amount of time. If the landlord asks you which institution, say that you're self-improving because you're more advanced in your study than what local institutions offer. You don't need to lie to get around people's biases. You simply have to convince them that you're not a typical person who can be categorized that easily.
We will have to agree to disagree. It is my belief that if you are not officially registered somewhere as a student and not about to become registered somewhere, that you should not tell your prospective landlord you are a student. Coming up with some bs about how you like to learn won't undo the problems that could very well get created later (and by later I mean the day you are moving in etc).
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On September 24 2010 04:10 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 00:47 Durak wrote:On September 23 2010 10:11 micronesia wrote:
I advise against lying about things such as whether or not you are a student... mainly for the reason I gave above but for other reasons as well. I disagree. Absolutely say that you're a student since it will increase your odds. I'm not advocating that you lie but that you look introspectively to see what you are studying. You don't need to say that you're a student at a university, just that you're a student. One definition of a student is, "One who studies something" so as long as you study/learn things on your own, you're a student. Hell, most registered "students" are just pupils. They don't try and learn things. They just passively listen to their prof. If your prospective landlord keeps probing, say that you're actively studying blah and hope to be an expert in blah amount of time. If the landlord asks you which institution, say that you're self-improving because you're more advanced in your study than what local institutions offer. You don't need to lie to get around people's biases. You simply have to convince them that you're not a typical person who can be categorized that easily. We will have to agree to disagree. It is my belief that if you are not officially registered somewhere as a student and not about to become registered somewhere, that you should not tell your prospective landlord you are a student. Coming up with some bs about how you like to learn won't undo the problems that could very well get created later (and by later I mean the day you are moving in etc).
It doesn't need to be bs. Perhaps he's a smart guy who does like learning things (cooking, trades, whatever)
There are a lot of smart people that learn a lot more than students do. Most students that I've met are lazy and don't study. Rather, they assume the school system will teach them enough through diffusion.
I was simply trying to give him some advice on dealing with biased people if he is indeed a respectable tenant. If he's not, I suppose he could lie with my advice, but anyone can do that. 
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Yeah, lying, being a smartass or whatever you wanna term that as will definitely not get you anywhere.
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Life isn't fair. They aren't supposed to discriminate against you but they will. There is pretty much nothing a lawyer will do for you, so suck it up and keep looking.
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EPT
