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Okay so I'm going to bring this up again because I think even though I made a post about it in the past with SC2 and the influx of members on Team Liquid it really is important. My previous post was in reference to a specific event "TSL." And this is more in general so now you get to sit by for another angry Raelcun rant about how things aren't the way they should be.
I'm going to get straight to the point
4. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE Contribute to the site. Everyone should pitch in. Some people contribute by being helpful when someone posts a question. Some people contribute by writing interesting posts that stimulate discussion or by uploading relevant and useful facts and information. Some people contribute by posting news from the gaming world. Others contribute by providing resources allowing us all to enjoy this game. Still others contribute by simply making everyone laugh. Contribution can take many forms and there's no single prescribed way to go about it. But, like good micro, we know it when we see it. Many contributors will have stars or special icons by their name. It's not a license to do anything they want, but good contributors will always get favorable treatment. For you this means, when you create a new thread, make sure to include content worth discussing in it. A link or youtube video is not enough. An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed. We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content.
Directly from the TL Ten commandments, now why do I quote this first? Because last time I made a post about this I got responses like
I rated this blog a 1 because it's just bad. Everyone *has* to contribute? Really?
Well guess what nameless buddy with almost 5k posts that I shall not name publicly, yes you have to contribute. That doesn't mean omg Rael but contributing is sooo hard. Contributing can mean MANY different things in fact it can even be easy.
And here's what it comes down to, what contribution is is a really fluid concept. You don't have to run a tournament, you don't have to cast. You don't have to do anything even public just try to keep your little private section of Team Liquid clean and up to par and make it as best as you can. This website used to be a community and now it just seems to be a lot of angry nerds (especially in the Starcraft 2 forum.) Who can't get along about anything. TL used to be able to be elitist by saying well at least we can have meaningful discussions about things while all of the other websites just flame each other.
Wellll go look at the SC2 forum it's pretty bad. So now I'm here to say why does it have to be? Why can't we take Team Liquid back? Banlings are in, if you've been around for a while you can use the report button. Don't abuse it just because someone disagreed with you but when you see that guy posting and you're thinking "wow that was over the line I hope he gets banned for that." Hit the damn report button hell even that can be considered contributing to the website.
Go look at the volume of threads in the Starcraft 2 Forums, go ahead look I'll wait.
Okay you back? It's amazing isn't it? Did you not actually look and are waiting for me to quote a number at you? Well too bad I'm not going to. Go look at the volume of Closed threads in the Closed forum (bottom left corner of the page.) The mods are working hard but given the amount of posts going on it's understandable they can't keep up.
Team Liquid used to be and still is a great website but all of the trash going on in the forums makes me want to just give up on posting sometimes. But you guys know me, when I get frustrated I make uppity this shit should change blogs. So get out there and make some quality posts and take our community back, because god damn it's bad out there right now.
-Rael
  
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To me, a big problem is with the huge amount of noise right now in TL with the huge influx of posters (and it isn't just because so many are new, it's the fact that there are so many in of itself), where even if people don't necessarily make boneheaded posts, they don't really add anything useful to the discussion either, just stating their opinion which may be nice on a small forum, but overkill when maybe 2/3rds of an interesting thread is taken up by one-liners.
That's why I've actually started posting less, because I don't want to be adding to the problem - if there are simply too many posts, people have a tendency to just skim and overlook stuff, which overall degrades the quality of the forum. So, I try to post only when I think it will be useful to the thread, or when I'm having a discussion with someone, where I know we're actually communicating with each other rather than simply stating our opinions in a one-way fashion.
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The problem is people are too caught up in their post count, they think especially because of the whole veteran thing if they get their post count higher people will listen to them more. Yes if you're being controversial with a low post count people will go huh? But for the most part the vast majority of people dont even look at your post count unless you're doing something really out there. Many people make great first posts and get applauded for it. I mean you're right but I think it comes down to people just wanting to get their posts higher and get a new nifty icon.
I try to be pretty choosy on what I reply to as well and you'll see I average 2 posts a day that's not really very high at all. IDK it's one way to improve things but not necessarily the only way.
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It's certainly annoying the number of posters who would rather critique your ability to write, pretend to be moderators, etc etc, than post and contribute themselves (not even including the barely-more-positive side of things like "I agree" being a whole post.) If a post you've read is bad pr irrelevant, by virtue of somebody quoting it and saying "this guy made a stupid post, please delete mod, they've made a bad post themselves.
edit: oops I'm stupid on the rest of this post.
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I agree. I use the report button a lot more often now, especially in the SC2 forums and live report threads.
1-liner balance whines need to be warned and banned without lenience.
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Alot of people are flaming and being contradictory just for the sake of doing so on the SC2 forums. I came to TL because i was tired of all the Bnet crap, but now its like im reading arena junkies again. People just using Post counts and ladder rankings as an excuse to be elitist and make cruel posts. and Just the other day i pointed out a potential flaw in someones strategy and like 5 different people flamed me and tried to make me look foolish. I don't see the point of posting your strategy if you don't want discussion and constructive criticism :/
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On September 12 2010 15:21 Nokarot wrote:It's certainly annoying the number of posters who would rather critique your ability to write, pretend to be moderators, etc etc, than post and contribute themselves (not even including the barely-more-positive side of things like "I agree" being a whole post.) If a post you've read is bad pr irrelevant, by virtue of somebody quoting it and saying "this guy made a stupid post, please delete mod, they've made a bad post themselves. To play devils advocate though, if I may.. Just because you're e-famous, I don't think by posting yet another TvZ imbalance thread, that said thread could be called contributing. Of course, you've contributed in many other ways- more than I- I just think that in some ways its a dead horse. It's a dead horse that needs addressing, but surely you can contribute without starting a shiny new thread so that everyone hears The Mighty Raelcun's OP as the headline. There's already an active 76 page thread on it. I realize everyone wants their opinions heard, but making duplicate threads (whether you bring up new points/ideas or not) is not the right way to contribute.
I have to heartily disagree, and at the same time use your post to point out one of the problems I'm talking about. I make a post saying that we should up the quality of posts on Team Liquid and you post an accusation of me trying to abuse my being "e-famous" to post a thread? I was trying to look at the issue that Blizzard is approaching balance from the wrong direction using Terran as an example in that their issues in particular are not small numbers issues you cannot merely reduce an attack value by 2 and say FIXED. This issue is completely different and has a completely different bearing on the game than Lalush's thread, yes I saw it, yes I read it. What value does trying to start a flame war on a thread that was closed by moderators due to the discussion going completely off topic bring to the table? None, and for the record heres what was listed as why the thread was closed.
this thread has clearly deteriorated into a huge clusterfuck, with 20% actually commenting on the op, 20% feeling the need to chime in with 198263123 other perceived imbalances despite the fact that they obviously know abso-fucking-lutely nothing about this game, 20% going off tangent on god richard dawkins knows what, 20% citing some statistics without having any remote knowledge on what statistics actually are, and 20% of I dunno. yes these numbers are 100% scientifically proven and this thread is now closed. move along
Not mentioning any problems with the OP at all. Weren't you just talking about not pretending to be a moderator?
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i'd rather see people not contributing then all those gold league players contributing their "understanding" of the balance issues in 10 page threads.
and no i dont mean you, any thread that whines about T imba is a good thread.
:D
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This is a quandary I find myself in. I'm a user who's been a member since June and has 60 posts to my name but I've lurked since last year so I feel more a part of the community than I really am. Since making the jump from lurker to member I've tried my hardest to contribute, I read the commandments, I desperately wanted to uphold them and conduct my self by them while I'm on TL.
However I still feel like I've failed in contributing, the two threads I've started have been; 1) a write up against cheesing which should have gone in a blog and 2) a thread asking for help with my Terran play (and I'd like to thank vexx for sitting through an entire replay and commenting on it). Neither of those threads contributed much and I don't think my comments have been phenomenal either (though I haven't gotten banned yet so I must be doing something right).
I would love to eventually be able to help in the sc2 strategy section but let's face it, I'm a silver league player with out enough time or dedication or computing power to improve enough to be valued. I do what I can here and there but the majority if the time i feel like I'm stealing something by being here and not contributing.
I don't want to add to the clutter and I appreciate the people who have been here longer wanting to maintain quality so I don't want to start a lot of threads but at the same time I want to do my part and contribute. I guess for now until things smooth themselves out the best way I can contribute is by staying out of the way.
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On September 12 2010 15:35 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This is a quandary I find myself in. I'm a user who's been a member since June and has 60 posts to my name but I've lurked since last year so I feel more a part of the community than I really am. Since making the jump from lurker to member I've tried my hardest to contribute, I read the commandments, I desperately wanted to uphold them and conduct my self by them while I'm on TL.
However I still feel like I've failed in contributing, the two threads I've started have been; 1) a write up against cheesing which should have gone in a blog and 2) a thread asking for help with my Terran play (and I'd like to thank vexx for sitting through an entire replay and commenting on it). Neither of those threads contributed much and I don't think my comments have been phenomenal either (though I haven't gotten banned yet so I must be doing something right).
I would love to eventually be able to help in the sc2 strategy section but let's face it, I'm a silver league player with out enough time or dedication or computing power to improve enough to be valued. I do what I can here and there but the majority if the time i feel like I'm stealing something by being here and not contributing.
I don't want to add to the clutter and I appreciate the people who have been here longer wanting to maintain quality so I don't want to start a lot of threads but at the same time I want to do my part and contribute. I guess for now until things smooth themselves out the best way I can contribute is by staying out of the way.
The thing is you don't have to feel like you're "contributing" the mere fact of trying to bring quality posts to the table is contributing in of itself. Trying to give meaningful discussion, or helpful advice is contributing ie what Vexx did for you. And even if you're asking for help about your play in a public forum there will be other people with the same questions who might find your thread useful. So don't think you haven't contributed at all, the mere fact that you're worried about not contributing enough means you probably are doing fine.
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You don't just have to contribute by talking about Starcraft btw. You can write up some pretty awesome blogs (one example of many), create a thread about pretty awesome games, play in the best forum game on TL (and especially make a concerted effort to improve while you play).
Or you can be someone who actually live reports in the Live Report threads, or something.
Most of the people--apart from the staff--who I note as being solid contributors aren't people I know from Starcraft discussions. Part of that is that I don't really spend most of my time in SC discussions, but then TL isn't a site just about Starcraft either.
edit: And of course make the mods' jobs easier by reporting bad posts and threads if you've been here long enough!
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On September 12 2010 15:31 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2010 15:21 Nokarot wrote:It's certainly annoying the number of posters who would rather critique your ability to write, pretend to be moderators, etc etc, than post and contribute themselves (not even including the barely-more-positive side of things like "I agree" being a whole post.) If a post you've read is bad pr irrelevant, by virtue of somebody quoting it and saying "this guy made a stupid post, please delete mod, they've made a bad post themselves. To play devils advocate though, if I may.. Just because you're e-famous, I don't think by posting yet another TvZ imbalance thread, that said thread could be called contributing. Of course, you've contributed in many other ways- more than I- I just think that in some ways its a dead horse. It's a dead horse that needs addressing, but surely you can contribute without starting a shiny new thread so that everyone hears The Mighty Raelcun's OP as the headline. There's already an active 76 page thread on it. I realize everyone wants their opinions heard, but making duplicate threads (whether you bring up new points/ideas or not) is not the right way to contribute. I have to heartily disagree, and at the same time use your post to point out one of the problems I'm talking about. I make a post saying that we should up the quality of posts on Team Liquid and you post an accusation of me trying to abuse my being "e-famous" to post a thread? I was trying to look at the issue that Blizzard is approaching balance from the wrong direction using Terran as an example in that their issues in particular are not small numbers issues you cannot merely reduce an attack value by 2 and say FIXED. This issue is completely different and has a completely different bearing on the game than Lalush's thread, yes I saw it, yes I read it. What value does trying to start a flame war on a thread that was closed by moderators due to the discussion going completely off topic bring to the table? None, and for the record heres what was listed as why the thread was closed. this thread has clearly deteriorated into a huge clusterfuck, with 20% actually commenting on the op, 20% feeling the need to chime in with 198263123 other perceived imbalances despite the fact that they obviously know abso-fucking-lutely nothing about this game, 20% going off tangent on god richard dawkins knows what, 20% citing some statistics without having any remote knowledge on what statistics actually are, and 20% of I dunno. yes these numbers are 100% scientifically proven and this thread is now closed. move along Not mentioning any problems with the OP at all. Weren't you just talking about not pretending to be a moderator?
I steered clear of that thread so that I wouldn't be pretending to be a moderator, and in the first half of my post in this thread, I agreed with you. In the second half I played devils advocate, for the sake of asking a tough question to find the definition of "contributing" (in hopes to motivate discussion, not to flame.) Meanwhile you're here taking it personally, saying that I'm starting a flame war, and saying that I'm pretending to be a moderator.. Well, we could get in to this part even further, I forsee it'll just be "no u!" back and forth until we both realize that, by telling each other that we're either in or not in a flame war, we're making useless non-contributing posts in the process. If I've somehow offended you, I apologize. If I've somehow played e-police, then it was not my intention. If we could just drop this portion of the thread, lets move on to the rest. When I referred to you as e-famous that was meant as a compliment, not as suggesting you're an attention whore.
edit: oops I'm stupid on the rest of this post.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
You can always just contribute by posting better and setting a good example for newcomers.
Every little thing counts. By being a good poster, you're already contributing to the well being of the site.
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Those are some pretty good ideas crate  now I just have to go and have an adventure to write about lol. But seriously I think I will start a blog, after reading the OP it makes me want to contribute even more and unfourtunatly I haven't been around long enough to have a report button... grrr.
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@Nokarot you're entirely missing the point and making a fine example of my OP, go read the thread again never did I mention the matchup TvZ, every time I mentioned zerg in comparison to Terran I also compared protoss. It had nothing to do with the TvZ Balance Suggestions thread therefore it was a new thread. Beyond that I'm not going to comment on it any further, the point is it has nothing to do with this thread at all.
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I suppose that's true, and I admit I should have read it all. Truth be told, given the quality of the Sc2 forums nowadays, its hard to not assume everything isn't about TvZ.
I guess I'm out of line then, and yes, maybe a good example for this OP. For that, I forfeit. I do think the topic of Terran in general is a dead horse that you, along with a large majority of posters there, just will not stop beating though. Without a 76-page thread to link, though, my argument doesn't hold much merit  Sorry.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
submit to my will or be killed
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Give it 7-8 years to weed out the people who aren't serious about understanding SC2, and you'll probably have your old way of communicating back. Since at this point, hardly anybody understands SC2 (including Blizzard I'd say, there are alot of balance changes to come + 2 expansions planned), you're bound to end up with less insightful threads. It just comes down to the fact that we're all newbies, and newbies are easily frustrated because they don't understand what they are doing wrong.
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On September 12 2010 16:22 Dingotrold wrote:
Give it 7-8 years to weed out the people who aren't serious about understanding SC2, and you'll probably have your old way of communicating back. Since at this point, hardly anybody understands SC2 (including Blizzard I'd say, there are alot of balance changes to come + 2 expansions planned), you're bound to end up with less insightful threads. It just comes down to the fact that we're all newbies, and newbies are easily frustrated because they don't understand what they are doing wrong.
I dislike this answer, though I see the reasoning behind it -.- Team Liquid was a good website back in 2003 when I joined it (on my first account and didn't know about the change your name feature so made a new one 5 years later) and Starcraft was not super old yet. It had developed yes but it was still young in terms of how far it had come. Go look up vods from 2003 you'll see what I mean, I think we can do better and ultimately it's not the mods fault because they're being overwhelmed it's the users who need to step up to the plate.
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My problem is not with post count, but with the quality of contribution. I've seen <50 post guys make amazing new articles, while 1000 count posters keep shitting out the same threads.
I've had a number of contribution ideas in the past, just small articles to provoke some thought etc, but a lot of them get scrapped because I never think they're good enough for TL. I rather I post a topic of superb quality that gets some recognition because then I know my contribution meant something.
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EPT
