|
So who else is rather disappointed by the quality of GSL?
Having watched a BW professional scene since '07, I've had a lot of respect for progamers who are just unbelievably skilled and many times those gamers showed me an amazement that hooked me to play bw.
Often times, I've had geek chills from plays that I cannot execute, build orders that are crystal crisp, and ceremonies that are enjoyable to watch after the match. Players seemed to be more enthusiastic and games were by far more entertaining. In addition, there were always a theme involved around different periods, such as 6 dragons of protoss, ssang-park zerg, lee ssang generation, bisu-stork domination, etc.
Watching GSL, the future seems rather bleak. I'm a terran user myself and I have to admit terran is broken. Moreover, I haven't seen any plays that I myself cannot execute (except for inca’s and tester’s force field micro). Build orders are all over the place, more free-style-ish. It seems like terran can execute ANY build order they would like and it's the other races that have to adapt to near perfect level or they die. A lot of GSL players don’t have a clue about the game too. They are like “let me see if this works, if not, oh WELLZ I AIN’T MAD.”
The battles are not dynamic. It occurs so fast and once one side loses, it’s over for him (most of the time). In starcraft bw it was possible for player who lost a major battle to come back with creative play and overwhelming macro abilities. In sc2, it’s near impossible to lose a major battle and come back. So after anticipation of big macro games where players have 3-4 bases, if players prematurely engage in battle and one side lose, the game’s over. How anticlimatic is that?
Casters sometimes get on my nerves too. They say stuff that they themselves don’t know how it works. For example, tasteless keeps saying 1/1/1 build is so called “Tasteless build.” I believe it was originally created by JustFakeWerra. It’s ridiculous how he credits that build as if it was originally created by other person. Everybody knows marine, raven (point defense drone), banshee, tanks are over powered vs protoss. I used that to get top 200 in NA server and I never knew tasteless even played terran. In addition, I think it’s ridiculous to say how they say players are playing “bad,” when they admittedly acknowledge game is premature and anything can be good or bad (or is it that whatever they think good is good? No.). Please, drop the negatives. Try to see it from the player’s perspective, NOT yours. Although it sounds contradictory since I bashed player’s bad quality of games in above paragraph, it just doesn’t touch well with me when casters say negative things because apparently players playing are better than them.
I think my post was rather disorganized but I hope I got my message across.
 
|
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement.
regarding professionalism, Tasteless and Artosis are definitely more relaxed because they know their bosses aren't looking over their shoulders to check to see what they're saying on stream. Some people like that, some people don't. Reminds me a bit of scrappy fighting game streams.
|
Comparing the OSL final with the IEM germany final, BW >>>>>>>>>> SC2 in its current state.
I feel blizz did a really good job with SC2 in regards to the design and gameplay but a lot of their balance decisions are questionable.
|
The Tasteless build was a joke. I'm not sure if that makes him come across as a better caster though. But you have to understand some things. First these are NOT progamers. Some may have been B team BW players, or retired players, but most of these guys have never gamed professionally. Also it's the 1st round. There are going to be some one sided match ups. You see Jaedong rofl stomp some people in the first rounds of tournaments. Finally the point of commentators is that they COMMENT on what the players are doing. If a player plays badly, then commentators can point that out. Have you ever watched early BW? The play there is spectacularly bad compared to modern play, so just be patient and give players some time to practice.
|
read this again.... find the mistakes...
(hint: sc2 is just over 1 month old - compared to 12 years bw)
and for some other stuff in there: i think you take stuff to seriouse like the "tastless build" thing.
|
watch sc2 instead, much better game
|
You're comparing progamers to people who are nowhere near progaming status. I don't really see the point.
|
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On September 12 2010 02:30 LOLWHATALOSER wrote:
watch sc2 instead, much better game
LOLWHATALOSER....
j/k..
sometimes i feel like i hate sc2 more for the fact the trouble blizzards been causing BW...well was also kinda annoyed at the hype it built up too and all the new members on TL back then..
anyway i also watched a bit of GSL the past few days because i was curious ( never watched any beta streams or followed sc2 much before) and it seemed like many of the games ended like how OP said too.
just my random comment though since i don't watch sc2 that much.
|
I do agree with you that sc2 so far has not been the quality of most other competitive, and even semi-competitive games. I almost fall asleep whenever I watch a game where both players play standard. The only thing worth watching is seeing players innovate and try out new strategies and seeing the opponent adapt to it. Right now sc2 may seem boring, but I still think it has potential. Right now the best sc2 players are just b-teamers in scbw, so I didn't expect extremely high level play and innovation to begin with. Once bw pro gamer start moving over, things will pick up a lot.
The 1/1/1 build isn't a single build, it's just the idea of getting one of each unit producing structure. There are a lot of variations of it with different timings. The Tasteless build is not the 1/1/1 itself, it's one variation.
When they say a player is playing bad, most of the time they are right. Some mistakes are obviously mistakes and not obscure play.
|
I'm the biggest Tasteless fanboy in the history of the world and even I'm disappointed with his SC2 knowledge.
x.x maybe its just cuz I watched him when I knew nothing about BW either, but I feel like he understood that game better.
|
You're not dissapointed with the GSL, you're dissapointed with SC2. Fine, so be it, all these things has been stated a million times. If you prefer BW, then play that. I realize this is your blog, but the amount of BW players being butthurt is getting quite silly. Just play whatever game you want to play.
|
nah not disappointed
scbw and sc2 have different styles, if you want to watch scbw, go ahead, its a great game and i like watching top players play
lately im preferring sc2 but thats probably because im also playing it
imo both are really fun to watch
i do think sometimes that the observers are missing too much stuff, but ofcourse they are new at this too
about commentating Tasteless was a little rusty the first 2-3 days but hes getting a lot better already
|
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On September 12 2010 02:44 gillon wrote:
You're not dissapointed with the GSL, you're dissapointed with SC2. Fine, so be it, all these things has been stated a million times. If you prefer BW, then play that. I realize this is your blog, but the amount of BW players being butthurt is getting quite silly. Just play whatever game you want to play.
wtf man can someone not even voice his disappointment of the game?
|
The only series so far that I've watched that was TRULY entertaining was TLO vs Losira.
That was back and forth fun.
Don't see it often though
|
I'd agree that so far, the SC2 games haven't been all that thrilling. It's easy to forget, though, that SC2 is a really really new game. Brood War took years to get to the place it's at now, so I think it's a bit premature to give up on SC2 yet.
|
On September 12 2010 02:29 ohN wrote:
Comparing the OSL final with the IEM germany final, BW >>>>>>>>>> SC2 in its current state.
I feel blizz did a really good job with SC2 in regards to the design and gameplay but a lot of their balance decisions are questionable.
Haha I rather think it's the other way, their design decisions make it crappy to watch.
Some examples?
-Adding strong T1.5 units which can end games quickly and limit the amount of possible tactics
-High Air-Ground damage on low tech levels (Banshee/Voidray) which can end a game easily. Especially Voidray, one voidray can end a game in a flash. This prohibits many tactics.
-Unspectacular micro compared to Vultures/Lurkers and other units with high damage output skills (Lurker needs burrow so they have to use a skill to attack). Micro is mostly beeing cut down to positioning, hit and run and focus fire. That's NOT spectacular.
-Zerg became kinda one-dimensional less complex race with less possibilities
-Low collision sizes make micro less spectacular once again and make battles end in no time, that's not nice to watch. The reason simply is that more units can move into attack position faster, so rather than 40% of each armies fighting and 60% beeing blocked (makes it a long fight), every unit can attack at the same time and battles end in a few seconds.
However, I specifically like the GSL! They have two good commentators, offer a free stream and show partially really good matches and players. Of course we cannot expect them to be way better than us already, since the game is too young for that... The progamers have to learn as well.
I think everything which makes GSL worse than Broodwar are Blizzards crappy design decisions.
|
I'm not very far through watching the GSL, but I hope that once I'm caught up I'll have nicer things to say. And definitely you can't expect great matches in the round of 64, before the wheat is separated from the chaff... we really do have high standards lol. We've been spoiled in this community~
|
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax
|
On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax
I agree with this, although at the same time I feel that SC2 has some design problems that should be fixed. Namely the ridiculous amount of damage that units, especially terran units, deal out right now, and the poor design of zerg in general. Good thing we have 2 expansions down the line.
|
On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax At least back in 2000 Boxer's play was impressive, even if it was still heavily flawed. Right now it's very hard to be impressed watching sc2 games =/
|
On September 12 2010 03:42 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax At least back in 2000 Boxer's play was impressive, even if it was still heavily flawed. Right now it's very hard to be impressed watching sc2 games =/
yes there is.
cattlebruisers, cool force fields, awesome fungal growths, marine micro. there's lots to look at.
|
well in some ways the game plays itself  auto-surround, anyone?
my wife walked by my computer while I was watching GSL and said she liked the graphics better than BW, though
|
wait you are comparing 07 bw to sc2 one month after release? rofl. what a joke, it took bw years and years and years to get to the point where you hopped on board, same with sc2. don't worry, before long you will be drooling over sc2 players just as much as you apparently did over bw players.
annoying blog post imo. i see way too much, waaaah sc2 isn't as good, players aren't as good, blah blah. no shit. give it another decade.
|
I think to a lot of people, there's nothing you can say that'll convince them that SC2 has a chance at being exciting to watch. Any deviation from BW at all would likely be targeted as "removing skill" or making the game "less interesting" to these particular people. That's sad to say, but I think that's the case. Anyway, I suggest keeping an open mind to SC2, and again, as Xeris already pointed out, ignoring how bad people are right now. I'm personally waiting for people to develop personal styles, like Leta, Bisu, and so many others did in BW. For example, I really like IntoTheRainbow/HopeTorture's banshee play.
|
A lot of SC2 games are very disappointing/boring at the moment, but most people just aren't very good. I don't think this is/was much different in BW though - only that the skill ceiling and average skill has risen tons in the 12 years BW has been played.
Few and far between in several of the tournaments have been great games between current top players which give me hope for the future of Sc2(TLO v Tester and Tester v Intotherainbow from KOTB, Socke v Cauthonluck? from MLG, Dimaga v Tarsons from IEM are some of the first series that come to mind).
Now none of that is saying that a couple balance changes or the expansions won't help, but I feel even in its current form it has a lot of potential.
|
with BW, as a fan watching the game you know what to expect. almost nothing surprises you. the paths are almost set from the start of the game.
with SC2 since no one knows what wins quite yet, build orders are all over the place. as a fan you don't know what's going to happen, you don't know when they're going to transition to something else, or when something else would win. so all we can watch for now is cute tricks.
|
Why should a bunch of no-name amateurs (with some exceptions, of course) battling it out in a brand new game be as exciting as professional legends who play clashing in BW, which has been happening for years? Frankly, you'd be crazy to expect it to be.
|
"It's only Beta"
"The game just came out"
"It's only been 2 months"
"Well it's the first expansion"
"Wait for the second expansion"
"Dude all 3 games have only been out a little while."
"Brood War had 10 years, the game's only had 5 years to develop."
Anyways, I would say whether this game can be "saved" all depends on Blizzard's first expansion. I think a lot of people have the same doubts and feelings you have, they just have faith in Blizzard to fix them by the time the trilogy is complete.
|
On September 12 2010 02:39 mOnion wrote:
I'm the biggest Tasteless fanboy in the history of the world and even I'm disappointed with his SC2 knowledge.
x.x maybe its just cuz I watched him when I knew nothing about BW either, but I feel like he understood that game better.
Actually not a lot better, that's why I've always had a problem with his casts. That's why as soon as Artosis started casting I couldn't enjoy anyone else as much.
|
Every time I watch ogsinca vs sengcunwerra on lost temple my pants get happy. I'm content just from that game alone
|
if Tester's force fields didn't make you shit a brick iuno wassup
Happily watching @ 5 AM every day okok?
Plus I get to steal builds ~~
|
On September 12 2010 05:36 PokePill wrote:
"It's only Beta"
"The game just came out"
"It's only been 2 months"
"Well it's the first expansion"
"Wait for the second expansion"
"Dude all 3 games have only been out a little while."
"Brood War had 10 years, the game's only had 5 years to develop."
Anyways, I would say whether this game can be "saved" all depends on Blizzard's first expansion. I think a lot of people have the same doubts and feelings you have, they just have faith in Blizzard to fix them by the time the trilogy is complete.
It doesn't need to be saved yet, because even though the balance might be a bit off, what you're trying to say (people using the time the game is out as an "excuse") is just a valid fact, and it will be valid for quite some time to come.
It's not some kind of excuse like many of you guys perceive it as. You can't expect people to understand a game fully in 3 month or even 6 month. There have been plays already where you could see what is possible in the game, so just try to enjoy the development.
|
give sc2 a few years. I don't think sc2 is ready to replace BW yet, but I'm slowly coming round to it being a matter of when, not if.
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I think I a can relate to OP's position, and also think Xeris' claims are valid.
But it doesnt change the fact that, as a spectator, sc2 elicits emotions and reactions more akin to warcraft3 than starcraft 2 in terms of fan experience.
|
On September 12 2010 06:48 KawaiiRice wrote:
if Tester's force fields didn't make you shit a brick iuno wassup
Happily watching @ 5 AM every day okok?
Plus I get to steal builds ~~
(except for inca’s and tester’s force field micro). -> dat's what i said.
|
maybe in a year or 2 when everyone doesnt suck at SC2 it might be fun to watch.
until then im not wasting my time with it. keep playing/watching as much bw as possible while it's still around.
|
|
|
What? Did you not just watch the OSL final? Where finally Brood war was basically shown to be broken?
Osl final spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +Jaedong has to cheese every game because flash is unbeatable/imba end game, and that protoss is clearly the underpowered race in BW. This OSL basically proved BW is broken, jeadong and flash play the game near enough to perfect(grated not perfect but near enough) to prove that terran end game is basically imbalanced and that a zergs only chance against a player as good as flash is to stop him 14 cc'ing, plus its broken that a failed 4 pool puts you behind but a failed bunker rush puts you ahead. Also jaedong and flash have proved that the lack of early scouting in sc1 basically makes it a dice roll as you have no idea if the opponent is cheesing and some cheeses/openers beat others flat out, so there's an element of randomness in it.
The only reason that that quality of games arn't as good is because the standard is lower, i mean Idra was a good B-teamer at best at a game he'd been practicing for years, with practice partners who were better than him who could teach him and experienced coaches, in sc2 hes at least a A teamer if not S class atm despite the fact he's newer to sc2 and has no-one good to practice with and no experienced coaches to help coach him. I don't think people realize that it's the quality of players rather than the game itself, but i will say the game ofc is not perfect, but after the 2 expansions the game should be at least as complex as broodwar and as fun to watch.
|
Yeah, sc1 is a much better spectator sport, and the commentators are much better. That one female commentator got on my nerves so much
|
On September 12 2010 03:54 s.a.y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 03:42 Tsagacity wrote:On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax At least back in 2000 Boxer's play was impressive, even if it was still heavily flawed. Right now it's very hard to be impressed watching sc2 games =/ yes there is. That doesn't even make sense if you're actually replying to me. In regards to things like force field and fungal, they are significantly less impressive considering how easy it is to do with smart cast.
|
On September 12 2010 08:41 UdderChaos wrote:What? Did you not just watch the OSL final? Where finally Brood war was basically shown to be broken? Osl final spoilers: + Show Spoiler +Jaedong has to cheese every game because flash is unbeatable/imba end game, and that protoss is clearly the underpowered race in BW. This OSL basically proved BW is broken, jeadong and flash play the game near enough to perfect(grated not perfect but near enough) to prove that terran end game is basically imbalanced and that a zergs only chance against a player as good as flash is to stop him 14 cc'ing, plus its broken that a failed 4 pool puts you behind but a failed bunker rush puts you ahead. Also jaedong and flash have proved that the lack of early scouting in sc1 basically makes it a dice roll as you have no idea if the opponent is cheesing and some cheeses/openers beat others flat out, so there's an element of randomness in it. The only reason that that quality of games arn't as good is because the standard is lower, i mean Idra was a good B-teamer at best at a game he'd been practicing for years, with practice partners who were better than him who could teach him and experienced coaches, in sc2 hes at least a A teamer if not S class atm despite the fact he's newer to sc2 and has no-one good to practice with and no experienced coaches to help coach him. I don't think people realize that it's the quality of players rather than the game itself, but i will say the game ofc is not perfect, but after the 2 expansions the game should be at least as complex as broodwar and as fun to watch.
Not gonna discuss that here but that's just completely wrong on so many levels I wouldn't even know when to start.
|
back in the beginning of progaming bw, it was just like this
|
On September 12 2010 03:42 Tsagacity wrote:
At least back in 2000 Boxer's play was impressive, even if it was still heavily flawed. Right now it's very hard to be impressed watching sc2 games =/
On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax
THIS. Every time there is a "SC2 matches disappointment" thread, I always say something similar to Xeris. SC2 is still a young game, but the progress of leagues, tournaments, players, etc is growing at a steady rate at least. Too many people are spoiled by BW because it has become a legendary old game with a great history of players and matches. SC2 hasn't even gotten a big gameplay patch (soon to be building time on reapers/zealots/etc) yet besides minor things for single player or just hardware issues.
I have fun watching SC2 matches and it may not be as impressive as BW yet, but the game's balance is good so far. The only thing that annoys me is the whole ball vs ball army movement, which looks ridiculous and funny.
|
On September 12 2010 08:41 UdderChaos wrote:
What? Did you not just watch the OSL final? Where finally Brood war was basically shown to be broken?
Wow. Just wow. You sir, should be stopped.
Give SC2 some time. Why the rush? Right now, games are a bit eh-ish though i agree.
|
5003 Posts
I honestly think SC2 is boring because of the maps and the ridiculously short rush distances.
My favorite part about BW was the map control and splitting the maps, and using economic harass to end the game -- SC2 seems to have a lot less of that, and, even if it does have it, it's not as exciting for some reason. It's not as... insane multitasking wise on BW? I guess that's because the players skill levels in SC2 are a lot lower for now.
Either way, there's a long way to go, imo, before SC2 even becomes watchable before my eyes. But honestly I'm giving SC2 a lot less time than BW -- it's not like our knowledge of how to play an RTS, knowledge of what makes BW exciting has been forgotten and people should, at least, adapt faster.
|
On September 12 2010 09:36 Milkis wrote:
I honestly think SC2 is boring because of the maps and the ridiculously short rush distances.
My favorite part about BW was the map control and splitting the maps, and using economic harass to end the game -- SC2 seems to have a lot less of that, and, even if it does have it, it's not as exciting for some reason. It's not as... insane multitasking wise on BW? I guess that's because the players skill levels in SC2 are a lot lower for now.
Either way, there's a long way to go, imo, before SC2 even becomes watchable before my eyes. But honestly I'm giving SC2 a lot less time than BW -- it's not like our knowledge of how to play an RTS, knowledge of what makes BW exciting has been forgotten and people should, at least, adapt faster.
I agree greatly with all points. I'm giving it time, but the bar and precedence is there, it would be disappointing to not make use of over a years of rts progaming excellence.
Aside from map control play, small maps makes big ball too good (small map+mbs/autorally makes reinforcing easy). If you try cute guerilla tactics, you split your force, and they will have a bigger ball at your front door in no time. This favors ball v ball, or turtle v ball a lot, probably a bit oversimplified but generally is the trend I see.
|
On September 12 2010 09:36 Milkis wrote:
I honestly think SC2 is boring because of the maps and the ridiculously short rush distances.
My favorite part about BW was the map control and splitting the maps, and using economic harass to end the game -- SC2 seems to have a lot less of that, and, even if it does have it, it's not as exciting for some reason. It's not as... insane multitasking wise on BW? I guess that's because the players skill levels in SC2 are a lot lower for now.
Either way, there's a long way to go, imo, before SC2 even becomes watchable before my eyes. But honestly I'm giving SC2 a lot less time than BW -- it's not like our knowledge of how to play an RTS, knowledge of what makes BW exciting has been forgotten and people should, at least, adapt faster.
On September 12 2010 03:15 teekesselchen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 02:29 ohN wrote:
Comparing the OSL final with the IEM germany final, BW >>>>>>>>>> SC2 in its current state.
I feel blizz did a really good job with SC2 in regards to the design and gameplay but a lot of their balance decisions are questionable. Haha I rather think it's the other way, their design decisions make it crappy to watch. Some examples? -Adding strong T1.5 units which can end games quickly and limit the amount of possible tactics -High Air-Ground damage on low tech levels (Banshee/Voidray) which can end a game easily. Especially Voidray, one voidray can end a game in a flash. This prohibits many tactics. -Unspectacular micro compared to Vultures/Lurkers and other units with high damage output skills (Lurker needs burrow so they have to use a skill to attack). Micro is mostly beeing cut down to positioning, hit and run and focus fire. That's NOT spectacular. -Zerg became kinda one-dimensional less complex race with less possibilities -Low collision sizes make micro less spectacular once again and make battles end in no time, that's not nice to watch. The reason simply is that more units can move into attack position faster, so rather than 40% of each armies fighting and 60% beeing blocked (makes it a long fight), every unit can attack at the same time and battles end in a few seconds.
these posts sum up a lot of what makes SC2 such a bad spectator sport to me. I feel like besides a little harass in the beginning, after the 1st big battle 80% of the time the winner of that wins the game (either immediately or shortly after). There's no high ground advantage so the defender has very little advantage (if at all), outmacroing never really happens because macro is so easy that both players macro perfectly at all times, and when you combine that with the small maps and fast rush distances with easy rallies, I've rarely even seen games where a player loses the 1st major engagement and doesn't lose the whole game.
maybe eventually there will be micro that is exciting in the game (and allows a player to come back from a disadvantage with good micro) and the maps won't be as shitty, but I feel like there are just some fundamental flaws (macro too easily master-able and no advantage for defender with high ground mainly, as well as many points named by teekesselchen) that will never allow SC2 to be a very good spectator sport compared to BW.
However, I specifically like the GSL! They have two good commentators, offer a free stream and show partially really good matches and players. Of course we cannot expect them to be way better than us already, since the game is too young for that... The progamers have to learn as well.
I think everything which makes GSL worse than Broodwar are Blizzards crappy design decisions.
how can you list "offers a free stream" as a good thing? every stream is free!
|
On September 12 2010 02:18 ziz wrote:
So who else is rather disappointed by the quality of GSL?
In addition, I think it’s ridiculous to say how they say players are playing “bad,” when they admittedly acknowledge game is premature and anything can be good or bad (or is it that whatever they think good is good? No.).
Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me!
Let's not forget that the Korean practice method involves practicing the ever-loving crap out of a strategy. This works best with standard strategies. I'm personally tired of the casters saying "this build is standard". No, it's just popular, but there are many other variations that are just the same, if not better, than the one being used. I think it will be months before true standards emerge.
For good BW go watch the OSL finals. I think you'll find what you're missing there...
|
I think it's ridiculous to compare SC2's progaming scene now to BW's progaming scene now. Yea, the games might not be as spectacular or as crisp as the BW pro games, however, BW pros had 10 years of history, building upon previous pro gamers over time to get to where they are now. SC2 is a baby compared to BW. To a degree, the skillset learned from BW can be translated to SC2, but there's so many new shit they have to get used to, it'll inevitably take time to merge those two mechanics together.
And to the people that say the things now aren't as "smart" or "unique" as the plays of the early 2000 players (aka. Boxer), well you know why? Because you guys are so used to the level of top notch BW players. Anything "new" played in SC2 will seem tame compared to it. You need to give SC2 time and give the players time to establish and perfect their BOs and mechanics. However, maybe SC2 games will never excite you as much as BW games did, just for the simple fact that BW did it first.
|
Watching cool aka fruitseller play against that protoss on scrapstation and micro his lings incredibly definitely gave me geek chills. All I have to say is give the scene time.
|
5003 Posts
On September 12 2010 10:11 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 02:18 ziz wrote:
So who else is rather disappointed by the quality of GSL?
In addition, I think it’s ridiculous to say how they say players are playing “bad,” when they admittedly acknowledge game is premature and anything can be good or bad (or is it that whatever they think good is good? No.). Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me! Let's not forget that the Korean practice method involves practicing the ever-loving crap out of a strategy. This works best with standard strategies. I'm personally tired of the casters saying "this build is standard". No, it's just popular, but there are many other variations that are just the same, if not better, than the one being used. I think it will be months before true standards emerge. For good BW go watch the OSL finals. I think you'll find what you're missing there...
How are you so certain Koreans are practicing like this for SC2?
Remember, you may hear that a lot, but I'm sure there's a bit more variation than what was implied in posts regarding korean practice regime as implied.
|
in 2007 when you started watching BW, realize it had had over 7 years to evolve and develop
sc2 hasn't even been out a year
if you're disappointed, you did that to yourself with unrealistically high expectations mr gatsby
|
BW has been around for 12 years. SC2 1 month. So why does Blizzard balance SC2 like it has been out for 12 years? Much of the game hasn't been figured out, but when the balance starts to shift to a certain race, it's "OH SHIT THE GAME IS IMBALANCED WE GOTTA FIX THIS"... no one is challenged to think outside the box when Blizzard tries to keep "standard play" balanced. It seems that because of Blizzard's decisions, the style of play around now is going to be around for a LONG time.
|
On September 12 2010 02:25 Delerium wrote:
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement.
I know it's hard to tell because SC2 is still so new but it seems like there's absolutely no defender's advantage at all, in terms of units that can be used defensively, and no high ground advantage. That's a big reason I think why games end immediately after one person gains a slight advantage or something goes wrong. Like I said, it might be because it's new still, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually the case.
|
On September 12 2010 11:13 Loser777 wrote:
BW has been around for 12 years. SC2 1 month. So why does Blizzard balance SC2 like it has been out for 12 years? Much of the game hasn't been figured out, but when the balance starts to shift to a certain race, it's "OH SHIT THE GAME IS IMBALANCED WE GOTTA FIX THIS"... no one is challenged to think outside the box when Blizzard tries to keep "standard play" balanced. It seems that because of Blizzard's decisions, the style of play around now is going to be around for a LONG time.
this
On September 12 2010 11:37 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 02:25 Delerium wrote:
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement. I know it's hard to tell because SC2 is still so new but it seems like there's absolutely no defender's advantage at all, in terms of units that can be used defensively, and no high ground advantage. That's a big reason I think why games end immediately after one person gains a slight advantage or something goes wrong. Like I said, it might be because it's new still, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually the case.
and this.
I really dislike Blizzard's balancing-for-competition philosophy ever since they hit a home-run with WoW. Not only are they favoring casuals over professionals, they are too sensitive and overreactive. They said they were going to fix sc2 ultralisks to make them not-useless and instead they... nerfed them? Okay. Great. I saw this same kind of schizophrenia in WoW back when they were trying to make arena into the next big e-sport, because one of their bosses could smell the money in Korea that Starcraft was generating. They're impatient and everything seems rushed. They aren't waiting for the players, aka the millions of game testers they have around the world, to find the problems (read: establish with trends) with balance in the game so they can be fixed for high-level competition.
|
On September 12 2010 12:26 Delerium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:13 Loser777 wrote:
BW has been around for 12 years. SC2 1 month. So why does Blizzard balance SC2 like it has been out for 12 years? Much of the game hasn't been figured out, but when the balance starts to shift to a certain race, it's "OH SHIT THE GAME IS IMBALANCED WE GOTTA FIX THIS"... no one is challenged to think outside the box when Blizzard tries to keep "standard play" balanced. It seems that because of Blizzard's decisions, the style of play around now is going to be around for a LONG time. this Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:37 Angra wrote:On September 12 2010 02:25 Delerium wrote:
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement. I know it's hard to tell because SC2 is still so new but it seems like there's absolutely no defender's advantage at all, in terms of units that can be used defensively, and no high ground advantage. That's a big reason I think why games end immediately after one person gains a slight advantage or something goes wrong. Like I said, it might be because it's new still, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually the case. and this. I really dislike Blizzard's balancing-for-competition philosophy ever since they hit a home-run with WoW. Not only are they favoring casuals over professionals, they are too sensitive and overreactive. They said they were going to fix sc2 ultralisks to make them not-useless and instead they... nerfed them? Okay. Great. I saw this same kind of schizophrenia in WoW back when they were trying to make arena into the next big e-sport, because one of their bosses could smell the money in Korea that Starcraft was generating. They're impatient and everything seems rushed. They aren't waiting for the players, aka the millions of game testers they have around the world, to find the problems (read: establish with trends) with balance in the game so they can be fixed for high-level competition.
I don't know what you are talking about, there hasn't been a single balance patch since retail.
|
On September 12 2010 02:35 Chairman Ray wrote:
I do agree with you that sc2 so far has not been the quality of most other competitive, and even semi-competitive games. I almost fall asleep whenever I watch a game where both players play standard. The only thing worth watching is seeing players innovate and try out new strategies and seeing the opponent adapt to it. Right now sc2 may seem boring, but I still think it has potential. Right now the best sc2 players are just b-teamers in scbw, so I didn't expect extremely high level play and innovation to begin with. Once bw pro gamer start moving over, things will pick up a lot.
The 1/1/1 build isn't a single build, it's just the idea of getting one of each unit producing structure. There are a lot of variations of it with different timings. The Tasteless build is not the 1/1/1 itself, it's one variation.
When they say a player is playing bad, most of the time they are right. Some mistakes are obviously mistakes and not obscure play.
a variation he just happened to stumble upon after playing me 3 times in beta tvp. *scratches my chin, WONDER HOW HE CAME UP WITH THE "TASTELESS BUILD"
|
Give it time. Game's been on for weeks, not years.
|
On September 12 2010 12:48 atarianimo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:26 Delerium wrote:On September 12 2010 11:13 Loser777 wrote:
BW has been around for 12 years. SC2 1 month. So why does Blizzard balance SC2 like it has been out for 12 years? Much of the game hasn't been figured out, but when the balance starts to shift to a certain race, it's "OH SHIT THE GAME IS IMBALANCED WE GOTTA FIX THIS"... no one is challenged to think outside the box when Blizzard tries to keep "standard play" balanced. It seems that because of Blizzard's decisions, the style of play around now is going to be around for a LONG time. this On September 12 2010 11:37 Angra wrote:On September 12 2010 02:25 Delerium wrote:
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement. I know it's hard to tell because SC2 is still so new but it seems like there's absolutely no defender's advantage at all, in terms of units that can be used defensively, and no high ground advantage. That's a big reason I think why games end immediately after one person gains a slight advantage or something goes wrong. Like I said, it might be because it's new still, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually the case. and this. I really dislike Blizzard's balancing-for-competition philosophy ever since they hit a home-run with WoW. Not only are they favoring casuals over professionals, they are too sensitive and overreactive. They said they were going to fix sc2 ultralisks to make them not-useless and instead they... nerfed them? Okay. Great. I saw this same kind of schizophrenia in WoW back when they were trying to make arena into the next big e-sport, because one of their bosses could smell the money in Korea that Starcraft was generating. They're impatient and everything seems rushed. They aren't waiting for the players, aka the millions of game testers they have around the world, to find the problems (read: establish with trends) with balance in the game so they can be fixed for high-level competition. I don't know what you are talking about, there hasn't been a single balance patch since retail.
that's true, and that is a good counter-point. I was reacting only to changes in the beta.
it's pedantic, but I come from a different school of thought that says the alpha is when you make big changes. a beta should be almost done. you release it to users for a beta test, because you're testing it for bugs... you need to make sure it's ready for release, you don't want bugs to slip through.
but that's also from an era when software was shipped finished, and patches didn't change the game, they only fixed bugs. active development is the standard now..
|
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
|
The scene has foreigners yo
|
The skill ceiling is too low to allow players to do anything impressive. Smart-cast, MBS, auto-surround anyone?
|
konadora
Singapore66159 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:36 Hesmyrr wrote:
The scene has foreigners yo
lol
|
On September 12 2010 13:30 Ideas wrote:
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
Because a lot of us play it and want to see what other builds are being developed in other areas of the world. It may not be up to BW standards yet, but I still enjoy watching it. It will get better as time goes on and when they make the rest of the expansions. Every new RTS starts out like this, baby steps to see what you can and cannot get away with.
Hopefully Blizzard will expand the map pool to larger maps as the GSL seasons progress, keeping the maps to what they are now is just to help out the newer people get used to the game. All of the Ladder maps are considered small with the odd medium and large on the team and ffa maps right now.
|
On September 12 2010 13:30 Ideas wrote:
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
I don't think people saying that it will get better are saying it's bad right now.
|
Starcraft 2 easily has the potential to become much better than Brood War, and is still easily on track to do so.
In terms of gameplay some things need to be fixed:
- Nearly everygame being decided by one battle. (1. units too strong eg. marauder, 2. warp gate reinforcement doesnt let the other player recover quick enough).
- Crap map pool, the maps are so tiny.
|
On September 12 2010 13:30 Ideas wrote:
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
I'm one of the people saying give it time. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it now.
In my opinion, the biggest factor limiting the games excitement (and let's be clear, I think the game is really fucking exciting) is the fact that all the true BW pros are still playing BW.
In the coming months, more and more BW pros will make the switch. Once they do, and once they become acclimated to the game, we're going to really start seeing truly polished, innovative play.
|
On September 12 2010 13:58 Highways wrote:
Starcraft 2 easily has the potential to become much better than Brood War, and is still easily on track to do so.
Good luck becoming "easily much better" than the greatest RTS of all time. 
To me, it would be pretty awesome if it could end up being nearly as fun and exciting to watch for purely gameplay and "competitive-atmosphere"-related reasons. Most of the (relative) enjoyment I'm getting these days from watching SC2 (and especially the GSL) is: 1) the general excitement around it, 2) the "fresh and new" factor, 3) the english-speaking casters hyping things up and all. These things are all extremely superficial though.
The real test will be after the two extensions are released, because by then the maps will be better and bigger, the overall skill level way higher and the gameplay refined, while at the same time all that superficial stuff will have worn down. Then we will see. But for now it doesn't really compare to BW at all (imo).
|
The problem I have with the "SC2 is still new, BW play was bad back in the day too" argument is that even watching low level play in BW is miles more exciting than anything I have seen in SC2.
Sure Boxer can't compete with Jaedong or Flash these days. It doesn't stop his old games from being exciting and fun to watch. I tune in to boesthius' BW stream fairly often just to enjoy watching him play. Sure he will probably never be in an OSL final or anything but it is still far more exciting to watch him play other "low level" players than it has been watching any GSL/ESL/MLG game.
Starcraft 2 has problems. People are either too concerned with balance or are too blinded by the hope it will somehow get better by itself to see the real issues.
Blizzard needs to be aware that:
- There are still problems with graphics in terms of visibility and clairity.
- The sounds of most units need a lot of work.
- They need to tighten up unit control and take away things like auto-repair, overkill prevention and target priority.
- The maps need a lot of work and we need systems in place that lets the community decide what maps should be played in each ladder season.
- LAN is a must if tournaments are going to be taken seriously. It is also a must to let players practice with tournament latency so they can micro properly. Lag mid game and unavoidable latency just isn't acceptable.
- Battle.net needs better spectator and general tournament support. Think in terms of HLTV and having an actual tournament interface in battle.net. View tournaments, sign up, see who's winning and of course spectating. These are the kinds of features I was expecting a game released in 2010 with esports in mind to have.
In the grand scheme of things balance is such a minor issue it's not funny. It still amuses me how much people get worked up over it. These problems will not be fixed unless Blizzard realises how important they are BEFORE people lose all interest in the game.
|
On September 12 2010 13:30 Ideas wrote:
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
Look when i say give it some time i expect maps and patches to fix things, and if they don't: Thanks for the ride. I never expected another Brood War. To be honest, whenever i watch Brood War now and go play Starcraft 2 it makes me...for the lack of better words...a bit sad.
You can't have maps like Steps of War and then expect anything good out of it. The sheer shitness of design that goes into some Blizzard maps is beyond me. Maps with spots where one tank can hit two expansion lol-yes-hellz-to-the-no-motherfucker! I just hope we find a way to elude Blizzard maps because i'm so bored by them.
The one-punch-games syndrome right now is really problematic. It's a mixture between shit maps, bad scouting possibilities for all races and really bad players that get away with stuff because there are no "pros". I sometimes think people just dont understand how far away korean pros were in terms of skill. But, the easier it is to form a ball of death, the more gameplay should shift to chipping / hacking away your opponent to prevent him from obtaining that blob.
And just like July started to harass his opponents to death with the muta mechanic that changed everything i too hope that the match ups will one day shift to something that requires so much skill and attention only the best of the best can bring to the table. But with Blizzards "too strong at various skill levels" approach we're probably fucked and get a washed out "everyone needs to be a winner"-solution.
|
You are comparing sc2 to bw. bw has been out for so many years. I think people need to relax and give sc2 some more time.
|
On September 12 2010 13:30 Ideas wrote:
one thing i just dont get is all these people saying "it's only been out for 2 months it will be better in time" are basically admitting that it sucks watching SC2 right now but still watch it for some reason. I just cant comprehend the motivation behind this lol
Agreeing that it is currently less interesting to watch than BW is a LOT different that agreeing that it is currently BAD to watch.
|
Judging from the threads in SC2 forum section, some blogs I've read and a couple of my friends relations, it seems it was a good idea to boycott SC2 on my part...
|
10387 Posts
On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax
This point is bullshit, in RETROSPECT the games were crappy, but the play at the time was fucking AMAZING. BW was a micro game back then, macro was not as prominent and integral as it is now.
The problem is, most of the games of SC2 are still shitty to watch, whereas televised games of BW were still amazing at the time they were played, back in 2000-2005. SC2 in the macro game isn't even that fun to watch, its usually just ball vs ball and over in one fight....
|
On September 12 2010 02:18 ziz wrote:The battles are not dynamic. It occurs so fast and once one side loses, it’s over for him (most of the time).
Nevermind coming back- BW it's easier to defend period. If you end up even a little behind in SC2, the lack of any high ground advantage once your opponent has vision can completely screw you over. Not to mention static defense seems weaker relative to the units.
It's really annoyed me how abruptly games can end in SC2- it seems like you can get into situations where there's literally nothing you can do- the game is just over because of a slight unit disadvantage. Contrast that to BW where unless you're at a very severe build order disadvantage, you can almost always do something.
|
On September 12 2010 11:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
in 2007 when you started watching BW, realize it had had over 7 years to evolve and develop
sc2 hasn't even been out a year
if you're disappointed, you did that to yourself with unrealistically high expectations mr gatsby
The skills translate across...
Regardless of that, it's the design itself that will make it less of a spectator sport (probably will get worse as time goes on and the best safe builds are figured out). Macro is basically a non-issue now but there's nothing to replace those actions with something else to do. Spellcasting is so simple that it's no longer impressive on the level of dark swarm usage or Jangbi's psistorms etc. Zerg is just horribly designed in general and clearly the most uninteresting race. There's nothing on the level (so far and can't imagine there will be) of 2port wraith or sair/reaver in terms of skill required and exciting to spectate. Also as mentioned comebacks are less likely now too which is a shame.
As the game progresses it will be harder for gamers to actually have an identity to their play in that you can tell when Leta is playing by his style or have players such as By.Hero or BeSt known mainly for macroing. There's significant skill gaps between the top pro's even with the same APM, while it's certainly going to be closer in SC2. Flash is playing almost perfect BW at the moment the only person to ever do so, and it took 12 years to get to that point. Considering the hugely easier mechanics of SC2, how long do you think before people play at that level?
Just my thoughts anyway. I certainly don't think people should keep saying 'the game is young!' when if anything it's going to be worse in the future due to these things. The game's fundamental mechanics are not going to change over time.
|
I agree with alffla that the worst thing about SC2 is how it's forcing blizzards hand in regard to BW. Guys keep in mind that the strats we're seeing in high level games and on the ladder are evolving and changing very quickly, and theres not even an expansion out. BW did a lot for SC1. HoTS and LoTV could do a lot for SC2. Don't be so bleak after the first month of the game being out ^.^
|
On September 12 2010 09:15 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 08:41 UdderChaos wrote:What? Did you not just watch the OSL final? Where finally Brood war was basically shown to be broken? Osl final spoilers: + Show Spoiler +Jaedong has to cheese every game because flash is unbeatable/imba end game, and that protoss is clearly the underpowered race in BW. This OSL basically proved BW is broken, jeadong and flash play the game near enough to perfect(grated not perfect but near enough) to prove that terran end game is basically imbalanced and that a zergs only chance against a player as good as flash is to stop him 14 cc'ing, plus its broken that a failed 4 pool puts you behind but a failed bunker rush puts you ahead. Also jaedong and flash have proved that the lack of early scouting in sc1 basically makes it a dice roll as you have no idea if the opponent is cheesing and some cheeses/openers beat others flat out, so there's an element of randomness in it. The only reason that that quality of games arn't as good is because the standard is lower, i mean Idra was a good B-teamer at best at a game he'd been practicing for years, with practice partners who were better than him who could teach him and experienced coaches, in sc2 hes at least a A teamer if not S class atm despite the fact he's newer to sc2 and has no-one good to practice with and no experienced coaches to help coach him. I don't think people realize that it's the quality of players rather than the game itself, but i will say the game ofc is not perfect, but after the 2 expansions the game should be at least as complex as broodwar and as fun to watch. Not gonna discuss that here but that's just completely wrong on so many levels I wouldn't even know when to start.
Everyone is saying the same thing but noone is bothering to refute it. It may very well be that the end state of BW where everyone plays perfect is who got lucky with the cheeses. Right now there is a skill gap, so no need to rely on cheese every game.
|
When they talk about "The Tasteless build" its very very tongue in cheek since its really really common and tasteless probably thought he invented. Also when jinro was doing that tastless was like "no that's not it, the tasteless build is whenyou swap the tech lab onto the starport" or something.
Starcraft 2 skill level/knowledge is miles lower than sc1. Give it time.
|
lol comparing OSL finals with Ro64 play. Very accurate comparison there.
And the whole "don't see any builds I can't execute" is just more lol. Go try them then and become 2000 diamond.
|
I don't know, I always find SC2 matchs very entertaining. There so many openings and viable builds right now. Even the first few min of a match are exciting to me. Modern BW is almost like geting a set piece battle up and running before they really start playing. I think some of the play your seeing out of players like Idra/Tester is pretty amazing in how solid/safe there builds are already becoming just weeks into release.
|
We'll always be more attached to the bicycle from our childhood. It doesn't matter the one you bought last month looks better, is more comfortable, faster or has more gears. You will never feel about a bike like you did about that one. And a picture of it will always bring back beloved memories: rusty handlebars, crooked and muddy wheels, bulky and a bit to large for your child body. You would feel like it gave you superpowers. Who is to blame we can't relive our childhood?
|
On September 12 2010 13:15 Delerium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:48 atarianimo wrote:On September 12 2010 12:26 Delerium wrote:On September 12 2010 11:13 Loser777 wrote:
BW has been around for 12 years. SC2 1 month. So why does Blizzard balance SC2 like it has been out for 12 years? Much of the game hasn't been figured out, but when the balance starts to shift to a certain race, it's "OH SHIT THE GAME IS IMBALANCED WE GOTTA FIX THIS"... no one is challenged to think outside the box when Blizzard tries to keep "standard play" balanced. It seems that because of Blizzard's decisions, the style of play around now is going to be around for a LONG time. this On September 12 2010 11:37 Angra wrote:On September 12 2010 02:25 Delerium wrote:
sc2 is part of the disappointment for me... as you said it seems very fragile. One thing goes wrong and the game ends immediately. I've been wanting to write about this for a while... is this because the game is new and therefore can't possibly be stable yet? should I be patient? or should I be angry, because the game developers and their corporate structure knew the precedent- esports already existed, they knew what standard of depth and competition requirements was set for them. I don't know. I don't want my love of professional broodwar to cloud my judgement. I know it's hard to tell because SC2 is still so new but it seems like there's absolutely no defender's advantage at all, in terms of units that can be used defensively, and no high ground advantage. That's a big reason I think why games end immediately after one person gains a slight advantage or something goes wrong. Like I said, it might be because it's new still, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually the case. and this. I really dislike Blizzard's balancing-for-competition philosophy ever since they hit a home-run with WoW. Not only are they favoring casuals over professionals, they are too sensitive and overreactive. They said they were going to fix sc2 ultralisks to make them not-useless and instead they... nerfed them? Okay. Great. I saw this same kind of schizophrenia in WoW back when they were trying to make arena into the next big e-sport, because one of their bosses could smell the money in Korea that Starcraft was generating. They're impatient and everything seems rushed. They aren't waiting for the players, aka the millions of game testers they have around the world, to find the problems (read: establish with trends) with balance in the game so they can be fixed for high-level competition. I don't know what you are talking about, there hasn't been a single balance patch since retail. that's true, and that is a good counter-point. I was reacting only to changes in the beta. it's pedantic, but I come from a different school of thought that says the alpha is when you make big changes. a beta should be almost done. you release it to users for a beta test, because you're testing it for bugs... you need to make sure it's ready for release, you don't want bugs to slip through. but that's also from an era when software was shipped finished, and patches didn't change the game, they only fixed bugs. active development is the standard now..
Pure bullshit...
You know that Starcraft was one of the first games to feature balance patches and had the expansion work as a large balance patch? Without these the game wouldn't had been the success it is today and this forum would never be created. It is impossible to balance an RTS in an alpha, it is hard as it is to do it in beta already.
|
Tasteless and Artosis are pure trash.
I am 100% confident that I can do their job better than they can, and I've never even tried before.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On September 13 2010 22:55 vnlegend wrote:
lol comparing OSL finals with Ro64 play. Very accurate comparison there.
And the whole "don't see any builds I can't execute" is just more lol. Go try them then and become 2000 diamond.
are you vnrock who maphacked and still got owned by me? lol
|
On September 12 2010 02:39 mOnion wrote:
I'm the biggest Tasteless fanboy in the history of the world and even I'm disappointed with his SC2 knowledge.
x.x maybe its just cuz I watched him when I knew nothing about BW either, but I feel like he understood that game better.
He had so much less downtime during his BW casting, his SC2 casting seems to be him stumbling about occasionally getting things right, he doesnt seem as funny anymore either.
This is a new game though and I have full confidence that he will be getting way better as time goes on.
|
I don't think you can really pass judgement based on the round of 64 of the first season. No hard feelings intended, but Artosis qualified and he hasn't really won anything notable in sc2 afaik.
As it moves into the quarters/semis/finals I think it should be more interesting, and especially in the next season I think we will see a much more competitive tournament. I know JulyZerg said in an interview that he'll be playing, and probably a ton more really high caliber players. Plus more potentially in-depth strategies as players get more time with the game.
|
I think the GSL has been great so far. Normally I can't stand watching any matchup not involving zerg, but I have watched every GSL game and find almost all of them enjoyable. Lots of different builds from all races.
And I think the casting is fucking amazing. Artosis knows a ton of shit and is super funny. Tasteless game knowledge is obviously not as high as Artosis, but he is super funny too. I think they make a great duo.
|
Because there are so many tourneys already I don't see what's so wrong about complaining about balance RIGHT NOW. They released the game knowing that there would be a bunch of money tourneys on the line. The expectation is that it should be up to a certain standard of balance ... well with the current state ... it's not up to par imo.
So, I agree with the OP.
|
Go watch some BW matches from the infancy of esports, you might notice the same things.
|
On September 12 2010 03:17 Xeris wrote:
Your problem is that you only started watching BW in its prime. Ever watch BW games from 2000? Watch Boxer destroy Blackman in WCG with microing 7 marines and 1 medic because the level of play was so bad that his godly micro could win games. People sucked donkey shit at BW until 2005 because people hadn't figured out how to really PLAY the game yet.
SC2 is not even 2 months into release and you're griping about the quality of play. Relax
Most people know how to play now cause of bw, so I don't see your point..
|
Maybe SC2 has some hope, but not before some expansion is out.
It looks similiar to w3 ROC, the games were so trash back then :
- mass huntress
- mass talon
- mass crypt fiend
- mass shaman + which doctor
...
Utter trash, but things have changed to a lot better after FT came out.
Tasteless performance is rather unprofessional, no comentator should boast and take credit for something like that. Imagine Nal_ra would boast that he was the "one" that started to use fast expanding. Not to mention his skills are lightyears away from tastelesses.
This early hype is killing the game aswell. Why the hell is everyone making super tourneys(full of noobs) and mass commenting a game that is 2 months after release?
No wonder every commentator just tells what he would or wouldn't do at the specific point in game.
Hell yeah everyone is right, because noone really knows what is right or wrong this early.
|
i think its just the fact that there havnt been many great games SO FAR. TBH last night idra vs lotze game 3 was epic. i enjoyed watching it...
I think sc2 needs klazart back he introduced me to the game with his passion, and commentators havnt been showing me much passion
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
