Being in the dessert theres only a few things I can, post these dumb blogs to express my feelings, watch replays, and post these dumb blogs to express my feelings. After watching rep after rep after rep I start to notice a lot of things players arent doing or something that just doesn't feel right.
In Brood war when you watched a pro rep you could really feel complete dominance and the feeling of "he's doing what i think he should do and he's pulling it off exactly how it's suppose to be." I really want to focus on Socke here. This guy is an up and coming player finding more and more success the more he plays. However! The more replays I watch of him I really just can't understand how other levels of protoss and zergs aren't ripping through players like this.
For instance! The genreal populas is saying how you don't need quick hand speed to be good at starcraf2. I disagree with this 100% That's like fat people saying real beauty is on the inside. We'll I guess that true in a depressing kind of way but only to someone who isn't setting their sights high enough. 150 apm will make you what I think is an average player. This will allow you to have a decent macro ability, crappy micro, but allow you to do the build orders and timings that are current at the moment. What people are missing out on is a million of the small things.
Like every great player will say, it's all the small things that add up to make a good player great. Examples of this are transferring your probes and having them dilver minerals to that newly formed expo on the Dime! Not transfer when its finished but already be ready to rock when it's done. Not sending your entire army to fend off harass. Just because he has a drop ship with a few hellions doesn't merit a code red response! The main ability of warp gates is to provide insant units in any location but where are the protoss players putting pylons everywhere? With high temps being able to insta storm you would think more protoss would be doing this. Cracking off some storms as the terran army moves out. Players are very complacent in todays skill and don't take the risks they should be doing.
I see Protoss players clump their units when it's been emphasized by the entire community pvt this is what you DON'T do. I'm talking even top level gamers like Huk and Socke. They don't separate until a big battle is about to ensue, people are lucky terran are developing slowly or cloaked ghosts with emp would be shitting on a lot of faces about now. This attention to detail players are leaving out are keeping the learning down. Forgetting about chrono boost in your nexus then spamming it when your in trouble. If you were doing your job you should have been using it the entire time.
It is easy to judge peoples performance on replays and even harder to execute but the amount of money floating around in all of these tournament, the amount of skill winning them is inexcusable. This is just one of those things I wanted to get off my chest. Am I the only person who feels the same way?
Young game, lots of noobs, lots of improvement to be done. Though with 150 apm you can play sc2 pretty much perfectly as long as you can spike to 200-250 at important moments.
Lol this blog has a lot of hilarious moments while also speaking some truth imo. Good shit, enjoyed the read. You are rough around the edges in some way but it's that dry almost ignorant humor that makes this a good post. Thanks.
i sort of understand what you are coming from, but i do think that stuff like this is what is going to make the game evolve. it's going to eventually seperate the good players from the gosus.
I disagree with this, with 150 apm you cant properly harass, micro and macro. I have watched enough replays to see evidence of this. It's like watching a baby take his first steps. It's very slow to watch someone harass while trying to do other things. People are focusing on just one thing at a time and not multiple like they should be doing.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
Hmmm, do you think 2 months into SC1 people like boxer were playing at boxer level remembering to do everything they should be doing? The reason people are so amazing now at SCBW is because they have played it for YEARS upon YEARS. You simply cannot honestly expect people to play SC2 like they can play SC1. In SC1, wunderkid Kolll made it to A- after only playing 6 months and that was amazing that anyone could be that good at SCBW after only playing 6 months. How can people become equally amazing at SC2 after just 2 months? People haven't developed muscle memory and they will forget stuff. It's not engrained in their brains. For example, look at the top 200 in US and Europe. Not a single person has played more than a few hundred games! How can you become as good as you are wanting them to be after so few games? Impossible, and if you don't think it's impossible, well why don't YOU do it?
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
Okay, I don't know what to tell you except that you're wrong. Have you played either game at a high level?
It's like saying when the UFC started getting popular it should have been at the same level as it is now - martial arts have been around forever and should have been the training grounds for the UFC.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
what about WC3. At the time it was out people already knew about the benefits of being fast and yet we still had pros that were hovering at around 100ish apm. And everyone said exactly the same that APM doesnt matter in wc3. Lo and behold a few years later pros were over 200apm and displaying micro rivaling their SCBW counterparts.
On September 02 2010 05:42 UBERtoSS_hV wrote: I disagree with this, with 150 apm you cant properly harass, micro and macro. I have watched enough replays to see evidence of this. It's like watching a baby take his first steps. It's very slow to watch someone harass while trying to do other things. People are focusing on just one thing at a time and not multiple like they should be doing.
Uhm.. In SC2, With 150 APM(according to the in-replay APM counter), you can easily micro and macro without problems... But if you are talking about 150 APM in broodwar, I can understand that..
Watch players like Tester and tell me it can't be done. The game is out for a short amount of time but the things people we forgetting were the simple things from BW. There aren't some new tricks in SC2 that make it harder to do the simple things. If we are going to do MMA references, i'd think it's comparable to a boxer learning to incorporate grappling then forgetting how to box. Such hostility from everyone! But that's ok. As for ME doing it? I think we are forgetting the point of the post here fellas. I was wondering how as the "top" levels are players forgetting these things? As for my spelling? Who cares rofl. I'm not trying to publish a book here, just write a blog.
On September 02 2010 05:42 UBERtoSS_hV wrote: I disagree with this, with 150 apm you cant properly harass, micro and macro. I have watched enough replays to see evidence of this. It's like watching a baby take his first steps. It's very slow to watch someone harass while trying to do other things. People are focusing on just one thing at a time and not multiple like they should be doing.
Uhm.. In SC2, With 150 APM(according to the in-replay APM counter), you can easily micro and macro without problems... But if you are talking about 150 APM in broodwar, I can understand that..
Do you have 150 apm? Definitely not enough to play zerg at full capacity. There is a reason Dimaga and Sen have 200+ SC2 apm and are two toppest zergs.
My brain is literally melting from the inanity of this blog.
There is absolutely no measuring stick for what is "good play" other than the play of the average player. This is the height of elitist bullshit from people who are spoiled by the fine-tuning achieved in one of the most complex and durable games of all time. Your idea of perfection exists nowhere but inside your head; it will take years even for the most elite to reach it. If it were easy, why the hell would none of the thousands of sc2 players who play and study the Game for an unhealthy number of hours each day be able to achieve it? Oh right, every one is stupid and incompetent.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
Alright basically where I think the fault lies is in part due to what you're saying but also in part it contradicts you as well. Here is the way I see it:
In the early day of BW the apm was lower not only because the game is fresh but because it didn't DEMAND the apm from the players, because their gaming environment wasn't as competitive as it is today. What I mean is that you are one of the few 100 apm players playing back in 1999 and you run into 95% 50 apm players and below, what NEED do you have to play faster if you are already so superior to the average skill level of the tier below you? The tier below you being that 4% that play at 80 apm or something (you being the 1%). So therefore, due to a lack of pressure, there is a lack of demand for the best to improve. The best improve only when they notice themselves fall behind either relative to their own group (the other best rising to 125 apm), or the tier below (them rising to your level of apm in greater numbers, therefore making each game harder and you being forced to play at your maximum potential more often, therefore tuning your sense of the game and etc. because each game you play challenges you more you feel the need to rise above again as a psychological reaction of being a usurped gosu). So therefore, you are right about this: the lack of APPARENT motivation from most players to get better is indicative of complacency, and thus people should be more motivated. But there need to be more players that naturally rise up to achieve that competitive motivation of "I want to be as good as those guys that keep raping me" in order to rise to a level where they pressure the current pros. That will certainly take time more than anything... So Chill is very much right. People can't help it if they advance in SC2 poorly despite their BW experience even if they used to be gosu, and that is because a large portion of the SC2 playerbase has never played BW or any similar game even and thus starts off at a large handicap, diluting the player base with noobs.
Mmm, I like this post... So high, sorry if I fucked up a lot of shit.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
Okay, I don't know what to tell you except that you're wrong. Have you played either game at a high level?
It's like saying when the UFC started getting popular it should have been at the same level as it is now - martial arts have been around forever and should have been the training grounds for the UFC.
I mean, he's not completely wrong. I feel like that's a fair point. There's no reason you should be playing sc2 slower than Broodwar.
However, it's true that a lot of the APM in Broodwar were sort of hardwired into you, like macro cycles, worker splits, and harass techniques (a la mutas). You never really though about it, you just thought "oh i need to do harassment" then selected mutas and spammed rightclick and P/H/A.
The issue I think the OP is stating is that the effort is not showing up in the matches. Clearly, there are loads of little things that even the pros are completely overlooking and it's not like in matches you see them try and fail. They just seem content with what they are already doing and just trying to improve that as opposed to adding in new elements. Which they totally could because, at least imo, the level of pro sc2 playing looks on the slow side right now.
Unless I have no idea what i'm talking about in which case please take pity
On September 02 2010 05:58 UBERtoSS_hV wrote: Watch players like Tester and tell me it can't be done. The game is out for a short amount of time but the things people we forgetting were the simple things from BW. There aren't some new tricks in SC2 that make it harder to do the simple things. If we are going to do MMA references, i'd think it's comparable to a boxer learning to incorporate grappling then forgetting how to box. Such hostility from everyone! But that's ok. As for ME doing it? I think we are forgetting the point of the post here fellas. I was wondering how as the "top" levels are players forgetting these things? As for my spelling? Who cares rofl. I'm not trying to publish a book here, just write a blog.
just like everyone else you overrate tester. Even though he's a former top SC1 pro so he has work ethics and ability to perform closer to perfection. And the reason for "forgetting" is not forgetting but rather the fact that there is no set in stone course of action there is no flash build there is no tornado terran, tehre is just adjusting your strategies on the fly.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Which is why I think broodwar players will start overcoming the non broodwar players when build orders start to develop and become prominent. We just have better mechanics than the non-brood war players, but that doesn't help as much yet since most of the games are coming down to unit composition and single battles.
I'm not saying that non-broodwar players suck at macro, just that we have a slight advantage in general.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
Alright basically where I think the fault lies is in part due to what you're saying but also in part it contradicts you as well. Here is the way I see it:
In the early day of BW the apm was lower not only because the game is fresh but because it didn't DEMAND the apm from the players, because their gaming environment wasn't as competitive as it is today. What I mean is that you are one of the few 100 apm players playing back in 1999 and you run into 95% 50 apm players and below, what NEED to you have to play faster if you are already so superior to the average skill level of the tier below you? The tier below you being that 4% that play at 80 apm or something (you being the 1%). So therefore, due to a lack of pressure, there is a lack of demand for the best to improve. The best improve only when they notice themselves fall behind either relative to their own group (the other best rising to 125 apm), or the tier below (them rising to your level of apm in greater numbers, therefore making each game harder and you being forced to play at your maximum potential more often, therefore tuning your sense of the game and etc. because each game you play challenges you more you feel the need to rise above again as a psychological reaction of being a usurped gosu). So therefore, you are right about this: the lack of APPARENT motivation from most players to get better is indicative of complacency, and thus people should be more motivated. But there need to be more players that naturally rise up to achieve that competitive motivation of "I want to be as good as those guys that keep raping me" in order to rise to a level where they pressure the current pros. That will certainly take time more than anything... So Chill is very much right. People can't help it if they advance in SC2 poorly despite their BW experience even if they used to be gosu, and that is because a large portion of the SC2 playerbase has never played SC2 or any similar game even and thus starts off at a large handicap, diluting the player base with noobs.
Mmm, I like this post... So high, sorry if I fucked up a lot of shit.
I love this post and I can agree with you. The hunger to be that top tier player and for others to follow suit. And well maybe this image of a perfect player is in my head but thats ok!
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
Brood war was made at a time was the RTS genre was barely on its feet, Sc2 isn't. On top of that Sc2 enjoys the skill level brought forth by people with a decade of BW experience, so this argument is kinda lame to me.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
That's an excuse to me. People should consider BW as the training grounds for SC2. The fundamentals and mechanics have already been established but people are just lazy about it. SC2 gives a lot of freedoms BW didn't have and provides an easier learning curve but I just think that anyone who has played brood war should know what it takes. ie.. Chill. You should know
In a bw game a player can use his 250 apm because it is clear what to do with your apm. What to do has been under development for 12 years.
So even if the mechanical skill is similar, the strategic depth is different, that's the issue with your argument. If a player simply could improvise "a plan of perfection" after the game's been out 1 month and use his bw mechanics then it would work out but that's not the case.
Quit crying, people are getting better. Wait till more BW pros switch over and have established practice homes and partners. SC2 will reach maturity when this level of intensity is reached.
>Your opinion doesn't matter since you have less than 200 posts. Wait, you're supporting BW? EVERYONE LISTEN TO THIS GUY EVEN THOUGH HE HAS LESS THAN 200 POSTS! /sarcasm
I'm aware you've been an even longer member than I have though haha (I had another account banned......so maybe not LOL).
I totally agree, but from the casual gamer's perspective, these are all necessary. Reviews/magazines/etc would rate SC2 as a terrible game if they didn't have intelligent AI. While Actizzard is pushing ESPORTS, only the "elitists" left over like the old way. Obviously there are individuals who like both games, but many have moved on and are prepared for a new game. I complain as much as anyone about SC2 and its low skill level and whatnot, but I'm over that. If it succeeds so be it. I just want BW to live on. I think I may have drifted off, but I hope my post is coherent enough. I can't really think straight right now, so I'll stop typing before I spew out more words.
Also, I miss seeing you post in the BW forums Chill TT
On September 02 2010 06:45 SubtleArt wrote: Brood war was made at a time was the RTS genre was barely on its feet, Sc2 isn't. On top of that Sc2 enjoys the skill level brought forth by people with a decade of BW experience, so this argument is kinda lame to me.
Except the culmination of all that experience (Brood War progamers) aren't really playing SC2. Besides, the OP's point (I think lol) was that even the top players make too many mistakes. If so much skill was brought over from BW, what does that say about BW? If skill really transfers over so easily we'd be forced to conclude that SC2 is a much harder game than BW.
150 apm definitely won't be enough in a few months, this game has many things to consume all of that extra apm. I'm positive it has all the potential to utilize any amount of apm.
Yeah, all the references to year 2000, Grrr and Boxer are plain absurd. We have established RTS players here who all have the years (if not a decade) of playing RTS monsters like bw and wc3, this isn't something that is being invented from nothing right on the spot. All the people that used to be good are still good because they know exactly what playing sc2 is about. They still haven't uncovered all the tactical and strategical depth of it but this doesn't mean they can't utilize their skill compared to rookie/bad players. If bw came out after wc3 there would be no Grrr stacking over 3k minerals every game while still dominating.
On September 02 2010 05:35 UBERtoSS_hV wrote: In Brood war when you watched a pro rep you could really feel complete dominance and the feeling of "he's doing what i think he should do and he's pulling it off exactly how it's suppose to be."
Pro's. And that's comparably 'late' in starcraft's progression compared to sc2 atm.
Today's executions and strategies will obviously look laughable in the future, but enjoy the process.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
Brood war was made at a time was the RTS genre was barely on its feet, Sc2 isn't. On top of that Sc2 enjoys the skill level brought forth by people with a decade of BW experience, so this argument is kinda lame to me.
The same could be said about Starcraft from War2 and War3 from Starcraft.
The SC2 level is only about a fucking billion miles above 1998 Starcraft so stop talking out of your ass.
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
Brood war was made at a time was the RTS genre was barely on its feet, Sc2 isn't. On top of that Sc2 enjoys the skill level brought forth by people with a decade of BW experience, so this argument is kinda lame to me.
The same could be said about Starcraft from War2 and War3 from Starcraft.
The SC2 level is only about a fucking billion miles above 1998 Starcraft so stop talking out of your ass.
bw and wc3 were the first RTS with any kind of serious competition, plus sc2 is too similar to bw to not expect these things to be happening.
I just realized you're actually saying that, but this is what the guy you quoted is saying too..
On September 02 2010 05:42 Chill wrote: The game is a month old. BW is 12 years old. Give it time.
Brood war was made at a time was the RTS genre was barely on its feet, Sc2 isn't. On top of that Sc2 enjoys the skill level brought forth by people with a decade of BW experience, so this argument is kinda lame to me.
The same could be said about Starcraft from War2 and War3 from Starcraft.
The SC2 level is only about a fucking billion miles above 1998 Starcraft so stop talking out of your ass.
bw and wc3 were the first RTS with any kind of serious competition, plus sc2 is too similar to bw to not expect these things to be happening.
The skills are directly transferable, right? That's why all the best Starcraft players are the best Starcraft 2 players, right? Like remember when Huk won TSL and when Tester won the OSL?
Now, of course that's not a fair argument, but I think you're simplifying things to the point of ridicule. Obviously there's some overlap, but it's not absolute. So here we having amateurs saying the overlap is nearly absolute, when the players, results, and game mechanics say otherwise. What can I possible say?
Like if the mechanics and skillsets are identical and the prize money shot up 100 fold, what is your explanation for the skill drop? Laziness? REALLY? If people are so bad why don't you just go win up all the tournaments? Like I can't even form a rational argument here because this thread is basically "Hi I'm fucking terrible but in my genius opinion players aren't good enough."
How do we respond to that? "Oh yea ironically everyone decided to just play shitty at this game so more people had a fair chance. Keen eye."
Huk was still about B-/B level player, not like he was playing DOTA or something. He probably invested 24 hours a day into this, I haven't seen him not playing yet (at least during beta). Then you have Dimaga who only plays a few hours a day here and there and still wins smallish tournaments. I agree that it's a different game but OP is just saying that things like probe transfers and paying attention to your army could be expected to be executed better. Idra, dimaga, white ra and many others are still top players, just like some of the top wc3 players. Obviously that "overlap" isn't absolute, but it's more than you're suggesting maybe? I personally don't think that ALL of the bw foreign "pros" are playing nearly enough to be consistently winning atm.
I'm pretty much reading Chill's posts and just agreeing.
SC2 is a different game than BW. It has common units, buildings, and ofc the name, but it is still a different game. It seems to me like the OP is saying that SC2 pros are just average players. That these players don't have THAT much skill. But it is pretty obvious with looking at tourney results to see that there are definitely players on another level than the rest.
On September 02 2010 05:39 superbabosheki wrote: Young game, lots of noobs, lots of improvement to be done. Though with 150 apm you can play sc2 pretty much perfectly as long as you can spike to 200-250 at important moments.
I could spike to 270-360 within like my first fifty games. It doesn't do anything and you just get too focused in on useless micro. I should note, this is broodwar apm. Divide by 1.38 for sc2 apm.
On September 02 2010 08:26 intrigue wrote: have you seen old bw games? players regularly had 1500 minerals, and elky lost a vulture to a command center. relax.
EPT
