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I'm a toss.
And I loose every match up vs. zerg who goes mutas. Why? Please tell me.
As of now, I'm top 700-800ish in Europe, and I feel pretty confident in most match ups - just not zerg who goes mutas.
Cannons costs a billion minerals, are very inefficient and never scares off a good zerg.
Due to the high amount of zerglings I need to close off my base 100%, if I do do this mutas have free range to fly in and kill any probes/buildings they like.
Mass stalker dies to zerglings/ultras in late game.
So pheonix/zealot is the answer, right? Wrong.
If i go pheonix, he tech switches to hydra and kills me.
Please don't say blink, it's a joke vs. mutas. Mutas will just run off to the next natural you have, while you blink 1 inch towards them. + Stalkers will get slaughtered by zerglings and ultras.
I've considered storm, and have a HT standing at each natural.
What do you toss' do? Please state your world rank with your reply (might not mean anything to the gosu, but it means something to me).
 
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We need replays to figure out what exactly you're doing wrong. Post some up and we can give you advice.
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I do everything wrong - i have no idea how to beat it, at all.
Every tech path seems easy countered - and I get far behind once zerg reaches 10+ mutas.
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Yeah.... But we don't know if your macro is off, if you mismicro in places, if he goes for a greedy build you didn't punish, etc, etc.
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Calgary25996 Posts
I have no idea what my world rank is, maybe 15,000th?
Just like in SC1, mutalisks will harass you to death if you let them. When it comes to an actual battle they are decidedly weak. It sounds like you're letting Zerg get to mutas for free, then take map control and continue expanding. At some point you have to be willing to lose some buildings while you push back to kill his expansions. You can fight back easily with DT harassment or storm drops. Blink stalkers work well against mutalisks, and your criticism of them running away doesn't make sense since you should be attacking him at some point, not defending all game. Sentries protect really well against zerglings and guardian shield is mandatory against large battles involving mutalisks.
It sounds like you're looking for "If mutalisks, then MAGIC_UNIT" which doesn't exist. Instead you should look to understand why you are getting into situations where you can't leave your base all game.
Your attitude makes me angry.
The walling-off requirement comment is also absurd.
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really?
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So pheonix/zealot is the answer, right? Wrong.
If i go pheonix, he tech switches to hydra and kills me.
your obviously doing alot of wrong, replays will help people help you.
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On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Your attitude makes me angry.
But I'm not here to entertain you, so so much the same? I appreciate the advice tho.
Never said mutas are OP - just that I can't figure them out.
I think I might try pushing him earlier with stalkers, problem is zerglings. It's easy to get overrun, and the AI for stalkers shoot anything when ground-attacking, including the zerglings.
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chill is right...the best counter to mutas is to macro hard...get up enough cannons to hold with limited stalkers and then counter attack these bases hes trying to take with the map control...another thing...always go templar tech when they go muta...archons and storm make mutas almost useless
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Im about the same rank as chill ~15,000. I open 2 gate pressure into phoenix almost every game vs Z. and yes that opening does force hydra. If they don't switch to hydra you can phoenix harass them to death then just charge in with a much larger army. Since it forces hydra you need to be ready to switch with him. I opt for HT cause it lets me get charge on the way to storm. Once you have storm there is a nice timing window to go and attack shut down expos, and expand your self. If you miss this window they will likely respond with roaches or ultra and you need to transition to including some immortals. This isn't an easy build to execute, there are a lot of weird timings you need to get down and if you are late on the transitions you are fucked.
Of course an easier option is 3 gate ->3gate robo them on one base and you can prob kill them before mutas become an issue, but if they defend you are boned.
Also, your attitude does suck. Its not a matter of entertaining us, it infectious and you end up with people that just complain instead of looking for answers and it will stop you from progressing and becoming a better player.
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On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really?
No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir.
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Sounds like you're mind fucking yourself by thinking "Ahh he is always countering me" when really you should be attempting to set the pace in the match from the start to MAKE zerg do what you want or lose
Leave a zerg alone for even 60 seconds after they have queens out and you could be losing the game
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On August 31 2010 03:44 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really? No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir.
Your blog isn't what aggravated him, it was just the general attitude this community seems to have about "unit counters". If you're building stalkers, your unit composition probably isn't the problem. Look to improving macro issues, expansion timing, push timing, army movement, etc.
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On August 31 2010 03:44 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really? No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir.
He actually wasted his time trying to give you an advice since you don't even get the concept. If you choose to stay ignorant that's your preference really.
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Whoa Qzy man you need to take a deep breath. Don't take out your frustrations on the world :D
I don't know my world rank but I'm only around 400 Diamond (North America) Zerg player. Here is what people do vs. me when I'm playing against Toss that prevents me from attacking their natural etc. First of all, you have to have 1 maybe 2 cannons at your expansions, but that's not all. My muta fly in to kill the cannons and if you are quick enough, warp in 3-4 stalkers or sentry / stalkers right away! This will make me want to move my muta away! 12 muta can't take 2 cannons and 4 stalkers if microed properly and not to mention your main army will be coming to reinforce so that will make me think twice about sticking around in your nat!
As far as your main attack force goes, I've been having a lot of trouble with Phoenix vs. muts. Just mix in Phoenix with your stalker /sentry attack force and it's potent dont' forget the Sentry sheild to!
Oh also, I'll have to agree with some others here don't wall off completely, it's totally unnecessary I've lost to countless Protoss that don't wall off completely. They just leave 1-2 zeals on hold position and that blocks off access, not to mention a sentry behind them to prevent any entry also.
Anyway hope this helps, try to relax it's just a game!
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On August 31 2010 03:44 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really? No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir.
Then go to the strategy forum where people really want to help you with this stuff. Chill gave you good advice and was liable to give you more and you banned him.
You aren't trying to learn the game, you're a poo.
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Why not open phoenix?Or just all in with a 4 gate or something before muta?
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I had a LOT of trouble losing against Mutas. Now its my best win percentage.
As soon as I see one muta, I evaluate my situation and decide between two options:
1) Attack as soon as possible. Mass gateway... whatever I have laying around. Mutas are VERY BAD for the cost in a straight battle against anything that can hit them. Macro up a big army and try and kill them. It's kinda all-in, as the mutas can run in and kill your minerals. Be sure to have a guardian shield up when the mutas are forced to attack you head-on. It nerfs them a ton.
2) Play like you probably do, stay in your base, get a starport, and macro up a force of phoenixes. Micro them well and don't lose a single one. Keep the Mutas from harrassing and harass as much as you can yourself. You will force the mutas to engage you or do to HIM what he does to you... lock hi min his bases. You might even be able to expand again depending on the map. He will eventually have to tech-switch to Hydras. Anticipate this, and be well on your way to Collosi or high Templar (or just chargelot/gateway). You will have aerial dominance and the superior ground force against his. Push.
3) I've opened 3gate starport if I suspect something stupid like 1-base muta. Shut down their mutas with phoenixes and push with gateway units for an easy win. If its something like 1-base bling-bust a void ray rush will be awesome instead of phoenixes.
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rofl@banning Chill. Chill can be an asshole sometimes but his post was seriously fine this time.
The best part about being banned is I can just edit any post to say what I want anyways...
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I'm ranked 450 in USA. Rank 1400 world.
What beats my muta ling is a gate forge expand into 1 stargate 1 phoenix to scout. It deters me from getting spire, and then you can go robo from there. 2 base can afford the extra stargate and phoenix.
btw: i disagree with chill. the LAST thing you want to do is throw away gas into DT harass and storm drops.
1. you can't stop mutas from scouting the dark shrine.
2. drops dont make sense against air.
3. DT's are bad in sc2.
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Osaka27172 Posts
On August 31 2010 03:44 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really? No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir.
I guess you were looking for strategy advice that looks more like your own?
On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
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On August 31 2010 07:56 Ndugu wrote:
I had a LOT of trouble losing against Mutas. Now its my best win percentage.
As soon as I see one muta, I evaluate my situation and decide between two options:
1) Attack as soon as possible. Mass gateway... whatever I have laying around. Mutas are VERY BAD for the cost in a straight battle against anything that can hit them. Macro up a big army and try and kill them. It's kinda all-in, as the mutas can run in and kill your minerals. Be sure to have a guardian shield up when the mutas are forced to attack you head-on. It nerfs them a ton.
2) Play like you probably do, stay in your base, get a starport, and macro up a force of phoenixes. Micro them well and don't lose a single one. Keep the Mutas from harrassing and harass as much as you can yourself. You will force the mutas to engage you or do to HIM what he does to you... lock hi min his bases. You might even be able to expand again depending on the map. He will eventually have to tech-switch to Hydras. Anticipate this, and be well on your way to Collosi or high Templar (or just chargelot/gateway). You will have aerial dominance and the superior ground force against his. Push.
3) I've opened 3gate starport if I suspect something stupid like 1-base muta. Shut down their mutas with phoenixes and push with gateway units for an easy win. If its something like 1-base bling-bust a void ray rush will be awesome instead of phoenixes.
I think that's a very good strat. I just gotta watch out when he's tech switching to hydras or even ultras, perhaps prepare in time. Usually my problem also consists in that it's hard to scout ultras coming... If you don't see the hidden caven, you'll see 10 ultralisk spawn at once (okay perhaps not 10, but close!)
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On August 31 2010 13:45 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 03:44 Qzy wrote:On August 31 2010 02:36 Chill wrote:
Edit: You banned me from your blog in response to this post? Really? No need to respond to a blog that aggravates you. Just trying to learn the game, sir. I guess you were looking for strategy advice that looks more like your own? Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 11:59 Qzy wrote:
I can't bring any other news to the thread, other than i really think you are very wrong.
Haha =) Hey at least I'm admitting I'm doing it very wrong - "Can't figure out mutas".
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whenever i see a Z go muta, i go sentries  . and sentries with upgrades is the best thing ever. +3 attack on sentries is really strong.
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When you suspect mutas, put pressure. We pretty much have to make a good bunch of spine crawlers to defend against aggression before we get mutas, at least in my experiense. Make him use these minerals. Make sure you have sentries once mutas get out. Use stalkers with blink to deny harass as you macro up, then eventually attack. Mutas really need to do some sort of harass to work well unless you're playing too defensively and let him expand and macro like hell. I'm guessing phoenixes is also a good idea, but I haven't played all that much as Z or P after that moving shot patch during the beta, so I can't say much about that. Also, don't block off completely, or even just-zealot-size-block. Make room for all units to enter, but put a couple of zealots on hold to avoid zerglings. You can even put down a couple of pylons to block off once you're moving out and just warp in some stalkers if he decides to send mutas.
Also, Chill did not only give you strategic advice, but also criticism on your attitude and approach to this problem. He was just being blunt about it, no need to ban him.
Good luck.
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On August 31 2010 02:18 Qzy wrote:
I'm a toss.
And I loose every match up vs. zerg who goes mutas. Why? Please tell me.
As of now, I'm top 700-800ish in Europe, and I feel pretty confident in most match ups - just not zerg who goes mutas.
Cannons costs a billion minerals, are very inefficient and never scares off a good zerg.
Due to the high amount of zerglings I need to close off my base 100%, if I do do this mutas have free range to fly in and kill any probes/buildings they like.
Mass stalker dies to zerglings/ultras in late game.
So pheonix/zealot is the answer, right? Wrong.
If i go pheonix, he tech switches to hydra and kills me.
Please don't say blink, it's a joke vs. mutas. Mutas will just run off to the next natural you have, while you blink 1 inch towards them. + Stalkers will get slaughtered by zerglings and ultras.
I've considered storm, and have a HT standing at each natural.
What do you toss' do? Please state your world rank with your reply (might not mean anything to the gosu, but it means something to me).
I have been raging a bit after losing a couple of game to zerg who like to go mass mutas, and at first i thought it was imbalanced but it isn't.
You just have to make a pure phoenix/sentry/stalker mix and a couple of cannons at your expos. You can always make some zealots if you have extras minerals.
This army composition is really weak vs ground units however if he is really massing mutas he will only have some zerglings and mass FF >>>>>>>>>>>>>> zergling.
The second reason why mass mutas seems imbalanced is that those zergs love to put a ton of spine crawlers à their expos and they are ridiculously strong vs stalker/sentry. So my advice is to not attack their heavily defended expo ( but you can fake some pressure to make them build more spine crawlers ) until the late game when you will have enough money to get some immortals or colossus. You just have to prevent them from taking more expos and take some for yourself. Remember that without the spine crawlers your army mix should be superior to mutaling.
You should alway be really carefull with scouting because at one point the zerg will switch to ultra or roach/hydra and you will need to pump immortal/colossus quickly to not be obliterated. However you should have a big economy advantage if you microed well vs his muta harass. Also don't let them sneak some hidden expos or you will get outmacroed.
Mutas are only imbalanced if you didn't scout and went for an early colossus/immortal army with a large number of zealots.
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EPT
