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jesus I got owned so hard today i just have to make a massive whine post
first by select, who i had a maybe 60% winratio before, got owned like 29-4 over the last 2 days
next by redarchon, who i was previously 11-2 with. i went 2-8 today
posted this whine in the other "pvt phoenix first" thread so ill paste it again here.
i was ranked #1 by blizzard on SEA in the top 200 a few days ago so do give me credit for what i say.
i used to go phoenix alot and i basically thought that phoenix was a faster moving ob which can actually do shit. but i recently came to the conclusion vs a top player it is not a viable build.
sure you can win 95% of the other players but you will never win a top player who knows how to do timing attacks.
3 rax RAPES it
1 rax expand 3 more rax RAPES it even harder
and when the terrans start to learn this you will see phoenix not being used ever
sure you can kill a few scvs here and there and have perfect information of what hes doing but it ddoesnt matter because you know hes gonna attack you soon and you will die. a good player will not make turrets and just camp in his base with marines and once he gets stim he will attack and you won't be able to have an army which can beat his mass of stimmed MM
i actually think there is a huge problem with PVT at the moment. First off you cant go phoenix because the 2 above builds rape it. You cant go straight charge/templer because banshess rape it. So you have to go Obs first as your default build. The problem with that is vs a 1rax expander terran, you only have ONE follow up, and that is to make collosus then transitioning into charged zealots/ templars later in the game
If you make anything else like citedels, immortals, stalkers etc, you simply wont have enough units to be able to defend against his timing attack. so protoss has to stick to one build while terran can do a whole lot of stuff.
i think the middle-late game is pretty balanced tho, just the early game is nonsensical at the moment
/whine
 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
i think the middle-late game is pretty balanced tho, just the early game is nonsensical at the moment
Amen. Lost to an insane number of one base timing attacks on SEA today as well (also open phoenix).
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United States24495 Posts
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
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I agree that PvT is extremely difficult at the moment.
It isn't even that P is basically stuck with just one build mentioned above (excluding cheese) - but also that the timing windows with that one build are so extremely narrow. Terran have a ton of options on their end and are constantly inventing new build orders. If the P misreads the build or if the Protoss player has not experienced that particular variation before, he is basically screwed as the window to react perfectly is around 10 seconds. Until the game is solved, this means a Protoss player gets many "auto-lose" games due to it not being feasible to figure out how to play against a new slight Terran variation build while within a game.
Not sure if that makes sense, but it is what annoys me most about the matchup. Not only is one stuck with one build, but one cannot even really "free flow" with that one build due to the reaction process to what Terran is doing being so rigid.
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Void ray is a cheese build and not really viable as a solid build (unlike 3 rax or 1 rax expo or 1-1-1). I agree there are definitely some issues with PvT in terms of what is viable early game vs terran. If they reduced the cost of the robo/obs and make some adjustments to terran times that may help out the issue.
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yeah, early game protoss vs anything is really hard for me. It was bad for me in BW, but it is just stupid in SC2. terran has 3rax, which just outproduces protoss for the most part. Then, PvZ, there is the amazing baneling mass speedling that only works due to the ridiculous numbers of units. And it seems like if you dont go 2gate in PvP, you lose to early zealots, or are pretty much too far behind that you lose.
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On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
Same, lost to a TLer last night who started adding VRs after we both had our naturals. I must have scanned every god damn place on the map except where his stargates were. I attacked with a much bigger army(marauders + tanks for the most part, a few rines) but he had like 6 VR and I just ragequit.
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On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
same here, and it comes in charged and destroys me haha.
thats usually the only way protoss beats me though. 
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Yeah I really dread PvT due to the early game. I feel so helpless against marauders, like it's unstoppable sometimes. Very rarely do I stop the first push.
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On August 26 2010 05:23 Audigy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb same here, and it comes in charged and destroys me haha. thats usually the only way protoss beats me though.
heh, i have problems with high templars. my goodness i get stormed at least 50 times. and my ghosts get feedbacked. last 2 games.
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i would recommend you watch socke he absolutely rapes T
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I'm doing citadel first nowadays, against banshees I expo with a forge and wait for obs =/
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I used to use void ray openings against terrans with a lot of success, but the build isn't as reliable anymore. Most terrans expect it and prepare for it by either getting vikings out fairly quickly or building their base in such a way that I don't have any hit and run or charge-up options. I've tried doing other stuff, including robo-openings and council openings, but each fail miserably against certain terran builds.
As I've said elsewhere, the problem is that terrans have a huge tier 2 advantage over toss right now. Terrans are getting very good at leveraging that advantage with their builds, which is making life hell in PvT.
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I've been having the same issues as mentioned in this thread. It gets very frustrating. I've been trying so many different strats yet I can't seem to find one that is safe / flexible enough to really rely on.
It also made me very sad that I played T for the first time yesterday and beat my friend who is a protoss currently in the top 200 on US server (doesn't mean that much but vs it was against my T which I literally JUST started playing yesterday). Terran just has so many options...
I needed to get this rant out...getting so discouraged, I can only imagine how Zerg feel
edit: not to mention every tournament is being dominated by terran =/
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I like to 3gate robo and i generally feel safe, until the bancheese comes! D:
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thanks for the replies guys, glade to see im not alone
On August 26 2010 05:33 DISHU wrote:
i would recommend you watch socke he absolutely rapes T
just saw two games of him
wow he does play very similar as me, i bet he has a similar problem with the MU as me now.
basically those 2 games summed up everything i said in the OP, which is a crazy coincidence
First game he went phoenix, got crushed by a 3 rax timing attack, even tho he did good dmg at start and then went out to get the best counter to what his opponent was doing, did a great forecefield at his ramp, and still died. i normally transition into mass speed zealot/sentries and then expand and get temps later.
2nd game he went obs first, and transitioned into coll which is of course the only transition when u realised the terran has fast expanded and u need to secure an expand as well as fight off his timing push. everything else u make apart from coll will die to a timing attack, trust me.
his mistake in the 2nd game was attacking tho, protoss is so incredibly inflexble at the moment. how u play that matchup is defending with ur coll till u get zealot/temps, that way u can surivive till mid game where its pretty even, tho terran will have that economy advantage from all the mules and from expanding earlier than you.
here are the games
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36085
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36084
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I'm very interested to see what builds Nony will be using for MLG against Terrans. He's so good at sizing up army's at a glance and knowing who's will win.
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I feel like a lot of the problems come down to the map pool. We would see a lot better games on larger maps.
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EPT
