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jesus I got owned so hard today i just have to make a massive whine post
first by select, who i had a maybe 60% winratio before, got owned like 29-4 over the last 2 days
next by redarchon, who i was previously 11-2 with. i went 2-8 today
posted this whine in the other "pvt phoenix first" thread so ill paste it again here.
i was ranked #1 by blizzard on SEA in the top 200 a few days ago so do give me credit for what i say.
i used to go phoenix alot and i basically thought that phoenix was a faster moving ob which can actually do shit. but i recently came to the conclusion vs a top player it is not a viable build.
sure you can win 95% of the other players but you will never win a top player who knows how to do timing attacks.
3 rax RAPES it
1 rax expand 3 more rax RAPES it even harder
and when the terrans start to learn this you will see phoenix not being used ever
sure you can kill a few scvs here and there and have perfect information of what hes doing but it ddoesnt matter because you know hes gonna attack you soon and you will die. a good player will not make turrets and just camp in his base with marines and once he gets stim he will attack and you won't be able to have an army which can beat his mass of stimmed MM
i actually think there is a huge problem with PVT at the moment. First off you cant go phoenix because the 2 above builds rape it. You cant go straight charge/templer because banshess rape it. So you have to go Obs first as your default build. The problem with that is vs a 1rax expander terran, you only have ONE follow up, and that is to make collosus then transitioning into charged zealots/ templars later in the game
If you make anything else like citedels, immortals, stalkers etc, you simply wont have enough units to be able to defend against his timing attack. so protoss has to stick to one build while terran can do a whole lot of stuff.
i think the middle-late game is pretty balanced tho, just the early game is nonsensical at the moment
/whine
 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
i think the middle-late game is pretty balanced tho, just the early game is nonsensical at the moment
Amen. Lost to an insane number of one base timing attacks on SEA today as well (also open phoenix).
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United States24644 Posts
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
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I agree that PvT is extremely difficult at the moment.
It isn't even that P is basically stuck with just one build mentioned above (excluding cheese) - but also that the timing windows with that one build are so extremely narrow. Terran have a ton of options on their end and are constantly inventing new build orders. If the P misreads the build or if the Protoss player has not experienced that particular variation before, he is basically screwed as the window to react perfectly is around 10 seconds. Until the game is solved, this means a Protoss player gets many "auto-lose" games due to it not being feasible to figure out how to play against a new slight Terran variation build while within a game.
Not sure if that makes sense, but it is what annoys me most about the matchup. Not only is one stuck with one build, but one cannot even really "free flow" with that one build due to the reaction process to what Terran is doing being so rigid.
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Void ray is a cheese build and not really viable as a solid build (unlike 3 rax or 1 rax expo or 1-1-1). I agree there are definitely some issues with PvT in terms of what is viable early game vs terran. If they reduced the cost of the robo/obs and make some adjustments to terran times that may help out the issue.
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yeah, early game protoss vs anything is really hard for me. It was bad for me in BW, but it is just stupid in SC2. terran has 3rax, which just outproduces protoss for the most part. Then, PvZ, there is the amazing baneling mass speedling that only works due to the ridiculous numbers of units. And it seems like if you dont go 2gate in PvP, you lose to early zealots, or are pretty much too far behind that you lose.
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On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
Same, lost to a TLer last night who started adding VRs after we both had our naturals. I must have scanned every god damn place on the map except where his stargates were. I attacked with a much bigger army(marauders + tanks for the most part, a few rines) but he had like 6 VR and I just ragequit.
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On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb
same here, and it comes in charged and destroys me haha.
thats usually the only way protoss beats me though. 
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Yeah I really dread PvT due to the early game. I feel so helpless against marauders, like it's unstoppable sometimes. Very rarely do I stop the first push.
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On August 26 2010 05:23 Audigy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 05:17 micronesia wrote:
I keep losing to void ray that my scan misses lol feel dumb same here, and it comes in charged and destroys me haha. thats usually the only way protoss beats me though.
heh, i have problems with high templars. my goodness i get stormed at least 50 times. and my ghosts get feedbacked. last 2 games.
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i would recommend you watch socke he absolutely rapes T
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I'm doing citadel first nowadays, against banshees I expo with a forge and wait for obs =/
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I used to use void ray openings against terrans with a lot of success, but the build isn't as reliable anymore. Most terrans expect it and prepare for it by either getting vikings out fairly quickly or building their base in such a way that I don't have any hit and run or charge-up options. I've tried doing other stuff, including robo-openings and council openings, but each fail miserably against certain terran builds.
As I've said elsewhere, the problem is that terrans have a huge tier 2 advantage over toss right now. Terrans are getting very good at leveraging that advantage with their builds, which is making life hell in PvT.
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I've been having the same issues as mentioned in this thread. It gets very frustrating. I've been trying so many different strats yet I can't seem to find one that is safe / flexible enough to really rely on.
It also made me very sad that I played T for the first time yesterday and beat my friend who is a protoss currently in the top 200 on US server (doesn't mean that much but vs it was against my T which I literally JUST started playing yesterday). Terran just has so many options...
I needed to get this rant out...getting so discouraged, I can only imagine how Zerg feel
edit: not to mention every tournament is being dominated by terran =/
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I like to 3gate robo and i generally feel safe, until the bancheese comes! D:
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thanks for the replies guys, glade to see im not alone
On August 26 2010 05:33 DISHU wrote:
i would recommend you watch socke he absolutely rapes T
just saw two games of him
wow he does play very similar as me, i bet he has a similar problem with the MU as me now.
basically those 2 games summed up everything i said in the OP, which is a crazy coincidence
First game he went phoenix, got crushed by a 3 rax timing attack, even tho he did good dmg at start and then went out to get the best counter to what his opponent was doing, did a great forecefield at his ramp, and still died. i normally transition into mass speed zealot/sentries and then expand and get temps later.
2nd game he went obs first, and transitioned into coll which is of course the only transition when u realised the terran has fast expanded and u need to secure an expand as well as fight off his timing push. everything else u make apart from coll will die to a timing attack, trust me.
his mistake in the 2nd game was attacking tho, protoss is so incredibly inflexble at the moment. how u play that matchup is defending with ur coll till u get zealot/temps, that way u can surivive till mid game where its pretty even, tho terran will have that economy advantage from all the mules and from expanding earlier than you.
here are the games
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36085
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36084
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I'm very interested to see what builds Nony will be using for MLG against Terrans. He's so good at sizing up army's at a glance and knowing who's will win.
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I feel like a lot of the problems come down to the map pool. We would see a lot better games on larger maps.
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On August 26 2010 06:12 JTP wrote:
FUcking terrans
My sentiments exactly
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wow i wasnt aware PvT was this messed up. feel the same way about zvt though, just zerg reacting to a bunch of small windows trying not to lose to them and hoping to get a mistake from the T or create a long game where the advantages dissipate
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Yeah, I guess since ZvT has been the focus lately, PvT gets completely ignored. In both matchups terrans are favored and strong and therefore I think they need nerfs or serious buffs to the other races
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Terran is the new protoss.
I think that Idra should change one of his famous quotes.
TvT is so funny, they just sit there hurling imbalanced shit at each other
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Holy Crap, what the hell happened to the Protoss Terran matchup? Suddenly the Zerg situation against Terran doesn't seem that bad, Protoss has it much worse.
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I agree completely that early game PvT is fucking broken, no matter how you open. It just sucks when a terran decides to 1 base (which also decides you have to 1 base as well), since terran units are just quite simply better than yours you have the options of trying to make more gateway units/immortals and hope to win by microing your heart out when he 1a's you (I dread the day the ~900 rating terrans I face start bothering to micro), or teching up on one base and praying he doesn't notice and walk over you, or if it's not possible, tech up himself and also run you over.
Ugh, such a frustrating matchup, especially when you know it gets kinda fun and challenging in the late game but it's totally up to the terran to decide if it ever goes there.
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Yeah I've been fine (and fairly confident) in my abilities in PvT until a few days ago. Somehow these new banshee heavy builds just appeared out of nowhere and at first I always underestimated them :/
Really hard to fight off banshee with 2 or 3 gate robo simply because of how immobile your army is. It really feels like Terran dictates the game from the beginning and then usually comes into the mid game with a sizeable advantage so the protoss can't win even though the midgame seems so finely balanced.
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On August 26 2010 07:08 FragKrag wrote:
Yeah I've been fine (and fairly confident) in my abilities in PvT until a few days ago. Somehow these new banshee heavy builds just appeared out of nowhere and at first I always underestimated them :/
Really hard to fight off banshee with 2 or 3 gate robo simply because of how immobile your army is. It really feels like Terran dictates the game from the beginning and then usually comes into the mid game with a sizeable advantage so the protoss can't win even though the midgame seems so finely balanced.
I've been saying it since beta: The Protoss and Zerg are Terran's bitches
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I was going to come here and tell you that you just need to learn to play and it's balanced but then I noticed you were talking about SC2.
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On August 26 2010 07:23 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 07:08 FragKrag wrote:
Yeah I've been fine (and fairly confident) in my abilities in PvT until a few days ago. Somehow these new banshee heavy builds just appeared out of nowhere and at first I always underestimated them :/
Really hard to fight off banshee with 2 or 3 gate robo simply because of how immobile your army is. It really feels like Terran dictates the game from the beginning and then usually comes into the mid game with a sizeable advantage so the protoss can't win even though the midgame seems so finely balanced. I've been saying it since beta: The Protoss and Zerg are Terran's bitches
Precisely my sentiments.
In early beta I played random, and I've been race-switching almost every few patches to side with the "strongest" race. It has been Terran ever since patch 11.
I guess I play the game to dominate and win against lesser players (races), which gives me far more satisfaction than losses where "you would learn more" 
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The match up is becoming harder and harder for Protoss. I think give it another 2 months and Terran will be dominating the match up as much as TvZ and there will be almost no Protoss considered a threat.
I just genuinely can't find any safe openings that work vs good Terrans consistently, everything has a reasonably hard bo counter that T can actually adjust to in time to kill you if they know what they're doing.
Anyone looking to be competitive at this game would be an idiot not to pick Terran right now, which is a shame, because PvZ is by far the best, most interesting match up in the current patch.
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lol at least you HAVE other units at T2 to pick from even if Colossus is your only good option. What do we get? Roach/Hydra or Muta. That's it.
My hardest tech choice in most games is "Hydra or Muta?". Ahh fuck it who am I kidding, I just go Muta every game now.
and yes I build Infestors so don't call me a n00b or anything
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I personally find ZvT easier than PvT.
I actually switched to Zerg. Don't kill me Zerg players, you can still complain.
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Wow it's like you guys are all playing a different game than me.
While I find TvZ quite easy (ok everyone knows it is that's not the point) TvP is a fucking mystery to me.
I can not figure out this damned matchup. My micro and macro is pretty good, and I just can't stand up to a protoss army. Immortals completely shut down any 3 rax play, if I try to 1-1-1 i get crushed by any number of things. Even if i make it to mid/late game mass chargelots and storm usually beats me.
And before I get flamed for being a terrible SC2 player I was a C player on ICCup, so I'm not exactly horrible.
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On August 26 2010 12:27 SCC-Faust wrote:
I personally find ZvT easier than PvT.
I actually switched to Zerg. Don't kill me Zerg players, you can still complain.
I don't think anyone will dispute this - I just think most of us protoss players are saying "hey - the grass isn't green over here either!"
Again, as stated, my biggest problem is the early to early/midgame stages - protoss just feels so fragile with few ways of coming out with an advantage/even to a well played terran player.
Maybe i'm just horrible though :[.
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in PvT, i think about going phoenixes same as thinking about forge FE, likely to die early on to an bio ball OR beneficial lately... just open 2 gates, poke around and decided your tech. Air tech for toss only work on some certain maps and mostly you have to get 1 VR. pure phoenixes aint that good unless he is going tanks
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From watching a ton (50+) PvT's from top players- mostly because my own Terran play against Protoss sucked hard (mostly my timings sucked, either too passive or attacking when I shouldn't). I just wanted to comment on the early to midgame dynamic of PvT (namely 3rax vs a robo opening) and more specifically defending against the first 3rax timing push (a very intuitive build with a good timing push that leads into either a) winning b) gaining a substantial lead c) at the very least, securing an expo)
Unit Compositions
At roughly even supply,
Protoss must have the correct unit mixture (zealots/stalker/immortal/sentry) I don't know the exact ratio, but somewhere around 1.25:1:0.25:0.25 to beat a normal MMM ball, based on what I have seen I would argue that with good forcefields the aforementioned force will rollover a pure MMM ball (no ghosts). Now I mention this no ghosts part because it is important in the (probably) the most common TvP build, the 3rax (for reference see Demuslim in IEM). Usually the first 3rax push doesnt have ghosts so with the right mixture, a 2 or 3 gate robo build should be able to defend a rax push (from what I have seen). Basically, the theory is that the zealots tank shots while the rest of the units do damage and sentries forcefield to prevent retreat micro.
However, if protoss doesnt have the right mixture, a classic example is a composition consisting of mostly stalker, the toss army just gets rolled. Now, this is probably where the balance problem lies, in that the toss will probably just die without the proper unit composition (while the Terran composition is much simpler).
I just want to point out that I only talked about robo openings vs standard 3 rax (marine medivac marauder with stim), I don't know how ghosts play into it as I haven't really seen a 3rax with ghost (because you really only have enough gas from 1 base for either medivacs or ghosts).
P.S. this is by no means a truly rigorous analysis and mostly a casual conjecture from watching mass replays over the last week, truly its probably mostly theorycraft
^_^
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On August 26 2010 12:32 Kashll wrote:
Wow it's like you guys are all playing a different game than me.
While I find TvZ quite easy (ok everyone knows it is that's not the point) TvP is a fucking mystery to me.
I can not figure out this damned matchup. My micro and macro is pretty good, and I just can't stand up to a protoss army. Immortals completely shut down any 3 rax play, if I try to 1-1-1 i get crushed by any number of things. Even if i make it to mid/late game mass chargelots and storm usually beats me.
And before I get flamed for being a terrible SC2 player I was a C player on ICCup, so I'm not exactly horrible.
I kind of agree with you here. I only really have one safe opening and I still lose with it to creative play because I'm so confined to staying back early on until quite a few techs finish. Once I actually do finish all the rax upgrades, get +1, get a raven and vacs and 2 ghosts, I'm finally comfortable.. but until then I get hammered if I leave my area. I think I need to explore expanding earlier and bunkering up to try to get ahead more often.
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That's why I stopped laddering and is currently waiting for balance patch
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I must be playing really bad Terrans, because I swear I can kill most of them off with voidrays... or prolong the game to the point where I can do that.
The others roll me with their bioball -.-
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As a Random player I can say that definitely TvP feels like the easiest matchup for me (my TvZ is bad :/ ), and while my PvT isn't bad it feels very insecure in the early part of the game, and pretty much always die to an early push, but win if for some reason the terran play more passive and try to go into the midgame.
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I must agree, I have very hard time fighting 3 rax camper. my loss against such build is almost 100-0
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When i said that two weeks ago they gave me 2 stars and now you got 5 !!!
:D
edit: oh well OP was 2 weeks ago too lol
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Got to say there's a lot of gosux2 people on this thread.
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I used to think terran was imbalanced till I started playing 1700 players. Pvt late game favors P without a doubt. If your losing to rax rushes you really should invest some time learning how to use guardian and force fields.
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proper 3 rax rolls any FE build unless you are like, cross positions on metalopolis or smth and you pull all your natural probes, and even then terran is expanding whilst hes doing that
3 rax is basically the standard "unbeatable" agressive build, you don't even need to go 1/1/1, because early cost efficiency is so over the top there is absolutely no way you can win with equal economy armies
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Going early Colossus is pretty neat against 3 rax.
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On September 12 2010 23:32 ZeKk wrote:
Going early Colossus is pretty neat against 3 rax.
Thanks for your contribution.
I'm having similar problems, pretty much 2 gate robo is my only option to avoid death by banshees, after this if I rush to templar I get rolled. So i've pretty much found exactly what you're saying to be the only way to hit mid-game without dying. Collossus -> slower expand -> templar. It just feels like my tier 1 is so inferior that I can barely hold my ramp let alone do anything else.
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i also use the fast phoenix build, as i think it is the safest build protoss has(imo). Can't say i have tooo much trouble with 3rax with people at the same level as me, except on maps like desert oasis. Bio fast expand builds are very tough to deal with though, for me. Basically any good terran player will mix up there builds alot so there 1rax expand or 3rax cant be blind countered.
It's interesting watching testers games, he uses a collosus into templar build, he defends with collosus against 3 rax Just to defend from early pressure and then gets templar off two base once the collosus become useless due to vikings. That seems to be the style in korea but i think the pheonix build isgood.
I think a good terran player should go for bio builds about 75% of the time, while the rest of the time they should be doing some sort of mech cheese or something(because if you mix any 2 terran units together it seems to be a powerful combination)
With this build order ratio protoss would probably be forced into collosus-> templar play which makes them weak against every build.
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At least a fast phoenix is better against terran than some hydras off creep vs terran...
ugh...
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yea PVT is broken as fuck right now, T has so many different builds its redic, if they get ANy form of eco advantage game ovah, and there tier 1 units are ungodly to strong
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additional reason why it is broken:
I attack T
T gets reapers kills my nexus and i have no money to build
I kill his base and his army (except for one CC)
He floats cc in the corner of the map where i can't see him (blistering sand)
still in the game after an hour, I won't leave cuz he doesn't deserve a win.
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EPT
