• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:40
CEST 06:40
KST 13:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202561RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension5
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Server Blocker Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 640 users

Why is Dayvie at the Top of the Ladder?

Blogs > ItsYoungLee
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
ItsYoungLee
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)227 Posts
August 13 2010 16:40 GMT
#1
At sc2ranks.com dayvie is currently #1 with rating 1188 with a record of 63.64% 119-68, while TTOne is #3 with rating of 1166 with a record of 67.96% 210-99. Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Is this a consequence of some Ladder Matching Rules Battle.net is using?

*
ePParamedico.160 (formerly ElParamedico)
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
August 13 2010 16:44 GMT
#2
well ttone probably got matched against more lower ranked players, while dayvie got matched against stronger players.
boomer hands
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 16:46:08
August 13 2010 16:44 GMT
#3
TTOne could have played a lot of players where he was favored, or davyie played a lot of players where his opponent is favored.
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
mesohawny
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada193 Posts
August 13 2010 16:46 GMT
#4
it doesnt matter how many wins you have, its the quality of your wins

"quality" being an arbitrary term in relation to their opponents ladder ranking.
love you long time
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
August 13 2010 16:47 GMT
#5
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
August 13 2010 16:47 GMT
#6
Oversimpified: TTOne is playing too much.

My guess is that it's a consequence of the bonus point system, high losses, low gains at the top of the ladder. Dayvie climbs in points because the bonus point system gives him more than he loses. TTOne loses more than/just as much as he gains from the bonus pool.
It's fairly safe to assume that you are bound to lose points if you are at the top of the ladder and "only" have a 68% win ratio.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
EffectS
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium795 Posts
August 13 2010 16:55 GMT
#7
On August 14 2010 01:47 (Z)Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and (T)Only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?


For that (Z)Answer my friend, I'd like to advice you to Check out the following site:
+ Show Spoiler +
50 Things that (T)Kill braincells
TEEHEE
ItsYoungLee
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)227 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 16:57:42
August 13 2010 16:56 GMT
#8
On August 14 2010 01:47 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?


It's not that trivial as an explanation of "Dayvie just played more favored people while TTOne didn't". If the system is good it should average out and you shouldn't have people with different win percentage of 4%+ with a combined sample size of over 400 games have similar rating. In this case it's even worse because the direction is reversed (lower win % --> higher score). The p-value for that has got to be miniscule.

The explanation must lie in how the system matches opponents. I don't have that great of a knowledge about how it works, and would like to understand.
ePParamedico.160 (formerly ElParamedico)
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
August 13 2010 16:56 GMT
#9
I don't know why you are having a problem with a third party ladder ranking website in the first place. Maybe go to the thread for it and demand the answers from the creator?
Brood War forever!
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
August 13 2010 16:59 GMT
#10
On August 14 2010 01:55 EffectS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 01:47 (Z)Chill wrote:
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and (T)Only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?


For that (Z)Answer my friend, I'd like to advice you to Check out the following site:
+ Show Spoiler +
50 Things that (T)Kill braincells

Can someone please explain to me why EffectS tlpdized his post?
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
ItsYoungLee
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)227 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 17:00:56
August 13 2010 16:59 GMT
#11
I don't have a problem with it, I'm just curious how it works. If you had read the post you would know that it's got nothing to do with the third party ranking site...

+Blizzard is reluctant to give all details of their ladder ranking system because then it's possible it could be abused. Just thought with the intelligent TL userbase here someone could venture some plausible guesses to explain such non-intuitive results.
ePParamedico.160 (formerly ElParamedico)
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
August 13 2010 17:00 GMT
#12
On August 14 2010 01:55 EffectS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 01:47 (Z)Chill wrote:
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and (T)Only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?


For that (Z)Answer my friend, I'd like to advice you to Check out the following site:
+ Show Spoiler +
50 Things that (T)Kill braincells

Priceless
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
August 13 2010 17:03 GMT
#13
Well you said @ the website he is ranked #1 over TT1. The ladder is up for interpertation from so many people on what should be taken into account, but like many have said it is all about who you play against win or lose.

Maybe TTone lost a lot of games to Dayvie? If you beat someone you gain a lot more points then what you would have won. Say Dayvie beats TT1 Dayvie gains 20 points and TT1 loses 10 points. Dayvie just gained 30 points on TT1 in the ladder.
Brood War forever!
AnodyneSea
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Jamaica757 Posts
August 13 2010 17:05 GMT
#14
favored / unfavored opponents and probably help from bonus pool. everyday i get home from work i have like 10+ pts in bonus pool.. i know thats only roughly 1 game but still
Lost within the hope of freedom, not for control but in the light of our cause
ItsYoungLee
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)227 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 17:12:58
August 13 2010 17:09 GMT
#15
Kralic, you make a great point there - one possible explanation is Dayvie did beat TT1 a lot. Lol, maybe Dayvie is super effective against TT1? I'd like to here from TT1 himself whether this is the case.

As for the bonus pool, I don't think it should make much of a difference because they probably started laddering at the same time, at the release of Starcraft 2. Thus they both gained the same amount from the bonus.

I found this website which helps to explain the system a lot,
http://lorehound.com/starcraft/starcraft-2s-battle-net-leagues-ladders-and-rankings-explained/
but it still seems to me that the data I see for rankings seems discordant with a well-designed laddering system.

Another explanation that seems possibly plausible to me is that these two users play as part of two different Battle.net 'cohorts'. If TT1 only plays at night and Dayvie only plays during the day, this could somewhat explain how they could have different %ages with similar ratings. Do they live on opposite sides of the Earth? lol
ePParamedico.160 (formerly ElParamedico)
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
August 13 2010 17:22 GMT
#16
Opposite sides of North America at least: California vs Quebec.
Moderator
broz0rs
Profile Joined July 2008
United States2294 Posts
August 13 2010 17:36 GMT
#17
in case you haven't read this analysis:

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/7/24/analyzing-starcraft-2s-ranking-system.html
EffectS
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium795 Posts
August 13 2010 17:54 GMT
#18
On August 14 2010 01:59 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 01:55 EffectS wrote:
On August 14 2010 01:47 (Z)Chill wrote:
On August 14 2010 01:40 ItsYoungLee wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Can someone explain to me how someone with what appears to be 91 more wins and (T)Only 31 more losses is rated lower?

Can someone explain to me how you couldn't figure this out yourself?


For that (Z)Answer my friend, I'd like to advice you to Check out the following site:
+ Show Spoiler +
50 Things that (T)Kill braincells

Can someone please explain to me why EffectS tlpdized his post?


+ Show Spoiler +
I clicked it, and it is my geek nature not to more than is needed, so I diden't remove it.

happy now?
TEEHEE
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
August 13 2010 18:12 GMT
#19
Maybe he won more games earlier and lost more later as opposed to evenly distributed?

If best winrate -> best ranking, then ranking would be rather redundant.
404.Delirium
Profile Joined May 2008
United States1190 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 18:24:06
August 13 2010 18:20 GMT
#20
I don't really know why it's a deal worth worrying over or blogging about, or why that post was TLPD'ized; or why we should know and you can't figure it out yourself =(

I really just responded half-heartedly to the thread because I got a mild kick out of the ad banner.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
seriously next disrespectful comment in this blog is ip ban. Be happy or get the hell out. // SC2 is like playing with neutral-colored Play-Doh while BW is like colorful Legos.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft544
Nina 230
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4431
Sexy 53
League of Legends
JimRising 653
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1162
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor63
Other Games
summit1g8082
shahzam1055
ViBE212
C9.Mang0208
NotJumperer2
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1397
BasetradeTV22
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH211
• practicex 28
• Adnapsc2 1
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota225
League of Legends
• Doublelift4526
• Lourlo1281
• Stunt377
Other Games
• Scarra927
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
5h 20m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
9h 20m
CSO Cup
11h 20m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
13h 20m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 4h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 9h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 13h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL Team Wars
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.