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An Opinion Piece #3![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/17318.jpg?1254589689) Gather 'round children while uncle Chef rambles to himself
Ladders
I fucking hate ladders. They're miserable, especially in SC:BW. Even if it didn't take forever to get a game, with most people banning you if you aren't their soulmate, that's not the real reason I hate ladder. SC2 fixes all that and I still don't like it. The whole mentality of a ladder is garbage.
Every once in awhile when watching SC:BW VODs (I can't believe I feel the need to be so specific already), I get the sudden urge to play SC again. I can't help it. I love this game. But then I remember all the people I used to play with are basically like me... We don't play anymore, and if we do it's on a random spur of the moment. So I go to play a game or two of ladder. It doesn't matter if I win or if I lose, I still feel shitty after. "What just happened? This was shit," I think. Why is this game I loved so much not fun anymore? Well I think I've figured it out: I hate playing strangers.
When you play a stranger, the banter is pretty limited (no in jokes, no history), most people don't even want to talk... Okay, that's fine. I like a focused game as much as the next guy. But what really sucks? The question of whether there will be a re-game or not. It's pretty rare to get a re, especially against someone who just does one risky strategy every game. The games aren't friendly, so mistakes aren't as funny, and you don't even get the chance to rectify them in the next game... But the worst thing is that my favourite part of StarCraft is stripped away when I play ladder. That part is figuring out my opponent and playing TO HIM, rather than just playing my own game.
When I play ladder, it feels like it's fucking single player. There's no meta-game... Or if there is, it's really limited. I don't know how you personally define meta-game, but understanding popular trends is not interesting or fun. It's just 'wow, a lot of people do the same crap.' GREAT. You have to make such general and boring assumptions about your opponents that you might as well ignore them. For a casual player like me, this is nuts. It forces a style of play which is boring and repetitive. Macro and play safe. Wow SO fun. If someone catches you off guard, don't bother fixing that hole in your game cause it will never happen in the same way again.
This brings me to the virtues of playing someone you know, or at least just the same person over and over. As maps and matchups start to overlap, you get an overall picture of your opponent's style. You can find the holes in it, and fix the holes in your own game that he's exploiting. It's an intense mind game, where you can actually detect patterns in your opponent's play. 'If I do this, he always does this: What's the best way to abuse that?" It's specific, and means that between me and my opponent, our game is always evolving. Our strategies are complex. We don't have to play super safe and super standard and try to read every possible strategy in the game. We know what's in each other's repertoires; When something is added it's interesting and we can talk about it after. What's more, because we know our opponents style is limited (not playing 10 hrs. a day), you can think pretty far ahead with your strategies and get units you don't normally see.
That's what I miss most about having a rival to play all the time. The games were so varied and exciting. For the both of us, there is heavy motivation to keep the game fresh and interesting. I miss countering shuttle/reaver with lockdown ghosts because I KNOW my opponent has been in love with it lately. I miss feeling like I am playing my opponent, and not some faceless might as well be a computer guy. I miss feeling like I'm fucking good at this game when I play his weakness so perfectly. I miss not feeling bad about losses because I will always have a million chances at revenge. I liked not feeling shitty about a random mistake. I liked getting to know where I should place my army based on how my opponent moves his army... I just fucking liked StarCraft.
+ Show Spoiler +Oh man, I was on such a good angry rant for the first 2 paragraphs... Then I kept being interrupted and it was hard to harness the angry while being nice to someone at the same time. Plus all my blogs are retarded 
 
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5/5 good read.
I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT TOOOOOO
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Katowice25012 Posts
I find I play a lot worse against people I don't know. Laddering is okay but its really nothing like playing with a group of friends, they're completely different experiences and playing friends is far superior.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Dare I say it, but my only good memories from SC2 beta are my epic 2v2 adventures with Mani D:
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While I don't mind playing strangers, getting heckled by someone you're likely not ever going to meet in person is one of the most infuriating things that can happen to you. And shortly thereafter, they deny you the re. Not everyone does it, but the few always spoil it for the group.
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on a side note, i play about 3-4 times better against computers than actual people 
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Chef, you play zerg right? May I suggest proxy hatch?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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I actually 9hatched in the middle of Lost Temple a few days ago. I don't feel as clever though, since he was just some stranger. He did end up asking for a re though, so I just raped him with the Stove.
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United States10328 Posts
On June 18 2010 14:19 Chef wrote:
I actually 9hatched in the middle of Lost Temple a few days ago. I don't feel as clever though, since he was just some stranger. He did end up asking for a re though, so I just raped him with the Stove.
waaaait a second this sounds quite unlike what you said in your OP :O
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Yeah I agree with you Chef. Playing casually with friends is always much more fun than laddering. However, there needs to be a system so that we can evaluate everyone's skill level. This is why we have ratings in chess, rankings in schools, etc. Saying ladders are stupid is like saying chess tournaments are dumb cause playing blitz games with friends is more fun, or that any sort of official competition that doesn't involve monetary gain is worthless.
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Let me describe the complex mind games that went on in those games. "Oh, Lost Temple. The only people who make that on iCCup are people who haven't played in 5 years. He's probably terrible, so I'm just going to do something really retarded." Not the most fun I've ever had in my life. But then there's something about Lost Temple... The home of real men.
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I always do random strats against strangers, hell my last strat was 14CC to 2Rax 4Port wraith against zerg and ended up getting 10 starports and winning with battlecruisers, I did this twice to 2 different people. One of them flamed me to no end, and the other one thought it was really funny.
Just because you play strangers doesn't mean you have to do a boring build, and you don't have to play against your friends to do a lockdown 
I agree though, playing with friends is better than playing strangers.
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I always find it way more fun to play with friends. But unlike you I don't find my self in misery when I play strangers. I totally understands what you are saying tho.
Which is why I was so pissed when one of the sc2 patches removed our ability to add friends via input.. AND reset/wiped all my previous friends/got rid of identifies. effectively disconnected me from all the friends I've made through beta until that point. They know we are going to lose all our friends on beta with no way to add/find them again (except extreme luck), and didn't even give out a warning. Mannered and skilled ppl can be hard to find.. sigh... after that i didn't really play anymore beta.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This blog has inspired me to go play SCBW again (and try midgame transitions into dweb vs terran!)
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Excellent blog, Chef.
I think we should play starcraft. ;D
Do you irc?
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Except that I'm one of the players who enjoy slow paced safe macro games (especially mech tvz from both sides) I agree with most of your blog, 5/5 (;
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I will play you all the time.
We have history.
you ate cakes at my house fuck.
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Canada7170 Posts
On June 18 2010 15:22 ella_guru wrote:
I will play you all the time.
We have history.
you ate cakes at my house fuck.
It's supposed to be
Syllables: five seven five.
Or were you joking?
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actually, my macro improved after playing SC2 but my micro has gone to shit.. can only select 12 units..lol
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On June 18 2010 15:38 mikeymoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2010 15:22 ella_guru wrote:
I will play you all the time.
We have history.
you ate cakes at my house fuck. It's supposed to be Syllables: five seven five. Or were you joking?
Those things are all true : (
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yo, i'd be down to play with you for a whole bunch of games pm me! and great read too ^_^ i give you 5/5
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deep in side, we are all love to play 4v4 melee with our friends. playing with stranger in 1 on 1 game is just for killing time.
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5/5
Maybe they should include another option for ladder. "Play series games." You would choose between Bo3, Bo5 and Bo7 and you will be matched against an random opponent of your rank just like in a normal ladder match but BNet will make you two play for 3-7 games in a row. Sounds fun to me.
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I thought it was a good rant. I feel the same way after an Iccup session these days. Cold and abandoned.
edit: ARRRGGGGGG FFUUUUUUUUUU @!$!@$!@%!%!%!!% FUCKKKKK SHITTTTT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH
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SC2 should have a post-game lobby that you and your opponent join after you finish a ladder game. Then you could easily talk to that guy/add him to friends/play that guy again or just start a new ladder game.
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? But wouldn't playing against a stranger force you to be more flexible, and able to respond to a variety of different strategies? Assuming that you're not talking about the D ladder, because 'standard' there is going to be about 50%, and the people that play safe on there are even lower than that, but two people that know how to "macro and play safe," playing each other should be a challenge to you. You shouldn't be assuming that a stranger's going to play a certain way just because everyone else is doing it. You should be scouting and reacting, and moving your army based on what you scout, not based on what you know about that person.
I think playing with friends is much funner, but it doesn't necessarily make you a better player in the long run/against other people. I mean, it's a part of the game, but not one that people under A level need to think about imo.
But yea. A good rant. ^^
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I didn't even realize how right you are until reading this.
B.Net 2.0 is lonely not just because of lack of chat channels.
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I know exactly how you feel, me and a friend started playing around the same time, and I have the MOST fun playing BW when im playing with him.
especially since im toss and hes terran :E
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It is definately more fun with friends. In any game.
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On June 18 2010 13:55 heyoka wrote:
I find I play a lot worse against people I don't know. Laddering is okay but its really nothing like playing with a group of friends, they're completely different experiences and playing friends is far superior.
That really was the reason why everyone was bashing Blizzard for no LAN support. There is no supstitute for in house gaming with sibblings or friends )
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I agree, I lost all interest in 1v1s after about 250 games in brood war ( and it wasn't because I was losing more than winning, I won WAY more than I lost ). I still love playing 2v2 with people I knew, and I basically have to play random or I get bored so quickly.
Find someone you know and play 2v2s, but don't take it seriously to the point that a loss upsets you. Be willing to try crazy strategies.
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Playing with people you know is more fun, but ladder can be fun too if you do more interesting strategis, rather than playing to win with standard builds over and over.
Very good read though
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On June 18 2010 19:50 fishyjoes wrote:5/5 Maybe they should include another option for ladder. "Play series games." You would choose between Bo3, Bo5 and Bo7 and you will be matched against an random opponent of your rank just like in a normal ladder match but BNet will make you two play for 3-7 games in a row. Sounds fun to me.
I brought this up in an older thread, but I thought much about the concept of BNET tracking what times you play, and then matching you up in groups of 8 or 16 for a month with players at the same level who play at the same time. Facilitating a small group of players to get to know each other and play close games. Perhaps even having standings and a tournament at the end of the month.
A way in which people who don't have a lot of real life friends who play sc can develop a report with some new players.
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Absolutely agree. Adding the ability for auto-re and like a BO3/5 series to ladder games would be wonderful.
Another feature I would love is practice matchmaking. The matchmaking system is great, but I don't see why *every* game needs to be rated. If I just want to practice a BO or play a warmup game it would be great if I could automatically find an opponent (who was also looking for practice games) and not worry about the impact to my rating. And then, when I felt I was warmed-up, or understood the BO, I could hop on to the ladder and play with laser focus and intensity for a few games. Once I start to feel like I'm fading, I could switch back to practice because, fuck it, I love SC and want to keep playing without the stress. Right now, I actually find myself *avoiding* playing the game when I don't feel like I'm in peak shape (didn't sleep enough the night before, had a long day at work, etc.) because it ends up being a form of self-punishment to take those matches.
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none of my friends irl play starcraft so i had to end up playing strangers. laddering is good for people who actually want to get better though.
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Since I hate you too much to agree with you, I only wish to say that we are not rivals. We were never close and you will never be anywhere near me in skill. Your victory over me was undeserved and everyone knows that I am way better than you in every way possible
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Ok, this may cheer you up a bit, and perhaps see a different approach on this:
I live in Cuba, a country with multiple restrictions blah blah blah. I have never experienced a ladder or b.net experience in my life, so every time i play is with someone is a known of me, a fellow player or team member or whatever. Thats very cool, until one of this 2 things happen:
1- You try to improve your game, be better. You are playing with the same people, lets say you have 9 friends who are better/equal than you in BW. Cool, they are different race users and all, cool. The first week you get fuckin tired of playing the same style, the same openings, the same everything, hell, you cant even make a tournament cause the participants are your friends, and if not, then youre probably are gonna lose, since you are so accustomed to a close style in the matchups. Scratch all that, new thing, you became better. Do you think thats gonna bring your firends and you together? hell no, the low level players will stop playing with you or the other way around, you will only play with them once in a while. The other kind of friends will se you as competition, and fuck, since you guys keep chating ingame, arguments will arise more frequently that will lead to discussions about whose better etc, remember the fun times you had at first? gone, no you loose 2 games and become so angry you disconect.
2-Play once in a wihle with friends,holy shit thats fun......wait a minute......why the fuck this is so boring??!?!? ill tell ya, they kept playing BW and raped you so hard that 2 games is all youre gonna do before go play wow. Lets say, again, they they are the same as you, bff that play bw once in a while, thats actually cool, depending in how many plays or much time you wanna spend on the game -_-, even if you guys are fuckin soulmates and have everything the same, you will grow so tired of playing with them.........oh wait thats actually cool cause youre just a casual agmer but im not so this is very bad for me T_T
There is only like 15 gosu players here and im so tired of playing vs them...............
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I think thats a fair point regarding ladder. Thats why a game community like TL is such a big boost to any game since you can meet and sustain partnerships with other players (or form a clan gaming team etc). Things are just funner with more people in general
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ladders are only fun for winners or people trying to become winners
(by winners I mean that's their goal.. to win and be the best)
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Why do ladders have to be such an anti-social experience? I actually befriended a few random people because we had good banter during a 1v1 or 3v3. I've found that it is tough to make new friends but it's not impossible. Just start talking and usssually unless their a douche or being super serious they'll banter with you.
I suppose a private league or some sort of chatroom for your league might help solve this and create that community you're looking for.
tl;dr up for a match once the game comes out? ^_^ (Only plat in beta <<)
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This is what I like a lot about B.net 2.0 though (yes there are upsides to it too!):
I found it super easy to make SC2 friends because of the tl sc2practice partner thread and people actually using that account they have posted instead of having 100 smurf accounts like in bw. Plus the friends list is better in B.net 2.0
Concerning bw you can still have some nice games if you join OP irc.
I personally find it frustrating though because I do so many mistakes it's just sad.
Btw. your blogs aren't retarded, I always like reading them.
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This is why i never could ladder seriously and never personally enjoyed playing ladders.
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Hell yea, I have like one friend i play with ALOT and 2 friends that just started, one is pretty good and the other is shit T.T (Can't even split in half). But if we have LAN its SoooooooOOOoOOO much funner than playing on ladder. and if we play on a ladder when everyone is there, we all watch one person play and then ALWAY say "Zomg how'd u lose?" or "CHEESED" or "NICE". It's really fun.
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I totally agree with the OP. Playing vs the same person(whether you know him or no) is allways much more fun as you feel your game developing every single game as opposed to every 10 games. It is fun to read your opponent and try to control his play by abusing his weaknesses. Of course playing against friends is even more fun.
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I don't really care who I play, as long as he is either my skill level or above my skill level. When you play someone above your own skill level, as I see it, the other player can see more holes in your strategy and abuse them, and then after the game, you can tell yourself what you did wrong and fix it next time.
Example: I played a C- Terran on iCCup yesterday, and he went for a fast 3rd expo. I didn't know about this because my obs were all in his main/his natural. Now I know that I need to scout out every part of the map before I do anything, because I play with the mentality to stay one base ahead of all Terrans.
There are times when you just need to practice with friends, its fun, because you can try anything against them.
For example: You can't pull off a proper DT/sair or.. Sair/reaver. You can try it against friends, because there is no pressure, and they can tell you what you did wrong after. You can get an infinite amount of re's too with friends. So I guess you just need to find the balance between laddering and playing with friends.
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Great read, well written, concise, and interesting. Well done.
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My roommate has agreed to buy SC2 and play with me. He was a big fan of Brood War when it first came out, but like a lot of people he moved on to different things.
This blog is exactly why I am so excited about the game coming out. I can't wait to play with my roommate, over and over. Sure he's going to be pretty bad/rusty at first. But I can just envision a day when he starts giving me a run for my money, or even consistently beating me. That's exciting. I can't wait.
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Spotlight!
Gj my bro.
You had boiled water at my house fuck
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Your right, playing strangers is either too random, or too predictable. It rarely finds that balance between attacking and countering that happens with an opponent you know and can anticipate...which is really where the fun happens and the reason playing a person is better than playing a CPU. great post
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On June 20 2010 01:27 travis wrote:ladders are only fun for winners or people trying to become winners (by winners I mean that's their goal.. to win and be the best)
I was just gonna say, I play the ladder to win and own random noobs and that's fun enough for me.
In fact most of my friends are terrible or worse than me and it's not fun to play with them either 1v1 or team games. I hate team games because I'm always the one carrying and it's not fun to carry in RTS like it is in DOTA or HoN or some other type of game.
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I pretty much only ever play my friends in almost any game. Playing randoms for personal improvement never occurred to me as a fun way to spend my free time. There's no sadistic pleasure in beating some faceless person over the internet (unless they rage... which I guess is kinda common).
This is also the reason I am bad (relative to competitive scene) at pretty much all the games I play .
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I don't like ladders too..
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Osaka27154 Posts
On June 18 2010 13:56 Plexa wrote:
Dare I say it, but my only good memories from SC2 beta are my epic 2v2 adventures with Mani D:
Same here brother ><
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I agree Chef. I've played about 100 games this season so far. Most were 1v1 (a few BGH games thrown in there for variety). Zero of those were ladder games. I just don't find ladder games interesting either..... I'd rather play someone I know.
Wish, I know you're gonna see this, I can probably play Tuesday night. You up for grinding some games, since I kinda dodged on you this weekend?
EDIT - Ella, when are we gonna have that Bo5 so I can stomp you 3-0 with 2-hatch muta again? XD
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EPT
