• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:51
CET 12:51
KST 20:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win
Tourneys
SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright
Brood War
General
sOs joins Best's team, Newcatsle University Rollback Netcode in Brood War SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Deus Ex 3!?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck? Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7652 users

Mass Queen (Day9 Daily #134, aired tonight)

Blogs > Zelniq
Post a Reply
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-11 05:58:57
June 11 2010 05:48 GMT
#1
I'd like to explain WTF happened since many who saw it are wondering some things

And if you left in the middle of the Daily, only watching 1 or both of the starting fail games (and I fear some may have done this!), I'm embarrassed and also a bit sad that you didn't get to watch the good following replays

Concerning the Day[9] Daily #134 - Mass Queens in ZvZ

Why did you send him some poor replays along with the decent ones?

Patch 16 made the patch 15/16 replays un-watchable, so I was unable to know which game was which, nor watch them. Also, I found out that he was going to do a Daily on this topic about 10 mins before the livecast. Although I knew he was going to do a daily on it eventually, I had NO idea he'd do it today, especially not with the 1 replay of the game we had on ladder that was, IMO, a poor exhibition of mass queens. (I was going to send the good replays after a Patch-15-Rep-Fix was found) So with 5 mins left before he went Live, I messaged him and found out he just got a program to load up the patch 15 replays, and so I just sent the entire replay session, and he aired random ones without being able to watch any beforehand.


Explain how those first 2 replays that Day showed, happened?
First you gotta understand, Dimaga and I had already practiced 50+ ZvZ's for World Cup and already both knew how strong queens were in ZvZ. The key of this practice session was not to test the strength of queens, but rather to find a strong build that made them a very strong choice, or the BEST choice, on that map. As you can guess and can see, the biggest vulnerabilities is the early game and trying to protect your expansion+main. Fast banelings, zerglings, any sort of aggression are all valid concerns and 1 slipup, or if you ever leave ramp to Spawn Larva, speedlings can instantly zip up and win the game.

We quickly found out that if the 1 base-ing (Dimaga) player simply gets an expansion quickly enough without being pressured early, he can easily fend off the queen attack with mass spines + mutas. So the key is not only to defend early game but also to prevent the other from expanding properly, and what timings and manner to do it.

In game 1, I focused so much on defense (dimaga is probably the scariest aggressive zerg I've ever seen, you didn't get to really see it in those replays but the others he kept raping me with excellent zergling use or muta use), that I forgot to make a roach warren so it was really pointless to continue as now he could FREELY expand and easily hold the expo with mass spines.

In game 2
, my timing for roaches were way too late, and his muta timing surprised me as well. I don't remember exactly why it was so late, perhaps a mistake from me or perhaps just did not understand the timing. And once I was unable to kill the expo, yet again we knew he could defend the queens and so we just restarted.


What happened in games 3&4?
Game 3: This time Dimaga made the mistakes and tried to expo way too quickly, and my roaches this time were on time and able to quickly crush it, and also get some drones. He also loses a few mutas while trying to harass. Given these circumstances it was very easy to win with Queens.

Game 4: This is the final game we played, I played the best I'd done so far and had all the timings down very well, and covered any vulnerabilities in defense. He also played fairly well and yet was unable to really do much to me. My roaches and timing gave him quite a scare and did a bit of damage too, as going by what he could see, he had no idea roaches were coming until I started sending them out. This delayed his expo enough and my build was going strong and so that cleanly put me in a great position.


Does this work on maps other than Steppes of War?
First I'd like to say that I don't think this is the strongest build when both players fast expo, though some variant is still scary. It's ideally used vs 1 base openings.

The timing attack push I imagine will work fine on close positions LT/Metal, as well as Scrap Station. However scrap station would require a totally different opening as 2 queens cannot block the ramp, so you'd probably need to get very fast baneling (after expo), or possibly roach but that seems weaker and harder to defend. However most good zergs will fast expo on Scrap anyway, if not then break down the rocks later and do a similar push. Hard to defend his expo if he by then has one up. But we only tested this on Steppes so this is mostly just speculation.

What makes Queens such effective attacking units?
Consider the stats. 175 HP, 1 armor, 4 (x2) Ground damage, 9 Air damage (long range!), both with decent firing rates. Receives same upgrades as roaches/hydras. NOT Armored! nor Light! (hydras get RAAAPED by banelings!) 150 minerals, ZERO gas! An antiair unit costing zero gas for zerg, can you understand how important that is. Excellent Transfusion spell, and with large numbers, and @ 50 Energy, you can cast it SOOOO many times. Creep tumor synergizes nicely, and you can Spawn Larvae with a newly made queen RIGHT as it pops, which is almost perfect spawn larvae timing. And only requires spawning pool, doesnt use larvae to morph, zerg's only early game anti-air is now an effective antiair unit.


But what are the drawbacks of Queens?
You cannot make them from larvae, you can only build them up gradually and also cannot upgrade to Lair while doing so. They move almost as slow as Overlords when off of creep, and on creep are still the slowest ground zerg unit. If you accidentally lose some of them, you're kind of screwed as you have to slowly rebuild them. If zerg ever gets enough mutas, it's basically impossible to use Transfusion if he focuses them down almost instantly. They stop attacking for a bit when casting Transfusion. In the mid-late or late game, with multiple expos from both players, the queens immobility makes them horrible for both defending and being


What are the ideal defenses to combat this mass queen/roach timing attack?
MASSSSS spines (zerglings are horrible, banelings horrible, roaches weak due to transfusion support), along with preferrably mass mutalisk support. Playing the 1 baseing player style that Dimaga did is certainly no easy task, you must have strong timings, especially when to drone and make units, good control.

ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Shuffleus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Australia764 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-11 08:46:16
June 11 2010 08:46 GMT
#2
I feel a need to comment and bump this, as it is a wonderful strategy and greatly under-utilised/underexposed. It certainly gave me ideas on how build on my ZvZ. A must watch / read for any aspiring Zerg player.

Additionally, Very nice execution in that 4th game Zelniq. (Only caught the 3rd and 4th games)
| QuanticGaming.com | There is no greater feeling then to find order in the chaos, as you slip the puzzle pieces in place.
XFire
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States131 Posts
June 11 2010 08:56 GMT
#3
This was a cool new perspective of ZvZ, I might try it when the beta pops back up.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23465 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-11 11:12:25
June 11 2010 11:12 GMT
#4
Oh god I thought i was cool with my queen roach infestor with a couple hydra timing push [vs baneling ling into muta into expo] now looks like you guys came up with a better one.
aka Teutonica
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-11 15:38:34
June 11 2010 15:37 GMT
#5
On June 11 2010 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
Oh god I thought i was cool with my queen roach infestor with a couple hydra timing push [vs baneling ling into muta into expo] now looks like you guys came up with a better one.

queen/roach/infestor sounds pretty good too.. queens are good in zvz at later stages in the game too, and fast fungal + hydras are amazing vs mutalisks so I wouldnt sell your build short. especially if you can hit at a timing when they havent gotten baneling speed yet. your biggest concern probably would be a well spread speed baneling flank with many mutas to outmuscle your queens, possibly with or without several spine crawlers. but your push definitely sounds scary for that kind of build. if you havent started an expo yet then i guess all he needs is to mass TONS of spines and then he's ok as well
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
June 11 2010 16:01 GMT
#6
lol, a few weeks back there was a thread about alternatives to baneling/ling. Someone said 'how about queens with transfusion' and I basically told him to be quiet if he had no clue what he was talking about. Now I feel like an idiot and an ass. :p
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
w1pe0ut
Profile Joined December 2007
Canada35 Posts
June 11 2010 17:37 GMT
#7
definitely going to check this out when i get home from work =)
General-Gouda
Profile Joined June 2010
United States45 Posts
June 18 2010 19:29 GMT
#8
Is this only viable against another Zerg or can it be useful in other match-ups as well? This seems like an excellent way to defend your base after a failed rush into your opponents base. Especially against early air rushes (i.e. voidrays).
The Duck goes, "Quack!" The Cow goes, "MOO!" The Ultralisk goes, "OMNOMNOMNOM!"
No_eL
Profile Joined July 2007
Chile1438 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-16 23:41:45
July 16 2010 23:40 GMT
#9
i send you a pm, could you post a replay performing and winning with this build?? its a really awesome way of play. And i dont like watch day9 vods, he is so ugly =(
Beat after beat i will become stronger.
Hati
Profile Joined July 2010
France15 Posts
July 28 2010 02:26 GMT
#10
A replay would me nice
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
August 04 2010 03:43 GMT
#11
Has someone added this build or build order to liquipedia?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IntoTheTV X SOOP
20:00
Premier - Quarterfinals
ByuN vs SHINLIVE!
Clem vs MaxPax
herO vs Rogue
CranKy Ducklings SOOP69
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Rex 27
ByuN (SOOP) 18
EnDerr 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 27624
Calm 4620
Rain 2338
Horang2 797
Mini 558
BeSt 462
FanTaSy 345
actioN 177
Stork 173
Last 155
[ Show more ]
Hyun 151
ggaemo 125
Mind 104
Leta 97
Pusan 71
sSak 62
hero 38
Free 37
scan(afreeca) 35
Sharp 35
sOs 35
Killer 34
Creator 31
Yoon 27
Classic 25
Movie 24
Bale 23
Aegong 19
zelot 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Barracks 16
soO 16
Sacsri 15
yabsab 11
Dota 2
XcaliburYe266
Other Games
B2W.Neo746
Lowko424
Fuzer 219
Mew2King88
NeuroSwarm57
ViBE33
Railgan21
Organizations
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 779
Counter-Strike
PGL100
Other Games
ComeBackTV 82
[ Show 9 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
IPSL
5h 9m
WorsT vs nOmaD
Dewalt vs andersOn
AI Arena Tournament
7h 9m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
23h 9m
IPSL
1d 5h
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Replay Cast
1d 11h
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-05
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.