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On June 11 2010 11:14 Flaccid wrote:
You're absolutely right, of course. I have always found that cynicism is fashionable when you're younger but gets extremely tired as you start getting older, a little more thoughtful, and especially a lot more self-aware. Kind of like girls who make out with one-another.
I don't know if it's because breaking through cynicism requires some sort of earned perspective or if it's because when you get older you have enough stuff in your life to make you miserable without actively trying so out of spite.
Cynicism used to be a bonding apparatus with certain people, now I don't return their calls because I'm happy =[.
As I've grown older I've become even more cynical. Whether it's because I deal with the scum of the earth in my job or if it's because I've seen how truly evil people can be to one another or maybe it's because I see so many people not giving a shit about anything but themselves but it's certainly gotten worse.
I don't force this attitude on other people but yea, I am not a huge fan of our current greed driven society.
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On June 11 2010 12:58 cemlions wrote:
It might interest you to know that cynicism accurately defined was a school of thought a group of people in greece known as cynics. I'll quote the wiki article on it.
Cynicism (Greek: κυνισμός), in its original form, refers to the beliefs of an ancient school of Greek philosophers known as the Cynics (Greek: Κυνικοί, Latin: Cynici). Their philosophy was that the purpose of life was to live a life of Virtue in agreement with Nature. This meant rejecting all conventional desires for wealth, power, health, and fame, and by living a simple life free from all possessions. As reasoning creatures, people could gain happiness by rigorous training and by living in a way which was natural for humans. They believed that the world belonged equally to everyone, and that suffering was caused by false judgments of what was valuable and by the worthless customs and conventions which surrounded society.
If you look at the top of that article, it also provides a link to contemporary cynicism, instead of classic cynicism, so no, it is not more accurately defined as what you said. In fact, what you said is actually less accurate in the context of the OP.
Cynicism in the classic sense deals with rejection of conventional social values to find happiness in virtue.
Cynicism in the modern sense is a jaded rejection of society's values and ethics, because they were not seemingly upheld. A cynic basically thinks society has screwed them over and this can lead to strong negative responses towards any other members of society who did not seem betrayed.
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On June 11 2010 13:00 enzym wrote:
you make good observations and all that, just cycnicism isnt a weakness, its a step up. at the very least it is 100x better than being blinded by unfounded hope that things will turn out well when people continue to make the stupid decisions that made the world into the shithole that it is.
i prefer to be well informed and coherent instead of an optimist.
if you actually believe that you can change the world then go ahead. good luck to you. but dont call anyone who is too well informed for that weak.
i gave you five stars anyways, cause i did enjoy the read.
That's my main sort of gripe with the cynicism bit.
Not everything needs to be founded, or even observed or pondered. : ) I applaud those type for having an inquiring mind an wanting to know the "truth", but how much truth do your hands know?
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what RageOverdose said.
I believe I spent awhile in the piece trying to loosely define what I meant when I used the word cynicism. I most certainly did not mean 'healthy scientific skepticism' as some people have interpreted, nor did I mean 'realism'.
There's a gulf of difference between being realistic and being pessimistic, and I believe cynicism is an emotional reaction to realism that draws one towards pessimism. There's nothing inherently wrong with pessimism either, in my opinion, but when you start to revel in it- jibing at others, trying to bring their hopes down and joke negatively about peoples' attempts...that's when it becomes a bilious, vile substance coursing through your veins like venom.
And yes, there is a sea of ignorance, stupidity and violence out there, and it can easily drag any one of us down. But really as far as I've found, for every negative person out there, there is a counterpart positive person. And I really have noticed that if you bear a negative attitude towards life, you tend to attract negative people. Which only exacerbates your negativity.
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Nailed it.
It gets a lot harder to find optimistic people out there but when I do it's like a breathe of fresh air.
"To all the people watching, I can never ever thank you enough for the kindness to me, I'll think about it for the rest of my life. All I ask is one thing, and this is.. I'm asking this particularly of young people that watch: Please do not be cynical. I hate cynicism - for the record it's my least favorite quality, it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you, amazing things will happen." - Conan O' Brian
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On June 11 2010 13:46 Spiffeh wrote:
Nailed it.
It gets a lot harder to find optimistic people out there but when I do it's like a breathe of fresh air.
"To all the people watching, I can never ever thank you enough for the kindness to me, I'll think about it for the rest of my life. All I ask is one thing, and this is.. I'm asking this particularly of young people that watch: Please do not be cynical. I hate cynicism - for the record it's my least favorite quality, it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you, amazing things will happen." - Conan O' Brian
That's actually just so nice.....
He's right. Anything I've deeply enjoyed is a product of my working, and most of the time it's an offshoot of what I thought I was trying to work towards.
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On June 11 2010 13:46 Spiffeh wrote:
Nailed it.
It gets a lot harder to find optimistic people out there but when I do it's like a breathe of fresh air.
"To all the people watching, I can never ever thank you enough for the kindness to me, I'll think about it for the rest of my life. All I ask is one thing, and this is.. I'm asking this particularly of young people that watch: Please do not be cynical. I hate cynicism - for the record it's my least favorite quality, it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you, amazing things will happen." - Conan O' Brian
Holy shit, that is the best quote I've ever read. Thank you for posting that, I respect Conan 100x more now.
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On June 11 2010 13:00 enzym wrote:
if you actually believe that you can change the world then go ahead. good luck to you. but dont call anyone who is too well informed for that weak.
I just want to address this, but not from a combative angle, rather a clarification. I don't wish to rudely call anyone who disagrees with my point of view weak. And neither do I want to call people who are realistic about their life situations weak.
I truly believe that making fun of other peoples' faults is a coping mechanism people employ to deal (unsatisfactorily) with their own faults. 'Going on the attack' against life so to speak, looking outwards, to avoid having to look inwards. To me, that is running away from one's fears, which is probably a sign of weakness.
You could counter by saying that it is merely an evolutionary trait picked up through our ascent as a species, that we single out the faults of members in our tribe and establish pecking orders naturally as would apes...but I figure that we have the capability to transcend this petty cycle and deal with our faults in a far more direct way than insulting each other and making each other feel bad.
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On June 11 2010 13:55 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 13:00 enzym wrote:
if you actually believe that you can change the world then go ahead. good luck to you. but dont call anyone who is too well informed for that weak. I just want to address this, but not from a combative angle, rather a clarification. I don't wish to rudely call anyone who disagrees with my point of view weak. And neither do I want to call people who are realistic about their life situations weak. I truly believe that making fun of other peoples' faults is a coping mechanism people employ to deal (unsatisfactorily) with their own faults. 'Going on the attack' against life so to speak, looking outwards, to avoid having to look inwards. To me, that is running away from one's fears, which is probably a sign of weakness. You could counter by saying that it is merely an evolutionary trait picked up through our ascent as a species, that we single out the faults of members in our tribe and establish pecking orders naturally as would apes...but I figure that we have the capability to transcend this petty cycle and deal with our faults in a far more direct way than insulting each other and making each other feel bad.
+1ing that hard.
You can still be not a cynic, yet filter the bullshit out of your life. To me, struggling against trivial things is just a waste of energy. Sometimes it's fun to argue and have an intellectual war against a buddy / stranger, but never, never does anyone actual feel better for having ripped on someone.
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I think people forget House is miserable, cool, but fucking miserable.
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incorporated Conan quote into op 
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I liked this essay Great read.
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I agree. I see so many people simply giving up on themselves and embracing the hopelessness that life may seem like.
Life is too short to waste on unnecessarily cynicism. I try to find the positive out of every experience and I realize that by being a good person I could influence others to become better people.
The worlds looks bleak at times, but there's always hope. It's what keeps and will always keep the human spirit alive.
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On June 11 2010 13:28 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 12:58 cemlions wrote:
It might interest you to know that cynicism accurately defined was a school of thought a group of people in greece known as cynics. I'll quote the wiki article on it.
Cynicism (Greek: κυνισμός), in its original form, refers to the beliefs of an ancient school of Greek philosophers known as the Cynics (Greek: Κυνικοί, Latin: Cynici). Their philosophy was that the purpose of life was to live a life of Virtue in agreement with Nature. This meant rejecting all conventional desires for wealth, power, health, and fame, and by living a simple life free from all possessions. As reasoning creatures, people could gain happiness by rigorous training and by living in a way which was natural for humans. They believed that the world belonged equally to everyone, and that suffering was caused by false judgments of what was valuable and by the worthless customs and conventions which surrounded society. If you look at the top of that article, it also provides a link to contemporary cynicism, instead of classic cynicism, so no, it is not more accurately defined as what you said. In fact, what you said is actually less accurate in the context of the OP. Cynicism in the classic sense deals with rejection of conventional social values to find happiness in virtue. Cynicism in the modern sense is a jaded rejection of society's values and ethics, because they were not seemingly upheld. A cynic basically thinks society has screwed them over and this can lead to strong negative responses towards any other members of society who did not seem betrayed. [QUOTE]On June 11 2010 13:28 RageOverdose wrote:
I do not agree with that. What I was trying to say is that IMO cynicism is not of a negative quality. I consider a true cynic to be one who attempting be happy and virtuos , while recognizing the qualities of society the do not agree with, and strive to not participate or be of; not one who broods, and envelops themself in past pains by deciding to stay with with the devices society offers (drugs, junk food,ect ect), and at the same time blame society for all the problems incurred, instead of recognizing their freedom of choice. I think the modern definition is a inappropriate, and so I chose to state the accurate definition according to what I think so everyone can stop hating on cynicism as they know it. Why say fuck cynics, what does that schieve other than alienating them? I think listening to their grievances and responding in a objective manner is a better choice.
I get what this guy is saying in his post, and for the most part I agree with it, but like I said I think cynicism is being inappropriatley used, and so I quoted the classical definition. I don't think that using a blanket word is a good idea.
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Baa?21244 Posts
All of this is based on the assumption that "negativity" is an undesirable quality. I question this. Why is it inherently bad to be negative and questioning?
If you're cynical, you're more likely to identify problems with the world around you. When you identify these problems, you're more motivated to fix them, because you're not as naive as to believe everything will just work out around you, and that you need to actively approach it.
The assumption that you have to be happy/positive/trusting for the good of society/yourself is stupid anyways.
How cynical of me, eh?
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For me it depends how you react or materialize those cynical thoughts. People that are witty/funny/helpful about it are OK. If you get whiney and bring the mood down type of person its not good.
All in all I think its very good to have a healthy amount of cynicism. Too much of anything is bad, even optimism.
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It's very difficult not to be cynical, in a strict sense.
For example, NBC pulled all of Conan's clips off the internet, including his farewell speech. And even though I have the cynicism quote, I'm sure around half my posts sound cynical.
But I'd like to think there's following the spirit of not being cynical, even while failing to adhere to it to the letter.
quote]When you identify these problems, you're more motivated to fix them[/quote]
Actually, this is where the spirit of it comes in. A truly cynical person would not be motivated to fix it, they would just take pleasure in complaining and feed theirselves on their superiority over the problems.
I'm not sure if this exactly what I believe to be cynical, but it's the best conclusion I can come up with in a short period of time.
I think 1a2a3a protoss is easy is a good example.
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Props for the nice read.
Cynicism and general pessimism in the UK though is probably more like a natural defense. If you subscribe to a tabloid or newspaper, there's a general feeling of 'this country is going to the dogs'. There's good hard facts in there every single day that just gives you a :| face. The owners of a historical castle had to pay out more than £50,000 in legal costs and damages to a woman trespasser who was injured as she fell into the moat at 2am. There is an extremely good chance Osama's grandson is going to be born a British citizen. All the politicking fat cats are going to do their thing, rake in money they don't deserve, and give the middle finger to everyone else. If you asked 100 British today whether the country is going to shit, I'm guessing you'll get 80%+ affirmative responses.
Ordinary people like you and me can't touch these things. They're part of a culture, or a group, or some upper echelon of humanity that will ordinary people can't affect change in. You can campaign and yell and tear your clothes in the street and get a million fans on Facebook and nothing would be done about it. So we talk about it and shake our heads, add a "what's next?" or some kind of comment about "these days" and move on. It makes us feel good to hear comedy based on social and contemporary issues. You can't do anything about it so you joke about it and pretend that you have defeated it with your biting wit. It's one of the few sane ways to deal with disappointment and despair, and the feeling of helplessness that comes naturally upon witnessing an injustice.
The tabloids and papers make their living on this, trying to confirm our worldview that everything in this world can only get worse. It's a perpetual hunger that feeds on itself. So we can shake our head and move on. As journalism goes it's probably junk food, but it tastes fucking good. And it sells like crazy.
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Cynicism is immature behavior which paradoxically occurs only when you're old enough to have enough intellect to actually produce it.
This quote was one of the steps I needed to realize cynicism is not cool:
It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.
- Theodore Roosevelt
Also, one of the seven advice of Rumi (13th century Islam poet) touches this:
"In generosity and helping others
be like the river.
In compassion and grace
be like the sun.
In concealing others' faults
be like the night.
In anger and fury
be like the dead.
In modesty and humility
be like the soil.
In tolerance
be like the ocean.
Either you appear as you are or
be as you appear."
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EPT
