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Returning to SC1

Blogs > Salv
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1 2 3 Next All
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
June 09 2010 03:57 GMT
#1
Seeing as how the SC II beta has gone away for a little away, there is a gap now where one's Starcraft fix can only be Brood War. I was thinking today whether I should go back and play some iCCup, just as something to do, and the following thoughts came to me:
  • Now that I haven't touched SC BW in months and months, and I had replaced it with SC II, Brood War feels fresh. The thought of logging on and playing seems like it would like playing a new game entirely.
  • I can't explain it exactly, but I feel like I am a different RTS player after playing SC II, as if playing SC II has changed the way I think through out the game. This relates to my first point, where the thought of playing again seems fresh.
  • I personally, and I know others feel the same, feel like they are better after coming back from a long lay-off, like their ceiling has grown and that there is more potential there.

I can easily say that I wouldn't be staying with BW when SC II comes out, (unless they fix NO issues with B.net 2.0, in which case I am boycotting it) but I get the feeling that going back to SC 1 would be like a new experience.

Similar feelings amongst any one? Opposite feelings maybe?

***
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
June 09 2010 03:58 GMT
#2
Salv, I feel like pancakes.
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 04:02:30
June 09 2010 04:01 GMT
#3
Let's play Salv, why aren't you on vent. I'm really wanting some BW soon! Btw I'm going to east coast soon... can't play anymore Borderlands unless you dudes get on! (I have finals this week but I don't have any borderline grades so basically I have half-days all week)
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 04:11:24
June 09 2010 04:09 GMT
#4
I felt like you, then I played a few games and changed my mind, I've already recorded my thoughts (from another thread, kind of long):

+ Show Spoiler +
I'll keep this short, because a post like this is not worthy of a long tirade. During SC2 beta I was able to play at a high level fairly quickly, and noticed my apm was reaching an average of 180 in my solo games where I put in some effort. Apm is not measured to actual game speed in SC2, so its safe to assume my actual apm was 200-220 apm. In Warcraft 3, I was a pretty low apm player, 160-180 usually. In Starcraft: Brood War was more around 140-160.

It kind of let me confused how I could be so bad at Brood War STILL after almost 2 years of "casual" play when I was able to get to upper echelon ability in SC2 with no effort. Yea, SC2 is ez mode but why can't I use all my apm to conquer BW's "high skill ceiling." Should Single Building Selection and Lack of AutoMine really make that much of a difference?

No, it's because of everything BUT that. I tried playing the game again the last few days and was reminded why the game can be so difficult, because the ability to gain skill is not limited by your mechanical ability, your strategical ability, or anything in between. It's limited by your ability to overcome the horrendous AI and BUGS that plague it. Since some of you have bad memory's, I'm going to list all the @@*! that happens in less than 10 games that reduce my apm from 200 to 140. This was everything I encountered in just 6 games. SIX GAMES WTF.

1) Rebound clicking too slow, command doesn't get issued
2) Money spent AFTER construction, not when issued
3) Dragoons not attacking when animation cool down is reached
4) Dragoons not moving at all
5) Dragoons not caring you want them to unbug while spamming H or S
6) Dragoon pathing
7) All unit pathing
8) Worker pathing
9) Archon not moving where I tell it to
10) Archon jumping through minerals
11) Reavers on attack move running striaght into cannons
12) Reavers shooting duds
13) Reavers not even attacking with 6 lings in front of them and full clip of scarabs
14) @@*! randomly missing YES ALL UNITS HAVE RANDOM CHANCE TO MISS WHEN NOT EVEN NEAR A HIGH GROUND APPARENTLY
15) Iccup decides not to give lan latency even tho everyone has antihack
16) People dropping every game on iccup
17) Only south americans ever online on iccup, they LAG
18) Units getting stuck when they come out of gateways
19) SCVS being in your way when you want to build
20) Having to wait an hour for ur damn probe to build a pylon. You want to warp in 2 pylons or multiple gateways? Wait 5 seconds for each command after you tell it to warp one in if you want any organization.

Example of why am I a bad terrible C- Protoss:

You have 14 goons you want to move down a ramp. You right click the area near your natural. Suddenly one of them bugs on your ramp, You press H on it then tell it to move down the ramp. The rest of your goons are all of your base now running in circles. You tell them to go back down but one of the ones you grouped before is coming back up, you try to send it away but its bugging out and they're all bugging out and u want them to just go down your god damn ramp. But more goons are coming out of ur gatways that u swear were placed perfect and then they bug out the goons even more trying to get somewhere the other goons want to get to and they have AI bugging war unless they're already stuck between your buildings. There's 40 seconds of you clicking your goons all over the place. Then a ton of lings pour in and u cant even micro your goons cuz of 250 ms delay and half of them arent even attacking cuz Iccup doesnt even want to give u latency even tho u both have Antihack after u move them back and ur reaver decides to just walk around instead of shooting at anything even though u told it to attack move. So yea u 1a2a3a but u didnt left go of left click before u pressed 3a so group 2 of ur goons arent even attacking and everything else is bugging everywhere going bonkers. Well theres 140 seconds of you trying to micro your units and NOTHING working and you did manage to hit your macro cycles. Then the game freezes cuz ur using Windows 7.
Kwidowmaker
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada978 Posts
June 09 2010 04:25 GMT
#5
On June 09 2010 13:09 PokePill wrote:
I felt like you, then I played a few games and changed my mind, I've already recorded my thoughts (from another thread, kind of long):

+ Show Spoiler +
I'll keep this short, because a post like this is not worthy of a long tirade. During SC2 beta I was able to play at a high level fairly quickly, and noticed my apm was reaching an average of 180 in my solo games where I put in some effort. Apm is not measured to actual game speed in SC2, so its safe to assume my actual apm was 200-220 apm. In Warcraft 3, I was a pretty low apm player, 160-180 usually. In Starcraft: Brood War was more around 140-160.

It kind of let me confused how I could be so bad at Brood War STILL after almost 2 years of "casual" play when I was able to get to upper echelon ability in SC2 with no effort. Yea, SC2 is ez mode but why can't I use all my apm to conquer BW's "high skill ceiling." Should Single Building Selection and Lack of AutoMine really make that much of a difference?

No, it's because of everything BUT that. I tried playing the game again the last few days and was reminded why the game can be so difficult, because the ability to gain skill is not limited by your mechanical ability, your strategical ability, or anything in between. It's limited by your ability to overcome the horrendous AI and BUGS that plague it. Since some of you have bad memory's, I'm going to list all the @@*! that happens in less than 10 games that reduce my apm from 200 to 140. This was everything I encountered in just 6 games. SIX GAMES WTF.

1) Rebound clicking too slow, command doesn't get issued
2) Money spent AFTER construction, not when issued
3) Dragoons not attacking when animation cool down is reached
4) Dragoons not moving at all
5) Dragoons not caring you want them to unbug while spamming H or S
6) Dragoon pathing
7) All unit pathing
8) Worker pathing
9) Archon not moving where I tell it to
10) Archon jumping through minerals
11) Reavers on attack move running striaght into cannons
12) Reavers shooting duds
13) Reavers not even attacking with 6 lings in front of them and full clip of scarabs
14) @@*! randomly missing YES ALL UNITS HAVE RANDOM CHANCE TO MISS WHEN NOT EVEN NEAR A HIGH GROUND APPARENTLY
15) Iccup decides not to give lan latency even tho everyone has antihack
16) People dropping every game on iccup
17) Only south americans ever online on iccup, they LAG
18) Units getting stuck when they come out of gateways
19) SCVS being in your way when you want to build
20) Having to wait an hour for ur damn probe to build a pylon. You want to warp in 2 pylons or multiple gateways? Wait 5 seconds for each command after you tell it to warp one in if you want any organization.

Example of why am I a bad terrible C- Protoss:

You have 14 goons you want to move down a ramp. You right click the area near your natural. Suddenly one of them bugs on your ramp, You press H on it then tell it to move down the ramp. The rest of your goons are all of your base now running in circles. You tell them to go back down but one of the ones you grouped before is coming back up, you try to send it away but its bugging out and they're all bugging out and u want them to just go down your god damn ramp. But more goons are coming out of ur gatways that u swear were placed perfect and then they bug out the goons even more trying to get somewhere the other goons want to get to and they have AI bugging war unless they're already stuck between your buildings. There's 40 seconds of you clicking your goons all over the place. Then a ton of lings pour in and u cant even micro your goons cuz of 250 ms delay and half of them arent even attacking cuz Iccup doesnt even want to give u latency even tho u both have Antihack after u move them back and ur reaver decides to just walk around instead of shooting at anything even though u told it to attack move. So yea u 1a2a3a but u didnt left go of left click before u pressed 3a so group 2 of ur goons arent even attacking and everything else is bugging everywhere going bonkers. Well theres 140 seconds of you trying to micro your units and NOTHING working and you did manage to hit your macro cycles. Then the game freezes cuz ur using Windows 7.


Weird, I often consider SCBW to be the pinnacle of good UI. Ignoring all the limitations it's plagued with, it just feels right when I played
Kk.
Rkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1278 Posts
June 09 2010 04:27 GMT
#6
On June 09 2010 13:09 PokePill wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
You have 14 goons you want to move down a ramp. You right click the area near your natural. Suddenly one of them bugs on your ramp, You press H on it then tell it to move down the ramp. The rest of your goons are all of your base now running in circles. You tell them to go back down but one of the ones you grouped before is coming back up, you try to send it away but its bugging out and they're all bugging out and u want them to just go down your god damn ramp. But more goons are coming out of ur gatways that u swear were placed perfect and then they bug out the goons even more trying to get somewhere the other goons want to get to and they have AI bugging war unless they're already stuck between your buildings. There's 40 seconds of you clicking your goons all over the place. Then a ton of lings pour in and u cant even micro your goons cuz of 250 ms delay and half of them arent even attacking cuz Iccup doesnt even want to give u latency even tho u both have Antihack after u move them back and ur reaver decides to just walk around instead of shooting at anything even though u told it to attack move. So yea u 1a2a3a but u didnt left go of left click before u pressed 3a so group 2 of ur goons arent even attacking and everything else is bugging everywhere going bonkers. Well theres 140 seconds of you trying to micro your units and NOTHING working and you did manage to hit your macro cycles. Then the game freezes cuz ur using Windows 7.


lol soooooo true. I've played 10 or so games in the last week or so and of all the things that could go wrong like not being able to stay under 3000 minerals with 10 gateways, harrass, mines, or anything else, this wins out
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
June 09 2010 04:40 GMT
#7
Well, yes the old Starcraft flaws will still be there, and I suppose they would be more apparent or frustrating coming from SC II, (auto-mine, anyone?) but I am speaking more about taking a new perspective on the game. I feel that I would be playing the game with new eyes, maybe that's ridiculous and won't be the case, but I have this feeling that it would be like seeing things in a new light. It's pretty hard to make this argument when I don't have any specific examples, but a few things from SC II that might change the way I play SC BW:
  • One base play is much more common in SC II.
  • There isn't a lot of economic harass in SC II.
  • There is a greater focus on micro in SC II (for Protoss at least) because macroing is so much easier.

Maybe I would be focusing more on micro due to recent habits, or opening with more risky one base builds rather than a macro fast expand style of play. Those are the best examples I have.
LuDwig-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Italy1143 Posts
June 09 2010 04:57 GMT
#8
I will not open SC in this period..I am really addicted to that game and the only way to save my soul is keeping the cd closed in some closet
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120015&currentpage=98<--Search the HotBid's Post
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
June 09 2010 05:17 GMT
#9
On June 09 2010 13:40 Salv wrote:
Well, yes the old Starcraft flaws will still be there, and I suppose they would be more apparent or frustrating coming from SC II, (auto-mine, anyone?) but I am speaking more about taking a new perspective on the game. I feel that I would be playing the game with new eyes, maybe that's ridiculous and won't be the case, but I have this feeling that it would be like seeing things in a new light. It's pretty hard to make this argument when I don't have any specific examples, but a few things from SC II that might change the way I play SC BW:
  • One base play is much more common in SC II.
  • There isn't a lot of economic harass in SC II.
  • There is a greater focus on micro in SC II (for Protoss at least) because macroing is so much easier.

Maybe I would be focusing more on micro due to recent habits, or opening with more risky one base builds rather than a macro fast expand style of play. Those are the best examples I have.


That's how SC1 was in the first few years too! Lots of 1 base play and less macro oriented builds (see zerg before 12 hatch, before muta stacking, see protoss before bisu build, forge fast expand and others, if you want to go back even earlier some maps weren't even very suited for macro/fast expand play). As the game matures and the skill of the top players (ie. pros) increases, SC2 will probably converge on a similar level of macro oriented play as SC1 did.
tarpman
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada720 Posts
June 09 2010 05:21 GMT
#10
On June 09 2010 13:09 PokePill wrote:
2) Money spent AFTER construction, not when issued

Intentional, not a bug. This way and the SC2 way each have pros and cons; I wouldn't consider either of them necessarily better than the other.
11) Reavers on attack move running striaght into cannons

Did it have any scarabs?
14) @@*! randomly missing YES ALL UNITS HAVE RANDOM CHANCE TO MISS WHEN NOT EVEN NEAR A HIGH GROUND APPARENTLY

Intentional, not a bug.
15) Iccup decides not to give lan latency even tho everyone has antihack

The antihack was updated with the start of the new season. LAN latency isn't activated unless everyone in the game is running the current version.
17) Only south americans ever online on iccup, they LAG

yeah
18) Units getting stuck when they come out of gateways

This happens in SC2 as well. (hi whitera!) in fact it's even easier to have happen in some cases since SC2 buildings block more than SC ones.
Then the game freezes cuz ur using Windows 7.

Hasn't happened to me. :/
Saving the world, one kilobyte at a time.
sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
June 09 2010 05:24 GMT
#11
lol

After coming back to SC:BW I remember what SC2 doesn't have.

Mines and Lurkers..
Can you feel the rush?
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25997 Posts
June 09 2010 05:28 GMT
#12
It sucks. I'm done with BW. It's basically unplayable to me.
Moderator
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
June 09 2010 05:39 GMT
#13
On June 09 2010 14:28 Chill wrote:
It sucks. I'm done with BW. It's basically unplayable to me.


Man I don't know how we're going to survive until Beta comes back up and/or official release.
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
June 09 2010 05:42 GMT
#14
On June 09 2010 14:28 Chill wrote:
It sucks. I'm done with BW. It's basically unplayable to me.


I'm afraid of this, I will find out tomorrow when I log on to play some ICCup. There is definitely a lot of interface and gameplay changes that SC II introduced that IDK if I can do with out.
snotboogie
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia3550 Posts
June 09 2010 05:45 GMT
#15
I went back for a few games. That shit is just archaic now. Cannot play.

Farewell Brood War.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 05:50:59
June 09 2010 05:47 GMT
#16
That's why i enjoy broodwar more than Sc2. I'm always busy and it is much more challenging. Sc2 feels bland compared to bw. Especially late game >.<
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
June 09 2010 05:49 GMT
#17
I love Brood War, the game is way more fun than SC2 :l
Writerptrk
wiesel
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany727 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 06:24:27
June 09 2010 06:16 GMT
#18
I only care about spectating at the moment. And Broodwar is a lot more entertaining to watch for me. Not cause the players are better, Bw just looks a lot clearer and is better to follow in my view.

Playing sc2 is pretty fun but i don't like the bnet regional lock and knowing Blizzard balance patches i can lean back till expansion 2 maybe then it's balanced. If i really consider learning it i wont waste my time now if everything changes sooner or later anyways. I will just play some UMS or casually with friends until the game is finished with the last expansion.
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
June 09 2010 06:21 GMT
#19
i'll play it for some fun. don't have the PC to run SC2 smooth so i'm stuck with older games.
I am not good with quotes
zZygote
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada898 Posts
June 09 2010 06:41 GMT
#20
I've probably played about 5 games with friends I know... and I must say its quite refreshing.

- First 3 games were against my D+ friend who i might say hates SC2, but I kinda deserved losing @ his game (compared to me on SC2, it was his payback)

- Last 2 games were against my D- friend who I try to get to play iCCup more often with me as a practice partner, it was a fun match, although ending under 10 minutes...

I have a renewed respect for SC1 players because the mechanics seem so prehistoric compared to SC2, but I must say SC2 has made me such a lazy player... I mean my APM was being limited by SC2's mechanics, and in SC1 I feel so much more freedom.

I'll want to play more BW now that I've started, this is an excellent time to play while Phase 2 is going to be a while.
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