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Edit: After reading several posts in this blog, it seems people are too stupid to realize that I was ranting about why people cry about cheesing and not ranting as to why people cheese.
Why do people do it, especially in the diamond level leagues?
Instead you should stop complaining about cheesing and accept that it is just part of the game. In a game of war there's no "no rush" or "don't attack me until I an get equal army" or "no fair I didn't see that coming." I really don't like how people cry about losing to a cheese or get set back hard at the start of the match. It's even more embarrassing when someone wins by cheesing (whether it ended the match right away or not) and the loser says "you cheesed your win."
Do I really need to remind all you whiners out there that this is a strategy game where harassing the enemy and/or putting pressure on them early on is a very crucial tactic? The element of surprise is something that every player desires (I don't see why you wouldn't, to be honest). At the same time, when you cheese someone you force them to adapt and bend to your will (most of the time); again, who wouldn't want that power over the enemy?
Let's say we're in World War III where everyone is armed with weapons of mass destruction. Obviously no one wants to get hit with one, nor wants to see one be used in general, so one country would send in a special force of men to preemptively (ahead of time) sneak into the enemy territory and prevent them from attacking first. So say the special force manages to neutralize the enemy's weapons somehow, which ultimately lead to them losing the war, it's not like the enemy is going to say "no fair, you took out our weapons before we could use them; you only won cause you cheesed us."
So whiners out there, next time you bitch and moan, remember this..
Face the fact that you just got outplayed and couldn't handle the pressure or counter it effectively.
..or get the fuck out of the diamond leagues!
Furthermore, there's a little something called scouting, too. Use it. All the professional players do it (ie. WhiteRa) and if you're in the diamond league you should be well-trained in the art of it (you're supposed to be good enough to know what to expect, at least with proper scouting). That's also a part of the game, or is scouting an unfair and cheap way to play too?
The cheeser them-self is already taking a high risk (usually an all-in strategy) already so if their attack works they should justly be rewarded for it.
/rant
 
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You should be thankful the cheeses get 10x more sophisticated playing in tournaments so you need to be able to defend the horribly executed stuff they do in diamond league.
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I guess my thread title is a little misleading. I'm not myself crying about being cheesed.
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Cheese is good. It balances greedy builds, and punishes 15pool/16hat or 14hat builds. If you get greed with economy, you should lose to rushes. It's simple. Otherwise, the game's not working right.
So, if you're losing to cheese, you should look within yourself for reasons why you lost, as opposed to raging and calling your opponent a no-skill noob. Because in my experience, the hardest thing to do in SC is teching and macroing while not getting reapers surrounded by probes.
Cheesing is legitimate. It should be done more often. Standard play is fine, but who wants to play over 9000 standard games? Do new things and change it up. Knowing how to cheese is an essential skill in being a good and well-rounded player. I wish people would cheese more, rather than less.
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I think people rage about it because it takes away from their comfort level of standard play. I myself do not cheese often (its good to mix up your play style imo with some cheese). Hell I got cannon rushed last game I played (didn't pay attention to my main haha) I just went with it and ended up winning what became a rather long game.
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the feeling of beating up on the horribly executed cheeses played by most diamond leaguers isnt very satisfying. the feeling of beating up on well executed cheeses, however, makes me feel all warm inside ^_^
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WHY DO PEOPLE DO IT?
I think that your argument is a fallacy.
A match that survives the early game will occur only if it could not have been ended early on (via cheese).
Amongst the better players, they get to the point whilst playing amongst themselves where they know that if they try to cheese, their opponent will be able to handle it and see it coming via their scouting abilities. Therefore, they make the assumption that a cheese will not work and merely resort to harrassment and containment so that they can delay the actual battle for later. This is the only reason that cheeses do not happen as often anymore — if it happens to you, it is because your opponent decided that it would work. If you want it to stop happening to you, it is necessary to learn how to defend against it.
To put it another way...
If there is an opportunity to win, a better player will always take it. When the beta first began, matches barely lasted longer than 5 minutes on average (in my personal opinion, from all of the streams I've been watching). The only reason that matches last longer than that nowadays is because those people have learned to handle these cheeses, and so players make the implicit assumption that they cannot pull it off (whether it be because of their knowledge of the other player's skill or their scouting information). Thus they play more conservatively.
And so this is precisely how these things always evolve, regardless of game or situation (even in real life you can make the analogy).
This is why I think that the reason behind your complaints are a fallacy.
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Like all others, I keep telling everyone scouting is the best anti-cheese
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Cheese makes the game fun.
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why does spartan say pointless things in game to people, which could be considered badmanner, and then cry / complain when he loses the 2v2, not say gg , complain, and then make this thread completely contradicting everything that he does?
Oh wait it's spartan, makes total sense.
remember our 2v2 spartan where you were really bm making all kinds of stupid comments ? because i do ^^
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On June 01 2010 05:06 TelecOm1 wrote:
why does spartan say pointless things in game to people, which could be considered badmanner, and then cry / complain when he loses the 2v2, not say gg , complain, and then make this thread completely contradicting everything that he does?
Oh wait it's spartan, makes total sense.
remember our 2v2 spartan where you were really bm making all kinds of stupid comments ? because i do ^^
Why does Telecom pretend to be gm in his 10 threads apologizing for his BM, then turn around and make posts like this. Spartan has done 100x for the Starcraft community what you have (even if fastest isn't main-stream on TL).
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spartan and telecom are two of the most annoying scrubs on bw/sc2, both cheese, both cry/talk shit. Perfect thread to illustrate this.
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lol i was joking around w/ spartan but yes..... I know people I know. I'm a scrub on SC2 and BW, but when I beat you........What does that make you? D=
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I have no issues with rushes. I have serious issue with "cheese". (And yes, I know we all have different definitions of cheese).
For example...I was playing a zerg opponent last night. Because I live in great fear of the ling rushes, I use one of my initial 6 SCV's to go scout. (2 person map, cant remember which one at the moment). I find what was probably a 6 or 7 pool.
So I pull the SCV back, and since I almost assume a rush in my silver league, I was prepared. I had one SCV on the supply depot, another on the barracks, and the first rush of 4 lings came right as the supply depot & barracks finished. No opprotunity to finish the wall, no opprotunity to build a unit other than a SCV. GG, thanks for coming out, don't forget to tip your waiter on the way out.
Now, I'm silver, so I admit freely I suck at times...I had a 2 second delay on getting my SCV's mining & I know I should have pulled another SCV to finish the wall (although I'm not sure I had the minerals for it, I cut econ pretty hard to try to defend this, and I'm not at home & cant rewatch the replay). But bottom line, I scouted the rush coming & prepared for it & still couldn't defend it.
Thats cheese to me...and yeah, I know, l2p and this shit won't happen to you...and this particular case was of course an all-in cheese...had I actually pulled off a defense I probably would have destroyed the rush-er. The problem is that noobs like me are the minority...most people want to go online, have fun & thats the end of it....people like me throwing themselves into a game & learning the mechanics are far fewer. And those casuals will be in the lower tiers, where the rushes and all-in cheese are much more prevalant...and they're going to get pissed off, and nerdrage/quit playing in disgust.
People like us find cheese and use it to learn to play...but you can be assured that the true crying/nerdrage will come from the casuals who get raped over and over again & just give up. And I don't think that its necessarily appropriate to just "l2p" the noob & forget about him either.
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I just get pissed when the player obviously puts no thought into his game plan. Like if all he does is pump pure lings or make 5 raxes then bring all his scvs and attack that seems pretty pointless to me, but if he does some trippy build where he tricks me or something i dont have a problem with that.
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On June 01 2010 05:12 TelecOm1 wrote:
lol i was joking around w/ spartan but yes..... I know people I know. I'm a scrub on SC2 and BW, but when I beat you........What does that make you? D=
That would make me a trash, good thing I haven't ever lost to you. I did lose to spartan once, he did some obnoxious garbage cannon rush on the only map he played at the time.
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After reading several posts in this blog, it seems people are too stupid to realize that I was ranting about why people cry about cheesing and not ranting as to why people cheese.
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Fine, since you want to be a whiny bitch with our responses...
People QQ about cheesing because, at least per my definition of "cheese", they are all but unstopable, especially for newbies...getting raped repeatedly with "l2p" as the solution to the rape just pisses people off, and accomplishes nothing.
Then comes the next step...they cheese themselves, which gets them going for a while till they advance enough where the cheese player gets raped again constantly with cries of "die cheesing noob", which again pisses people off.
Look, its easy to be a douchebag when you're hiding behind a nickname on the internet, and while I care about my win-loss ratio, its not the culmination of my existance either. I'm not even saying don't rush, or don't cheese from time to time...but if you're a loser who just cheeses as the only way to win...well then as far as I'm concerned you can just go fuck yourself too.
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EPT
