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Disclaimer: I have not played the beta, but have watched a lot and pondered on how to get my beloved templars back into the game.
I've been thinking about templars recently. I know there are several threads recently discussing the uselessness of templar in mid game matches because of robo bay units. I really only have on proposal, but I think it would definitely add to the usefulness of going for a templar archives early. Get rid of the dark shrine as a prerequisite for dark templar, instead just needing the templar archives to be able to build dark templar. The tech upgrades for the units would still stay in the dark shrine, but this would allow for some earlier DT aggression and would make it worthwhile to make the templar archives instead of just going robo. This could definitely help with early roach aggression because of lack of detection in zerg and terran doesn't have the detection either which could slow their huge pushes down. I definitely don't know if this is the best answer or not, and feel free to critique, but I think it could definitely help make early templar more viable.
 
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I was thinking about that as well. The thing to consider is DT timings and resource commitment. The reason for the dark shrine is to slow down DTs, and also make DTs largely inefficient if you are only going to get a few.
In PvZ, DTs are later tech than overseers, but the thing we have to consider is when it would be a convenient time for Zerg to get overseers. Without the Dark Shrine, if Z starts building an overseer right as the DT starts killing drones, then the economic damage may be substantial. I think this is why they made Dark Shrines in the first place - you have to do significant economic damage for it to be worth it. After they get detection, DTs' usefulness is significantly dropped.
In PvT, every time a scan goes down, that's at least one MULE that was not used. If the DT runs away at the first scan, Terran has to wait another 50 energy to scan again, and in that time, significant damage may be done.
So the reason why they have a Dark Shrine is so that people have to sacrifice a bit of their economy in order to have a chance of destroying the opponent's economy even greater. In Starcraft 1, Zerg and Terran both had free detection, so DTs were not as big a threat. The more DTs you build, the more efficient the price of the Dark Shrine, but also DTs have diminishing returns after the first few, so having the initial few DTs cost more is perfect.
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not by much. the main reason why many people are opting for robo units is the fact that it does everything.
observers give scouting info
immortals taking huge amounts of damage and deal massive amount of damage to armored units.
collossi are exceptionally good against massed tier 1 units.
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whereas templars are only good for a little bit of easily denied harass and being kinda good against massed tier 1 and massed air (sometimes)
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I definitely think this would help dark templar, but they'll fix them soon anyway because they made the tech to get them absolutely absurd.
250gas and takes the shrine as long as a nexus (A FUCKING NEXUS) to build
but really high templar are fine where they are, people are just trying to use them to kill marauders and roaches, which they are not good against, like tryin to storm ling/ultra.
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DT shrine actually doesn't have any upgrades...-_-; maybe they'll add some later...but as of now..it's just a empty building
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oh lol didn't know that =/ shows how much I know rofl.
Anywho, I definitely appreciate the feedback and education, like I said I'm kinda clueless still, but am learning as much as possible. Also, would buffing archons some, basically adding a higher splash radius and maybe like +2 dmg make using templar more effective. I know in BW part of the reason to get templar was they were still useful after they used their energy by morphing into an archon, now it just seems like they're a big fat target, but they don't get used because they SUCK at doing dmg, so u can let the archons run wild because they're not going to affect the battle's outcome in any significant way.
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personally, i believe that an archon buff is sorely needed. protoss really need a more acceptable form of anti-air other than storm.
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Archons really do need a buff. Protoss has a disadvatage against muta/ling right now because the only counter to mutas that Protoss has are phoenixes, and those are extremely weak vs ground. Lings are pretty much free since they don't cost gas, and they take care of everything protoss has except for zealots. Archons with splash can fend off muta/ling in the later stages of the game, where they die shortly afterwards from a large brigade of broodlords.
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I would be up for something like this:
Archons now require 1 dark templar and 1 high templar, Dark Shrine costs 50 less gass (200 now) and 10 less seconds to build (90 now) and has an upgrade for Archon range.
What do you guys think?
This addresses several issues:
1. Makes DTs cheaper to get initially
2. Has a use for DTs after they are done harrassing
3. Boosts P AA by boosting archon range via upgrade.
4. The tech building actually gets an upgrade instead of being retardedly empty.
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I don't know if I like the requiring both 1 high and 1 dark templar for an archon, but the rest of it looks like it'd help. I like having the archon range as an upgrade so that they aren't too instantly abusive. Also, it gives the toss a legit AA threat against people massing air. Do you think we'd need to do anything to balance the increased usefulness of the archon with a slight nerf in another area so as to not make it too powerful. Something like lower the shields by 50?
Hmm.. another idea that I had ( I know I'm having a lot, but lurking here for the last 4 months and having lots of time on my hands gave me lots to write about) is maybe making the length of storm a bit shorter so the DPS is raised would make it more effective, without making it overpowered. This would happen because you could cast it and the roaches would take more damage just because they can't maneuver out of the storm as effectively.
I'm not trying to say that we should just buff toss constantly, but I hate watching toss play because their isn't an incentive at all to going templar tech and I miss the wonderful blue balls of death roaming the battlefield and owning up those puny zerg lol.
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On April 22 2010 12:11 Sadistx wrote:
I would be up for something like this:
Archons now require 1 dark templar and 1 high templar, Dark Shrine costs 50 less gass (200 now) and 10 less seconds to build (90 now) and has an upgrade for Archon range.
What do you guys think?
This addresses several issues:
1. Makes DTs cheaper to get initially
2. Has a use for DTs after they are done harrassing
3. Boosts P AA by boosting archon range via upgrade.
4. The tech building actually gets an upgrade instead of being retardedly empty.
I'm worried about the extreme gas cost. Getting both templar archives and dark shrine, plus the cost of a high temp and dark temp, is a very steep gas cost, and we may only see archons late game, this is if P can survive while forced to use both high temps and dark temps.
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It could be any combination of templars then, 2 ht, 2 dt or 1+1 to give the player flexibility.
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EPT
