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Hey all,
I'm planning on teaching a Starcraft class next Fall at Oberlin College (student-taught). I'm designing the syllabus right now, and I wanted to get input from the community about stuff that I may have overlooked thus far.
The class is going to be mostly about the professional scene of Starcraft. I'm going to talk about tactics/strategy some at the beginning, but it's mostly going to be about E-Sports.
If there's anything you think that should definitely be included (specific links to youtube vids, Day9 stuff, Final Edits, etc.), please let me know. Thanks!
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"Know your opponent and know yourself" - SDM
Get EVERYONE to read that Art of War book or whatever that daniel lee makes his players read. That will take half the semester 
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Calgary26000 Posts
On March 25 2010 02:36 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:"Know your opponent and know yourself" - SDM Get EVERYONE to read that Art of War book or whatever that daniel lee makes his players read. That will take half the semester
"that art of war book or whatever"?
are you serious?
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Have you seen the videos posted of the UC Berkeley starcraft class? If not, they would probably be a good starting point.
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The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory or whatever.
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy... use the conquered foe to augment one's own strength or whatever.
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting or whatever.
- Sun Tzu or some guy
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On March 25 2010 02:36 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:"Know your opponent and know yourself" - SDM Get EVERYONE to read that Art of War book or whatever that daniel lee makes his players read. That will take half the semester
um, no
I'm not trying to train people to play sc well, more of exposing them to professional sc.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Art of War is about 40 pages, it wouldn't take long to dissect it all in class
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I agreed, do the Art of War since its short and very useful
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http://www.paxlibrorum.com/res/downloads/taowde.pdf
I love Art Of War.
It can apply to Starcraft.
Here's some examples:
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
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Canada5565 Posts
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft
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On March 25 2010 02:41 Jyvblamo wrote:
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory or whatever.
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy... use the conquered foe to augment one's own strength or whatever.
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting or whatever.
- Sun Tzu or some guy
funny
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Calgary26000 Posts
On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft
Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it.
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On March 25 2010 02:39 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 02:36 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:"Know your opponent and know yourself" - SDM Get EVERYONE to read that Art of War book or whatever that daniel lee makes his players read. That will take half the semester "that art of war book or whatever"? are you serious?
r u for rela?
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Make it clear the various eras in the sport. I'm sure many of us have been history-related classes that are kind of unclear in terms of development, and I think it's of extreme importance in this case. Present issues that the lay person can have some say on in a debate, for example:
- how the relative progamer skill has increased over the years and what effects the skill gaps have had.
- Why is e-sports seen the way it is in Korea (give some background of course).
- The demographic in tv viewing, and how that has changed over the years, maybe include internet tv.
You need to show how and why it matters to the people who are engaged in the Starcraft scene. I think talking about the non-Korean fans a lot would be ill-advised, as the spectrum of foreigners is narrow: most are pretty passionate and have a much better working knowledge of the game than joe-schmo, but certainly talking about the foreigner world deserves at least a little attention. Also, talk about some other e-Sports that have come and gone, the popularity of Special Force or fighting games compared to racing games and such would be interesting to look at.
I teach music to a lot of people, so I dig talking about topics that people are fairly unfamiliar with. I myself would LOVE to teach a course about the SC scene. Ahhhhhhhh dreams...
Best of luck
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United States44109 Posts
On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it.
That said, I feel a decent Starcraft player has already learned everything relevant from the book. Starcraft offers a simplified tactical and economic scenario which can be played out again and again quickly whereas The Art of War was intended for students with no access to such simulations. There is a lot of stuff in there which can be derived very easily by examining Starcraft.
Maybe reading it before you play any Starcraft would help but by the time you're wanting to become competetive you should be familiar with most the concepts.
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On March 25 2010 02:32 Sunyveil wrote:
Hey all,
I'm planning on teaching a Starcraft class next Fall at Oberlin College (student-taught). I'm designing the syllabus right now, and I wanted to get input from the community about stuff that I may have overlooked thus far.
The class is going to be mostly about the professional scene of Starcraft. I'm going to talk about tactics/strategy some at the beginning, but it's mostly going to be about E-Sports.
If there's anything you think that should definitely be included (specific links to youtube vids, Day9 stuff, Final Edits, etc.), please let me know. Thanks!
Then why would you even bother with specifics of tactics and strategy?
I would imagine the impact of whatever tactics/strategies you decide to highlight on e-sports will be the key point and not the details of said tactics/strategies.
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Calgary26000 Posts
On March 25 2010 03:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. That said, I feel a decent Starcraft player has already learned everything relevant from the book.
There's no way. The tactics used by even the highest level players are so elementary they should hardly even be called tactics.
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esports itself is like a living person, it has a beggining, middle and current time.
talk about the histroy, be sure to include players like Elky and Grrrr... who impacted Korea despite being foreigners, talk about icons the bonjwas Boxer and how he's know across the world. about how it all began, how it evolved, what it is currently, what the future may hold (SC2?) comapre players/strats/life style of players from say 2001 to present day and talk about the evolution of esports and the game itself
pick out spesific games that were mega important or had a deep impact or prehaps some starcraft drama (FvJ msl)
in terms of strat i guess day[9] would be the best since he really goes deep into the game and also talks about the pros and their styles.
hope this gives you some ideas gl sounds like it would be a 1337 class
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On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it.
this class isn't about becoming a competitive starcraft player though.
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On March 25 2010 03:55 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. this class isn't about becoming a competitive starcraft player though.
I think he's sarcastic anyway
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United States44109 Posts
On March 25 2010 03:32 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:26 KwarK wrote:On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. That said, I feel a decent Starcraft player has already learned everything relevant from the book. There's no way. The tactics used by even the highest level players are so elementary they should hardly even be called tactics.
Things such as shortening supply lines for greater power, exponential numerical advantages, exercising pressure at a point with smaller forces, feints, the value of targetting production, forcing your opponent into an unfavourable attack etc all happen all the time in bw. And those were just the first things that came to mind.
Much of The Art of War isn't relevant to bw and the stuff that is happens a lot in games. It's an impressive work because it existed in an age in which you pretty much only got one shot at large scale warfare and had to get it right. After a thousand games of bw the tactics that work should appear self evident.
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On March 25 2010 03:59 Exteray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:55 Sunyveil wrote:On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. this class isn't about becoming a competitive starcraft player though. I think he's sarcastic anyway
wow, I'm romanian
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Calgary26000 Posts
On March 25 2010 03:55 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. this class isn't about becoming a competitive starcraft player though.
What is it about? If it's about learning things that apply to both your life and Starcraft, then The Art of War should be #1 on the list. If it's about learning an old game in-depth, then you shouldn't read it. Obviously I'm of the opinion the former is much more valuable.
I am not being sarcastic.
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Calgary26000 Posts
On March 25 2010 04:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 03:32 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:26 KwarK wrote:On March 25 2010 03:21 Chill wrote:On March 25 2010 03:12 Xxio wrote:
LOL don't read the Art of War in your StarCraft class, that's pointless.
Tell them about how the game evolves and basic strategies (expand when you attack, recalls to move a terran's mech army etc.), does the same thing as Art of War..but applied to StarCraft Reading and understanding The Art of War is probably one of the best things someone could do to become a "competitive Starcraft player" so I'm not sure why you're scoffing at it. That said, I feel a decent Starcraft player has already learned everything relevant from the book. There's no way. The tactics used by even the highest level players are so elementary they should hardly even be called tactics. Things such as shortening supply lines for greater power, exponential numerical advantages, exercising pressure at a point with smaller forces, feints, the value of targetting production, forcing your opponent into an unfavourable attack etc all happen all the time in bw. And those were just the first things that came to mind.
That's true.
Much of The Art of War isn't relevant to bw and the stuff that is happens a lot in games.
Also true. Isn't there a section about controlling the whores to boost morale? Or am I just remembering that wrong lol.
After a thousand games of bw the tactics that work should appear self evident.
That's the part I'm not so sure about. Just because it works and will continue to work doesn't mean it can't be improved on. You have to agree that Starcraft has boiled down to 95% mechanics and 5% tactics. I feel a player with a tactical focus could revolutionize the game briefly.
But this is all irrelevant to what the OP is talking about
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
daniel lee didn't make anyone read the art of war lol
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I get what kwark is saying and I feel the same way. The Sun Tzu book is mostly just common sense kinda stuff but applied to war/strategy situations. Even if you never played RTS you can basically go ok, the goal of the game is to collect resources and destroy your opponent, so if I go after his resources he can't crush me and i cna crush him. And everyone knows that fighting from a high ground or surrounding an opponent is going to give you an advantage. If you sub out words here and there from each little tip/tactic (or whatever they are called) you apply it to most any concept as well.
But whatever, it'll give the class some merit. I'm sure there are some people who'd benefit from some quotes. Also the David Sirlin Book is like part 2 to the art of war applied to gaming
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw This actually contains more complex stuff that isn't so common sense (and it actually takes a lot of the better points of AoW in the book itself.
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You really want them to read something written by Sirlin ?
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I haven't followed his writings as of late but his original article(s) like 7 years ago were pretty good.
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United States24779 Posts
For starters, what is the title of the course that you are hoping for? You briefly described your goals already which helps... hmmm
Obviously primary sources are going to be very limited but I'd suggest scrutinizing what readings you incorporate very carefully.
If you want you can show us, or me a rough draft of your syllabus and I can help you with it. It's very difficult to design a course well.
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You gotta make everyone say, I AM ESPORTS!!!
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Well you could teach them how to handle a main attack, a diversion attack, building buildings and units, check if minerals patches are running dry so workers has to be transfered, cast spells, keep an eye on the minimap for enemy counters, make sure that DTs are not harashing ur workers (because no warnings are given), and least but not last make sure ur supply limit isnt reached, all in the same time.
gl hf lol
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hmmm Show them the XellOs Documentary and BoxeR's bio.
Wouldnt it be awesome to assign them to watch Proleague and identify what strategy each player did?
Teamliquid would be their cheatsheet
Maybe newcomers might try the class and see what its about so a superb introduction like the crowd in Yellow vs Boxer finals would be pretty awesome along with epic gameplay
If thats too low quality, show them WCG 2009 crowd. Stork vs Jaedong had some epicly big crowd from what i remember.
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Know thy enemy...know thyself.
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EPT
