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Hi TL,
I need some advice from some Chem and Comp sci nerds. Basically it's two nights before my Biochem final (biochem under the school of biological sciences, which means its more memorizing than mechanisms) and I realize I don't want to do Biology for the rest of my life.
I'm not premed and I could give a shit less about the ecosystem. I'm in a developmental biology lab for units at the moment, and parts are interesting, but I'm not sure if I could be in a bio lab forever. I do love research and lab life, as insane as it sounds, but I miss numbers and logic that I've been deprived of as bio major.
I'm considering switching into Chemistry and Computer Science, since I do pretty well in Chem, and if I get owned in a Chem class I'm less frustrated because it is somewhat enjoyable. I just hate some labs but I know they're inevitable.
Computer Science is something I always wanted to try, but the most I've done is some Project Euler problems over summer with Python. I also considered a math minor as well since I miss it so much.
Anyway, what I'm here to ask is does anyone here know what I'm getting myself into? I'm a second year and its not that late to make the switch, but since I'm Asian and my grades and academic work = my worth as a human being, I'm reluctant to doing something as drastic as what I'm considering at the moment, especially since I'm just super stressing over finals...but I really am starting to hate this memorizing business.
Anyway, any input would be helpful. I'm also just letting off some insanity and procrastinating studying some more =(. I will be taking Summer School since I want to be done in 4 years.
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Comp sci can be alot of work and stress if you want to do well, but if you enjoy it that shouldn't be a problem. As everyone says do what you like, so don't worry about switching majors if you're not enjoying what you're doing.
Hm, maybe uh look at all of the courses you'd have to be taking and see if that kind of stuff interests you before jumping into a major besides just saying you like numbers?
I assure you almost no matter what you take there will be courses/labs you hate and just have to do anyways, so that shouldn't put you off of anything.
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you cant go wrong with any of those, really. they all come with a good amount of prestige (bio and chem for the medical status) and jo
oh man just experienced another socal earthquake
anyway, youll have lots of job opportunities with any of those. just choose one that you like
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I've been exposed to a lot of Chemistry as part of the course requirements for bio, and I'm tutoring for the general chemistry course as well. I just find that there is a logic and structure behind Chemistry which you can apply to solve problems.
That's what I mean when I say "I like numbers," I just miss the problem aspect on exams and how they can apply to real life. Instead I have "This enzyme specifically does _______ use exact wording or you're screwed".
EDIT: Also I heard the job opportunities for Bio are limited. My cousin who graduated from UCSD keeps telling me to switch out because there are no jobs =(
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It's a really different skill set. If you aren't used to and/or love coding, I think comp sci can be a mistake. You're more likely to have overlap between bio/chem than bio/comp sci as well
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CA10828 Posts
i would not recommend getting into compsci if it's just a passing interest and you don't really know that much about it (ie you think it's just "kinda cool/interesting"). all my friends in those classes have had a really tough time in them and the projects are super stressful.
chem and bio are very related and if you like science but not bio, then go for chem.
edit:
btw, i'm a senior majoring in bio and i'll just let you know that if you hate memorization, bio is not for you. yeah, some of the classes like physiology are less memorization and more understanding, but the majority of the stuff is memorizing different signaling pathways, metabolic pathways, etc.
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On March 16 2010 20:48 LosingID8 wrote:
i would not recommend getting into compsci if it's just a passing interest and you don't really know that much about it (ie you think it's just "kinda cool/interesting"). all my friends in those classes have had a really tough time in them and the projects are super stressful.
chem and bio are very related and if you like science but not bio, then go for chem.
edit:
btw, i'm a senior majoring in bio and i'll just let you know that if you hate memorization, bio is not for you. yeah, some of the classes like physiology are less memorization and more understanding, but the majority of the stuff is memorizing different signaling pathways, metabolic pathways, etc.
I'm aware that I shouldn't enter comp sci if I have the attitude of "lol i like computers and i want to make games and see how this turns out" but its also an itch that I have to scratch. I'll be sure to enter it with a very open mind and to approach problems with a new way of thinking.
Also, anyone have advice on a math minor/major? It's an alternative to comp sci for me, but if time/ambition allows me I'd add it as another minor.
The issue for me now is just making the leap. Being consistently studious all my life, it feels odd to choose things that I want to do...if that makes any sense?
Also thanks for everyones contributions so far ^^
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I loved biochem :|. Its a lot of memorizing but you learn a lot of very useful basic biology. But I understand what you mean, I originally went into college with the intention of a MCB degree but came out with a computational bio degree and it might be worth looking into if your school has a computational biology / bioinformatics program. Its a relatively new field but its growing very quickly and nearly every genomics lab will need someone to sift through all their data at some point. By nature biology is a pretty broad field so computational biology is broad as well, gene finding, sequence alignment, genome finishing/assembly, protein folding, population modeling, etc., etc. You will need to learn a lot of statistics to do well in this field (Bayesian statistics and hidden markov models are used a lot) but the results you can get with it are really cool. As for work, I managed to get a job out of undergrad in a sequencing center relatively quickly. If you know how to pipette and know how to code you will be in high demand.
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On March 16 2010 21:21 ZeaL. wrote:
I loved biochem :|. Its a lot of memorizing but you learn a lot of very useful basic biology. But I understand what you mean, I originally went into college with the intention of a MCB degree but came out with a computational bio degree and it might be worth looking into if your school has a computational biology / bioinformatics program. Its a relatively new field but its growing very quickly and nearly every genomics lab will need someone to sift through all their data at some point. By nature biology is a pretty broad field so computational biology is broad as well, gene finding, sequence alignment, genome finishing/assembly, protein folding, population modeling, etc., etc. You will need to learn a lot of statistics to do well in this field (Bayesian statistics and hidden markov models are used a lot) but the results you can get with it are really cool. As for work, I managed to get a job out of undergrad in a sequencing center relatively quickly. If you know how to pipette and know how to code you will be in high demand.
Ooo thats reassuring. I was also considering bioinformatics, as my original plan was bio + comp sci...but a new major opened up in the comp sci school here called BioMed computing as well o_O. The only bioinformatics program I know of would be that BioMed program or the graduate program, but thats fairly new.
That's pretty awesome that your school actually offers a computational bio degree. I wish I had the option to explore that right without forging my own curriculum.
Also I thought I would enjoy biochem a lot more. It's interesting since I can apply the organic chemistry knowledge I have to what I'm learning in biochem, but I have to spend more time memorizing than uncovering mechanisms since thats just how we will be tested =|
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If you like math and you're good at it, then chances are you'll do pretty well in Computer Science. Computer Science is really just a subset of mathematics; everything basically stems from the idea that you can use a transistor to represent true/false. From there you can use binary arithmetic to design logic gates and circuits. Make it complex enough and you have a simple processor.
If you're interested in chemistry and how a computer fundamentally works from a physical perspective, it might be a good idea to do Computer Engineering. Computer Engineering combines algorithms and computational science with electrical engineering.
I wouldn't recommend bioinformatics simply because I find biology to be boring. I'm an engineer at heart, and I can't stand rote memorization, which is practicum in biology. The irony is that I work in neuroscience lab where I'm exposed to biological concepts all the time, but I mainly deal with the data acquisition and analysis part of the experiments.
It's fairly normal for people to change their majors in college. I wouldn't worry too much about when you graduate; if you're doing what you enjoy, spending extra time in school is worth it. I'd recommend you take some entry level programming classes before you make a firm decision on whether you want to study Computer Science or not; either you thrive or you really struggle because you don't enjoy it.
You'll also have to think about career opportunities in the future. I'm fine with working in a cubicle 40-50 hours a week in front of a computer screen writing code. I'm really passionate about creating great software that other people can use, and it's not tiring to me. But for many people this isn't the case.
I don't think it's actually possible to get a chemistry degree and a computer science degree within four years because the class-load is too heavy. Maybe it's possible for some person out there, but for me, it'd be impossible. I like spending a lot of time on personal projects, or just playing with new programming languages for fun; I wouldn't be able to do that if I took 5 or 6 classes every quarter.
Additionally, employers aren't really going to care that you have a chemistry degree if you're looking for a software engineering job. It might look impressive that you double majored, but a chemistry degree doesn't tell me how your skills will translate to a programming job. The caveat of course is if you're looking to get a Ph.D in chemistry, and want the background in computer science to help your research in the future. If that's the case, by all means go for it.
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On March 16 2010 20:48 LosingID8 wrote:
i would not recommend getting into compsci if it's just a passing interest and you don't really know that much about it (ie you think it's just "kinda cool/interesting"). all my friends in those classes have had a really tough time in them and the projects are super stressful.
chem and bio are very related and if you like science but not bio, then go for chem.
edit:
btw, i'm a senior majoring in bio and i'll just let you know that if you hate memorization, bio is not for you. yeah, some of the classes like physiology are less memorization and more understanding, but the majority of the stuff is memorizing different signaling pathways, metabolic pathways, etc.
It's kind of funny. Our entry-level data structures course at my school has a third of its students drop out during the quarter. A lot of them actually change their majors because of this course. I know this because I dropped the class my first time, and later tutored for it.
When I interviewed for jobs, I realized that while the class was pretty hard, all the ideas and concepts were essential. I didn't learn anything in that class that wouldn't be useful to me in the future. It's kind of a trial by fire; I told myself that since I got through my data-structures class, I could tackle anything else the school threw at me. I'm planning on getting my masters in CS now.
I've always had a really easy time studying biology. But I just don't find it challenging. I've got a pretty good memory; usually what takes my friends multiple times to read and understand, I can retain in my first glance. I'm fairly interested in the subject, and read books on biology in my spare time, but I wouldn't want to research biology for the rest of my life. There's definitely a huge difference between "passing interest" and "passion".
I wouldn't have made it through my data structures class if wasn't really passionate about computer science. I would have changed my major, and that would have been the right decision.
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On March 16 2010 19:58 shindigs wrote:
Hi TL,
I'm not premed and I could give a shit less about the ecosystem. I'm in a developmental biology lab for units at the moment, and parts are interesting, but I'm not sure if I could be in a bio lab forever. I do love research and lab life, as insane as it sounds, but I miss numbers and logic that I've been deprived of as bio major.
I'm considering switching into Chemistry and Computer Science, since I do pretty well in Chem, and if I get owned in a Chem class I'm less frustrated because it is somewhat enjoyable. I just hate some labs but I know they're inevitable.
This is exactly why I'm in Comp Eng
On March 16 2010 19:58 shindigs wrote:
Anyway, what I'm here to ask is does anyone here know what I'm getting myself into? I'm a second year and its not that late to make the switch, but since I'm Asian and my grades and academic work = my worth as a human being, I'm reluctant to doing something as drastic as what I'm considering at the moment, especially since I'm just super stressing over finals...but I really am starting to hate this memorizing business.
Anyway, any input would be helpful. I'm also just letting off some insanity and procrastinating studying some more =(. I will be taking Summer School since I want to be done in 4 years.
I don't know what advice to give you. perhaps it would be possible to pursue a more computer related/ mathy (but also bio) career after college. But that means you have to suffer through two more years of bio and you may not learn as much useful stuff as your competition.
One thing I do not recommend is computer engineering. Engineers are diehard. Compsci may be fine.
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I'm actually in the second year of my Bioinformatics undergrad program, and I lean towards enjoying my CS courses more than my Bio courses. Undergrad biology is quite mundane, with very few interesting challenges compared to math or cs. Maybe it gets better in later years...
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Why not go into Chemical Engineering? This major is so broad that you can basically do what ever you want. There are plenty of coding research/projects, many chemistry experimental type researches. Also, what school do you go to?
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Stay away from compsci at all costs. All... costs....
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I was in biology until I took biochem 
Now I am a mathematician 
EDIT: in my opinion there is nothing to learn in compsci courses. The undergrad in compsci is easy! However, research in compsci is very dynamic and is typically interdisciplinary.
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I think its worth noting that bioinformatics/comp bio people come in 2 main flavors, cs people who work on bio problems or bio research people that happen to use cs to help get shit done. For the former you really only need a general knowledge of biology and have an excellent grasp of programming while the latter requires that you understand your system of interest and have enough cs skills to use the packages the former made. Where you end up depends on your level of interest in those fields. It seems you still have time to see what you like so you should explore both and figure out what appeals to you. I myself wouldn't really like programming/reading papers all day so I'm more of a biology person so thats where I'm going but I'm sure plenty of people prefer it the other way around.
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Chemistry will have memorising too. I don't know if it's as bad as biochemistry, but it sure exists and it was bad. In fact I'd say almost every course you can take will involve a significant amount of memorising. That alone isn't a good reason to switch in my opinion. However, being completely uninterested in what you're doing is a good reason to switch. Also, if you don't like laboratory work then you definitely shouldn't do chemistry. Chemistry isn't about figuring out problems with pen and paper. It's about figuring out the world through experiments. Almost everything you ever learn in chemistry will have some experimental background attached to it. I suspect that you'll be made to go throw a whole series of "classical experiments" that lead to the advent of modern chemistry.
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I did chemistry and life sciences, and now I'm doing computer science integrating commerce/economics. I love computer science!
A lot of the people I know HATE biochem or some have even dropped out of the program on their 4th year of studies. It might be due to the fact that you have an exam in 2 days, and the stress and everything is kicking in. Maybe you thought about dropping out of biochem for some time. Either case, I think exploring other disciplines is an excellent idea to broaden yourself as an individual. Bioinformatics is good too, but I would suggest chemical engineering if that's an option. It seems like you like life science stuff too, but also like computing. so my suggestion would be
1.chemical engineering
2.combined major of comp sci + microbiology? (or anything)
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Do what you think you can live with for the rest of your life, or better yet, look at the average salaries of what each type of degree will get you and then try and decide if what you are doing is worth what you'll be making. I did that with my career and although sometimes my job sucks I really enjoy those huge paychecks that ensure I'll retire early.
Just another perspective.
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If you're motivated and smart enough to do Project Euler stuff on your own, then yes, you should be in CS. Make the switch.
CS is a tough field these days, and you'll need to really dedicate yourself to be able to justify being paid a few times what people in developing countries are, but if you do get really good, you can add a ton of value. This is probably true in all of the fields you're considering, though.
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You can learn a lot of CS online btw, for example, if you want to learn lisp (and everyone should lol) http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a great resource.
Do you prefer CS or math problems? Because while the fields are pretty similar (CS actually branched off from math originally) math generally deals with the abstract and CS doesn't until you get to a certain level. So if you like that sort of thing definitely go math and you can always pick up CS skills along the way; but if you prefer hardcore application of problem solving go CS. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with either of them, they're both great
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Wow, so much great advice, thank you all! I'm sorry I'm using TL as my personal counselor at the moment, but I much rather prefer a diverse perspective from students or people who have experience.
Here's one more perspective:
Switching over to the Chemistry major would not be a problem at all. The bio pre-reqs are basically the same as the Chemistry ones, so I just have to take a few extra classes (1-2), if any at all. I personally take around 20 units a quarter and the work load isn't too bad for me. I'm personally doing 20 right now and the only thing that takes up the most time is time in the lab. There are lots of overlaps, and if anything I would prefer to pursue BioChem under the School of Chemistry rather than the School of Bio.
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Hmmm, my school placed biochemistry with chemistry (since we were taking mostly upper level chemistry courses instead of upper level bio classes). Of course, they were all grouped under biological sciences, but biochem is not a hard bio major. That's odd. I have my BS in biochem btw.
It'd probably be best for you to switch to chem if you're not doing too bad right now. You can get more of a variation in upper level classes you want to take... biochem is more a set track because you have to take some of bio and some of chem and most of the upper levels are required.
CS can be devastating if you don't have connections, and depending on the courses you need to take the workload can be awful. Lab reports are a pain to do, but most CS programs will dump you with more busy work that than. I'd 100% go with chem instead of CS.
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Most schools have two biochem classes.
One comes from the biology department and the other comes from the chem department.
I have friends taking Chem 300 which is biochem and other taking bio 300 which is biological chemistry.
Biochem from the biology department is complete bullshit, you will learn nothing but useless enzyme families and subclasses.
The biochem from the chem department is usually more rigorous and asks for a good knowledge of calc I and calc II. Some statistics and some physics.
I'm in the same boat as you right now. Doing an undergrad in bio. It's boring and totally not interesting at all. Memorizing has not been my strongest quality either.
Chemistry is definitely more logical and intuitive than biology.
oh and btw how good are you in math? (most ppl think their good, but their not really good at all)
CS takes a lot of math, specially linear algebra and the like. I would take an intro course to CS and see how you like it or not.
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Just make sure you don't get "computer science" and "programming" mixed up. Programming is simply learning specific languages to solve the broader problems in computer science. Prepare to deal with a lot of theory, math, algorithms, and logic. I used to like math, but now that I'm at CMU studying CS, I hate it. I've always known that I wanted to do CS though, so I I'll stick with it. The bright side with computer science is that pretty much every company needs computer scientists, so you can do a lot with it. There are a lot of different areas you can branch out in besides software development, such as consulting, IT, management, research, and even banking.
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On March 17 2010 17:31 teh leet newb wrote:
Just make sure you don't get "computer science" and "programming" mixed up. Programming is simply learning specific languages to solve the broader problems in computer science. Prepare to deal with a lot of theory, math, algorithms, and logic. I used to like math, but now that I'm at CMU studying CS, I hate it. I've always known that I wanted to do CS though, so I I'll stick with it. The bright side with computer science is that pretty much every company needs computer scientists, so you can do a lot with it. There are a lot of different areas you can branch out in besides software development, such as consulting, IT, management, research, and even banking.
Thanks for the heads up! I'll keep it in mind.
I have been yearning for math lately since I realize how much I miss it after being buried under so much bio. I know the reason why some CS majors drop is because its not what they expected, but I'm into math and theory so I'll approach it with an open mind. I really like Chem and CS because I feel you can apply it to almost anything.
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On March 17 2010 17:31 teh leet newb wrote:
Just make sure you don't get "computer science" and "programming" mixed up. Programming is simply learning specific languages to solve the broader problems in computer science. Prepare to deal with a lot of theory, math, algorithms, and logic. I used to like math, but now that I'm at CMU studying CS, I hate it. I've always known that I wanted to do CS though, so I I'll stick with it. The bright side with computer science is that pretty much every company needs computer scientists, so you can do a lot with it. There are a lot of different areas you can branch out in besides software development, such as consulting, IT, management, research, and even banking.
maybe you hate it because CMU has 70% males =p
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Lab work in either organic chemistry or biochemistry is pretty much brute-force these days. Not sure about other disciplines of chemistry like pchem, but I would imagine there's more logic and math there.
Lots of logic in comp sci, but I'd rather shoot myself in the face than spend the rest of my working career around those guys.
Not much math in chemistry beyond basic calculus and algebra, at least in my experience. I was disappointed to find out that after my undergrad major required a year of calculus, I would almost never get to use it again. Should have been a physics major.
edit: chemistry is like "take 2x and 3y and make 5z. It's logical, moderately predictable, and generally makes a lot of sense. biology is like "this is a tree, we call it a hububububub." Just to echo (and agree with) others in the thread.
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True that, it really depends on your chemistry major.
The one that is ACS approved requires 300 level physics which means you have to take higher level maths to complete it.
If your serious about chemistry then you need a solid math background depending on what you want to do.
Industry requires less math than research chemistry.
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On March 18 2010 00:41 Rev0lution wrote:
True that, it really depends on your chemistry major.
The one that is ACS approved requires 300 level physics which means you have to take higher level maths to complete it.
If your serious about chemistry then you need a solid math background depending on what you want to do.
Industry requires less math than research chemistry.
I think that requirement is going to depend on the individual program. The ACS just sets guidelines for their degree, I do not think they require highly specific non-chemistry things (at least, that's the general impression I get from reading their website). I know I didn't have to take a 300 level physics course to get my ACS certified degree.
Of course at the end of the day, it's a piece of a paper you get like 3 months after graduation. No one particularly cares whether your degree is ACS certified or not.
Having a strong math background helps, but I don't think it is exactly a requirement... unless you want to do PChem.
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At my college you could do non-calc physics for the ACS certified option. They required the full year of calculus as a pre-req to PChem, but in every other chemistry class you didn't even have to understand the derivations if you could plug stuff into the simplified algebraic relationships.
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On March 16 2010 22:11 Shengster wrote:
It's kind of funny. Our entry-level data structures course at my school has a third of its students drop out during the quarter. A lot of them actually change their majors because of this course. I know this because I dropped the class my first time, and later tutored for it.
This is how it works at our school too. Personally, after taking a community college class during the summer, around spring, I was considering switching to cs so I jumped straight into data structures and loved it. It actually made me switch to cs.
You seem to like math so cs would definitely be a good option for you, but you should really consider why you want to switch to cs and figure out what your expectations are. Then take an intro level class (while still working on your other stuff) and see if your expectations are met.
Like others have said, cs is just a subset of math and you basically love it or you don't. You do project euler on your own so that's definitely a good sign. Just take an intro level cs class and see how it goes. You might find that you like making toy programs to solve a problem, but don't like making more complex programs in which case you'd probably be better off with math.
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You like numbers and logic with parts of biology? There's a great deal of math involved in the developing field of animal behavior, quantifying animal interactions (game theory essentially), Fourier analysis of animal calls, using physics and math to explain certain behaviors (and chemistry obv).
Whether your school offers it or not though...let's just say the only textbook written on the field is the one by my professors, but its an amazing course imo.
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Its the truth and occurs every semester. Most of them take it and expect something else, I only took CS1 so far(Mostly basic Java and C++). I remember my professor said on the first day of class that in this department about 50% of the students will drop out and switch majors. Only thing I have to really worry about is the high level math and physics courses :/
And my worse fear and well every major has to do it.... Speech course.
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EPT
