|
Well, yesterday's puzzle was solved ridiculously quickly. Props to both love1another and MayorITC for their completely different approaches to arrive at the same solution. TL is damn good with numbers. So, for today's puzzle there will be none of that.
This is a difficult variation of the popular "two paths with two guards one of which always lies and the other tells the truth" puzzle.
Let's begin!
You're Mike Morhaime and in your hand is an SC2 beta key. You held a contest to determine who gets it and now you're down to 3 finalists. Two of them are starcraft players and one is a Heroes of Newerth player. Obviously, you want to give it to one of the SC players but you don't know who is who. Here's what you know: -These starcraft players are special -- one always tells the truth, the other always lies. -The HoN player really wants that beta key -- he could choose to do either. -The contestants are complete strangers, they don't know anything about each other at all
You can ask ONE person a single yes/no question. What do you ask to guarantee that you can give the beta key to one of the starcraft players?
GL!
edit: bolded/emphasized a point -- only ask one person! that means you're only getting one yes/no answer.
   
|
One of them should look like this + Show Spoiler + so that's your hon player. Give the key to any of the other two guys who you can contact by PM-ing me.
|
England2662 Posts
I can do it in one question:
"Did you enjoy warcraft 3, and would you say it was the best RTS ever?"
The liar will say yes, the HoN player will say "OMFG OF COURSE BLIZZARD RULEZ. EVERYGAME THEY MAKE IS AWESOME LIKE DOTA." and the Starcraft player who tells the truth will say "Lol? are you serious. No, War3 was nothing compared to Starcraft".
|
|
Can't you just ask him something none of them would know and the two starcraft players are obligated to say nothing to ensure they stick to their rules and the hon player can say whatever he wants?
So if the person answers he is the hon players?
|
why not just ask them if they are starcraft players, and give the key to the only one that says no or yes in case the hon player decides to be honest. point is the only answer that is given by only one guy is the a starcraft player's answer
|
+ Show Spoiler +Ask all 3 the same yes or no question, 2 of them will either say yes or no. 1 of them will say whatever the other 2 didn't say. Give the beat key to that guy.
|
you can only ask one of them a question
|
Ok just to emphasize a point in the OP. You are only allowed to ask ONE person ONE question. You're not asking all of them. Consequently, you're only hearing ONE answer.
|
Ask one of them if they always tell the truth. If the answer's yes, there's an SC player. The HoN player will answer no to try to appear humble and thus more relatable, thinking s/he is increasing the chances of obtaining the beta key.
|
When you have three people and only 1 question with yes or no i can't think of a solution.
|
On February 13 2010 00:18 ocho wrote: Ask one of them if they always tell the truth. If the answer's yes, there's an SC player. The HoN player will answer no to try to appear humble and thus more relatable, thinking s/he is increasing the chances of obtaining the beta key.
If i would want the beta key i wouldn't say no.
|
Ask player A "Should player B receive the beta key?"
Only the SC player that lies would give an answer "Yes". Then give the beta key to him.
If the answer is "No", give the beta key to player C. Why? Because only the truth telling SC player or the HoN player would answer "No" to this question. If player A was the HoN player than both B and C are SC players and you still give the beta key to a SC player. If it was the truth telling SC player, then either B or C are SC player and you have a 50% chance to select him.
|
I wanna give this to a true SC fan, If I spoke to you last week you would've said you were too busy watching the SC BSL final right?
Both SC players would say no, the HoN guy would say yes (but of course a SC player would know there is no BSL)
|
Not totally satisfied with this but:
"would you lie for this beta key?" SC player truth: no SC lier: he would lie so he lies and says no HoN player: Really wants it, presumably doesn't expect any trickery so he will say yes.
|
There isn't a "pure" mathematical answer so although my answer is a bit dodgy I think it's the best you can do. Whatever solution you choose you have to somehow use the fact that the HoN player knows nothing about SC or will perhaps give a more "standard" answer since he isn't forced to say yes or no.
|
Klive, Wouldn't the lying SC player say yes?
"Oops. Turns out this was an extra Lich King beta key. Sorry guys we miscalculated! We do, however, have Flash and Jaedong ready to play their bo15 exhibition match. Would you like to watch?"
Truthteller: Yes Liar: No HoN: Leaves in a fit of rage.
|
Call them A, B and C, arbitrarily.
Ask A 'Would B and C sometimes both agree that B played SC?'
If the answer is 'No', then give the key to B If the answer is 'Yes' then give the key to C
Edit: No real trick to it other than faffing around with truth tables until you get a question that eliminates the right two possibilities.
|
Whatever solution you choose you have to somehow use the fact that the HoN player knows nothing about SC or will perhaps give a more "standard" answer since he isn't forced to say yes or no.
+ Show Spoiler [a minor hint] +I will say that this is not the route to the answer. Don't try to psychoanalyze these people and see them as gamers trying to get a beta key. That's just a frame so you can relate to the puzzle better (as opposed to the original frame of thief policeman and spy or whatever). So the whole "appearing humble" or "not expecting any trickery" isn't the way to go. In essence, they're just a liar, a truthie, and a person who can do both. I'm sure you all know that already, I'm just throwing it out there. Some of the answers so far are pretty cute though xD
I'm quite happy at least this puzzle isn't solved immediately!
|
On February 13 2010 01:23 LTT wrote: Klive, Wouldn't the lying SC player say yes?
"Oops. Turns out this was an extra Lich King beta key. Sorry guys we miscalculated! We do, however, have Flash and Jaedong ready to play their bo15 exhibition match. Would you like to watch?"
Truthteller: Yes Liar: No HoN: Leaves in a fit of rage.
Look at how I phrased the question: "I wanna give this to a true SC fan, If I spoke to you last week you would've said you were too busy watching the SC BSL final right?"
Last week the SC liar would have said "Yes" because he always lies, so today he has to say No. It plays the double negative.
|
On February 13 2010 01:33 Aim Here wrote: Call them A, B and C, arbitrarily.
Ask A 'Would B and C sometimes both agree that B played SC?'
If the answer is 'No', then pick B If the answer is 'Yes' then pick C
That's a really good answer except he said they know nothing about each other so I assumed that took away any chance of playing them off each other.
|
On February 13 2010 01:42 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 01:33 Aim Here wrote: Call them A, B and C, arbitrarily.
Ask A 'Would B and C sometimes both agree that B played SC?'
If the answer is 'No', then pick B If the answer is 'Yes' then pick C
That's a really good answer except he said they know nothing about each other so I assumed that took away any chance of playing them off each other.
that's correct.
|
You're Mike Morhaime and in your hand is an SC2 beta key. You held a contest to determine who gets it and now you're down to 3 finalists. Two of them are starcraft players and one is a Heroes of Newerth player. Obviously, you want to give it to one of the SC players but you don't know who is who. Here's what you know: -These starcraft players are special -- one always tells the truth, the other always lies. -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. -The contestants are complete strangers, they don't know anything about each other at all
Seems I was late..
I think this is not possible..
|
This is not possible, the fact that the HoN player is able to lie or tell the truth according to his own whim means that you can never be 100% sure no matter what question you ask.
|
This is not possible, the fact that the HoN player is able to lie or tell the truth according to his own whim means that you can never be 100% sure no matter what question you ask.
Well that means you can't ever trust the person you ask, so you have to give the key to one of the other two. But if one of the other two people is the HoN dude, then the person you're asking questions gives either straight false, or straight true answers so you do have some leverage to get information out of them in those cases.
|
If my previous attempt was not good enough then the solution just must be in the wording of the question or something trivial.
If the assertion is: 1) A-Lies B-Truth C-RandomLie/Truth 2) know NOTHING about each other 3) have NO defining characteristics 4) you have ONE question to ask ONE person (chosen by random) and you receive ONE yes/no answer.
Then mathematically it's impossible. No matter how you word your question person C will always be undetectable.
|
On February 13 2010 02:34 Aim Here wrote:Show nested quote +This is not possible, the fact that the HoN player is able to lie or tell the truth according to his own whim means that you can never be 100% sure no matter what question you ask. Well that means you can't ever trust the person you ask
Exactly, so you can never use any information you might gain from asking your 1 yes//no question to come to a correct conclusion.
I'm almost certain the "answer" to this will be shown to be wrong
|
Ask, "Will you be willing to lie to get this key?"
Truther: No, will answer truthfully that he will not lie Lier: No, will be willing to lie and hence will answer the opposite: no HoN player: Wants the key and so will say yes
|
On February 13 2010 02:45 HaNdFisH wrote: Ask, "Will you be willing to lie to get this key?"
Truther: No, will answer truthfully that he will not lie Lier: No, will be willing to lie and hence will answer the opposite: no HoN player: Wants the key and so will say yes
HoN player: Says no because he wants to look worthy.
Just to clarify, does the HoN player choose based on his perception of what the proper answer is, or is he actually answering randomly.
If he's answering randomly and the players can't answer questions about other players, I don't see how you can ever make a question wherein the answer set has a difference between the SC and HoN player.
|
HaNdFisH Australia. February 13 2010 02:45. Posts 1
This puzzle is nice. Brought me out of lurking, Handfish makes his first post here.
JeeJee, when do we get to know the solution?
|
On February 12 2010 23:19 JeeJee wrote:
-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it.
This is only info we have so cannot assume that he tells the truth//lies depending on the question. It's possible that he simply flips an imaginary coin in his mind and where it "lands" he deicdes to lie//tell the truth.
|
On February 13 2010 02:34 Aim Here wrote:Show nested quote +This is not possible, the fact that the HoN player is able to lie or tell the truth according to his own whim means that you can never be 100% sure no matter what question you ask. Well that means you can't ever trust the person you ask, so you have to give the key to one of the other two. But if one of the other two people is the HoN dude, then the person you're asking questions gives either straight false, or straight true answers so you do have some leverage to get information out of them in those cases.
If you cannot trust the person you ask (let's say A), then you must rely on the person you ask to reveal which of B or C is the HoN player. According to the rules of the puzzle, none of the contestants know anything about the other contestants, so contestant A cannot reveal which of B or C is the HoN player.
It seems an "absolute" solution is impossible. Can anyone figure something out to do better than 50% chance?
|
On February 12 2010 23:19 JeeJee wrote: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it.
I take that to mean he will lie if necessary to get the key, and will also say that he would do it.
I guess you could make some argument about him thinking he is being tested, and wanting to appear honest, but I think the way the question is worded implies that he will do whatever they ask him to.
If the HoN player did have this 50/50 yes-no mechanism then the question would be insoluble and also not really make sense according to the description.
edit:
Reword question to: "I will give you the beta key to you if you are willing to tell a lie for me, would you do it?"
Liar: would lie, says opposite: no Truth: wouldn't lie, says so, no HoN player: wants key, saying yes is in his best interests
|
On February 13 2010 02:45 XeliN wrote: Exactly, so you can never use any information you might gain from asking your 1 yes//no question to come to a correct conclusion.
Not at all.
In the cases where the guy being questioned is the HoN dude, picking EITHER of the other two is fine.
But in the cases where it matters which of the two non-questioned people is picked (i.e. the HoN dude is one of them), the questioner can be trusted either to always lie or always tell the truth, and therefore you can use him to get enough information about the other two contestants to safely pick one.
Got that? Either 1) You're asking the HoN dude a question -> so pick any of the other two Or 2) The HoN dude is one of the other two, in which case, the fact that the guy you're questioning is either a truthie or a falsie can be used to work out which of them isn't the HoN dude. You don't know whether you're in situation 1 or 2 but with 1 it doesn't matter who you pick so you just treat it as if you're in situation 2, and you're golden.
I used it in my attempted answer, above, but my answer was disqualified because of the rule that says these three contestants must be strangers to each other.
I'm almost certain the "answer" to this will be shown to be wrong
I'm agreed with you here, but for the reason that the 'stranger' rule makes it almost impossible to form a useful question. I think it might be possible if you ask one to ask the other questions, but the HoN dude is a spanner in the works there too...
|
But you forget that there is only one answer. You have to make your decision based on one answer. So I would agree with Aim Here and say his solution is the best so far and would think that the real one is pretty close
|
On February 13 2010 03:05 Aim Here wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 02:45 XeliN wrote: Exactly, so you can never use any information you might gain from asking your 1 yes//no question to come to a correct conclusion.
Not at all. In the cases where the guy being questioned is the HoN dude, picking EITHER of the other two is fine. But in the cases where it matters which of the two non-questioned people is picked (i.e. the HoN dude is one of them), the questioner can be trusted either to always lie or always tell the truth, and therefore you can use him to get enough information about the other two contestants to safely pick one. Got that? Either 1) You're asking the HoN dude a question -> so pick any of the other two Or 2) The HoN dude is one of the other two, in which case, the fact that the guy you're questioning is either a truthie or a falsie can be used to work out which of them isn't the HoN dude. I used it in my attempted answer, above, but my answer was disqualified because of the rule that says these three contestants must be strangers to each other. I'm agreed with you here, but for the reason that the 'stranger' rule makes it almost impossible to form a useful question. I think it might be possible if you ask one to ask the other questions, but the HoN dude is a spanner in the works there too...
One aspect of what I am saying is that you can never be certain that the person you are asking is the HoN dude no matter what the response.
|
On February 13 2010 03:08 XeliN wrote: One aspect of what I am saying is that you can never be certain that the person you are asking is the HoN dude no matter what the response.
Actually, I was overfast on the Post button, and between you reading it and me editing it, I inserted
You don't know whether you're in situation 1 or 2 but with 1 it doesn't matter who you pick so you just treat it as if you're in situation 2, and you're golden.
Which I think resolves that issue.
|
On February 13 2010 03:08 XeliN wrote: One aspect of what I am saying is that you can never be certain that the person you are asking is the HoN dude no matter what the response. That is not a problem if you ALWAYS give the key to one of the two people you are not asking.
However, what if the person you are asking is a starcraft player? Then one of the two people you are not asking is the HoN player, and you have to make the starcraft player reveal which it is. But, according to the rules of the puzzle, the starcraft player does not know anything about the other two, so he doesn't KNOW which one is the HoN player. If he doesn't know, then how can he reveal it?
|
I though the trick is to come up with a question that makes the HoN dude tell the truth. Create it in such a way that if he lied, he would be acting agains his own interest, he would lose the beta key.
|
Bone_Idle, if there is some answer that makes you give the key to the person you ask, then if the HoN dude is smart enough, he will give that answer.
If there is no such answer, you never give the key to the person you ask, then you have to get some information about the other two people from the person you ask. By the rules of the puzzle, the person you ask does not know anything about the other two contestants, and therefore cannot reveal anything about them.
|
This what my thought process:
We want to give the beta to a starcraft player, hence we must know from this one yes or no question who the person questioned is(SC player or HoN). That is, we must know if the person being questioned is a 'truth teller or a liar', or a HoN player. So I need to think of a question where the truth and liar will be the same and the HoN player is different than the other two. Since the HoN player can be yes or no and exhausts both answers as per the following quote, it provides no way of knowing a consistent response and can always be either or:
-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it.
Hence it is impossible to differentiate between the two groups (SC and HoN) and thinking about the question doesn't even to exist. It's not possible with the given information. Hope i'm right :-D
|
On February 13 2010 03:15 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 03:08 XeliN wrote: One aspect of what I am saying is that you can never be certain that the person you are asking is the HoN dude no matter what the response. That is not a problem if you ALWAYS give the key to one of the two people you are not asking.
The only situation on which you would give the key to one of the two people you are not asking is if you are sure the person being asked IS the HoN player
Therefore it is a problem still as you can never ask one of the individuals a question which would single out the HoN player//you can never be sure the person being asked is the HoN player.
|
-The contestants are complete strangers, they don't know anything about each other at all
The answer is highly dependent on what this means. Do they know that they're the only 3 people, do they know that there's 2 starcraft and 1 HoN?
The breakdown is you can't rely on the answer of the person you're asking*. So you must choose the other 2.
But the other person doesn't know anything about the other 2. Therefore you have to create interaction. Ask your person to choose one of the other two (you watch) and ask him a yes/no question to be chosen, and answer whether the person HE asked said yes/no.
*If that's illegal, then you lie to the person you're asking about, say the conditions of the contest. Like I have two keys, I'm giving one to the HoN player and one to a starcraft player, are you the HoN player? Or you could lie about the status of the other two players. Like there's two HoN players, but I only want to give it to a HoN player. Are you one of them? Technically that question doesn't work, but you could do something of the sort.
|
On February 13 2010 03:26 XeliN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 03:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 03:08 XeliN wrote: One aspect of what I am saying is that you can never be certain that the person you are asking is the HoN dude no matter what the response. That is not a problem if you ALWAYS give the key to one of the two people you are not asking. The only situation on which you would give the key to one of the two people you are not asking is if you are sure the person being asked IS the HoN player Therefore it is a problem still as you can never ask one of the individuals a question which would single out the HoN player//you can never be sure the person being asked is the HoN player. You are making a mistake of logic. We do not need to be sure the person we are asking is the HoN player. We just need to make sure the person we are giving the key to is not the HoN player. If, by some mechanism, player A reveals player C is the HoN player, then we can safely give B the key. Even though we cannot trust player A's answer, because he could be the HoN player, we can still safely give B the key because he would still be a starcraft player in that case.
The real issue is how to make player A reveal player C is the HoN player, if player A does not know anything about players B and C?
|
Creating interaction doesn't help either, player A cannot figure out which of player B or C is the HoN player, because they could both answer the same.
|
If the HoN player does not answer randomly, but can be tricked into revealing information, then it becomes a psychology problem not a logic puzzle. You have to guess things like "how smart is the HoN player"
|
I'm not sure whether my answering the questions will point you too much in the direction of the answer so just assume everything here is a spoiler or a big hint even though it may not be.
+ Show Spoiler +@Klive Actually your previous attempt was interesting. In fact I'm even going to go as far as to say it's very close to the actual solution. @L HoN player can lie/tell the truth whenever. I think this is actually a big hint so I will spoiler it again + Show Spoiler +you have to account for situation where he lies to answer the question, and another where he doesn't lie to answer that same question -- and your conclusion should not change regardless of what he does. a tall order, i know. @Bone_Idle Probably when I post my next one. @igotmyown I'm not sure how to unambiguously describe what "they dont know anything about each other" means. Consider that they cannot answer questions of the nature "would this other dude over here lie if i asked him X" because they don't know. I guess they are aware there are other people, but beyond that there's nothing. Just pretend it really is 3 strangers, and that's all. That's the best way I can think of it. @phrubjbaz yes, that's a very important point. Remember, you're not trying to determine who the HoN player is. You're trying to determine who the HoN player is NOT. A fine line, but it makes all the difference in this puzzle. And no this is not a psychology problem.
|
On February 13 2010 03:52 JeeJee wrote: [spoiler]@Klive Actually your previous attempt was interesting. In fact I'm even going to go as far as to say it's very close to the actual solution.
Which previous attempt? I've a sneaking suspicion that you're describing my attempt that he was the first person to quote, and my ego won't stand for not getting the credit, if so!
@igotmyown I'm not sure how to unambiguously describe what "they dont know anything about each other" means. Consider that they cannot answer questions of the nature "would this other dude over here lie if i asked him X" because they don't know. I guess they are aware there are other people, but beyond that there's nothing. Just pretend it really is 3 strangers, and that's all. That's the best way I can think of it.
Can I ask one of the contestants to ask the others questions and report back with the answers (providing that it comes out as a single yes/no answer, of course)?
|
Can I ask one of the contestants to ask the others questions and report back with the answers (providing that it comes out as a single yes/no answer, of course)?
I will say that the answer I have in mind does not require this, but I also haven't thought of trying it like that. So I'd like to see what you can come up with, and if it works, then great!
edit: of course I am keeping the restriction of only one question being asked. I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind, but if it's something like "hey person A. Ask person B <insert yes/no qusetion> and tell me what he says" then go ahead.
@MoC they can't answer that, they're complete strangers. they would have no idea what the other person would say. Unless I'm mis-interpreting it?
|
Germany2896 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Obviously you can't give it to the player you asked. Ask A: What would the other Starcraft player say if I asked him if B is a Starcraft player? Answer yes: Give it to C, answer no: Give it to B
|
So my answer wasn't it?
I'll repost it so you don't have to search for it
"I will give you the beta key to you if you are willing to tell a lie for me, would you do it?"
Liar: would lie, says opposite: no Truth: wouldn't lie, says so, no HoN player: wants key, saying yes is in his best interests
*edit* Just realised Slayer91 already posted this question page 1 anyway, o well
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 04:16 MasterOfChaos wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Obviously you can't give it to the player you asked. Ask A: What would the other Starcraft player say if I asked him if B is a Starcraft player? Answer yes: Give it to C, answer no: Give it to B
I thought it was established before that none of the other players know anything about one another?
EDIT: I like Handfish's answer. Even if it isn't it, I like it.
|
Germany2896 Posts
On February 13 2010 04:20 TheYango wrote: I thought it was established before that none of the other players know anything about one another? I'd say it is impossible then, unless you go for some rule tricks(like players are allowed to not answer at all, or giving them instructions). Proof: If you ask the HoN player, you don't gain any info from his answer, so you must give it to one of the other players. If you ask an SC player, neither you, nor him knows which of the others is the SC player, so you can't succeed with certainty.
edit1: You can win it using psychological assumptions, but never with certainty. For example the assumption that the HoN player believes that what you are saying is true. edit2: handfish uses this assumption
|
On February 13 2010 04:19 HaNdFisH wrote: So my answer wasn't it?
I'll repost it so you don't have to search for it
"I will give you the beta key to you if you are willing to tell a lie for me, would you do it?"
Liar: would lie, says opposite: no Truth: wouldn't lie, says so, no HoN player: wants key, saying yes is in his best interests
That's an interesting answer. However.. there's kind of an implicit assumption that the HoN player is telling the truth about his capacity to lie. He could lie about his capacity to lie and even though he's willing to lie, he could say 'no'. I'm not sure if that makes sense? it seems to me this is more of a psychological answer as you're playing off of what is in the "best interests" of the HoN player, correct me if I'm wrong. This isn't intended to be a psychology problem
|
|
So do the three players know how many of them play HoN and how many of them play SC?
|
So does the HoN player always either tell the truth or lie?
If that's the case, then + Show Spoiler +The question to ask is: If I asked you "Are you a HoN player?" would you say yes?
If he's a truth-teller, he's not a HoN player, so he would say no to the 1st part of the question. Since he won't say Yes to the 2nd part of the question, he'd answer No.
If he's a liar, he's not a HoN player, so he would say yes to the 1st part of the question. But to the 2nd part of the question if he says yes, he'd be telling the truth so he'd also answer No.
If he's the HoN player, he can either tell the truth or lie. a) If truth, he'd say yes to the 1st part of the question. And in the 2nd part of the question he'd also say yes, so he will answer Yes. b) If lie, he'd say no to the 1st part of the question. However, he would lie for the 2nd part of the question and answer Yes.
So in the end, you'd give it to the guy who answers No to the question.
But this is assuming the HoN player doesn't answer randomly and always either tells the truth or a lie. If this fails, odds are still with you, so GAMBLEEEEEEE.
|
I guess to avoid the whole 'hmm what can I ask such that if I ask the HoN player I can make him lie/tell the truth' line of thinking (it is not intended to be a psychological exercise), let's just put it the way someone else did earlier in the thread -- if you happen to pick the HoN player, he is going to flip a fair coin where heads = him lying, and tails = him telling the truth. You can't see the coin or anything of course. Correct me if this changes the puzzle in any way, although I don't think it does.
re:mayorITC, no they don't know anything about the other 2 contestants.
|
well, it's interesting, if you ask the question "if i were to ask you if you played sc, would you say yes?" the both sc players say yes. but that doesnt really help you since the other guy could say yes too.
|
On February 13 2010 05:11 JeeJee wrote: I guess to avoid the whole 'hmm what can I ask such that if I ask the HoN player I can make him lie/tell the truth' line of thinking (it is not intended to be a psychological exercise), let's just put it the way someone else did earlier in the thread -- if you happen to pick the HoN player, he is going to flip a fair coin where heads = him lying, and tails = him telling the truth. You can't see the coin or anything of course. Correct me if this changes the puzzle in any way, although I don't think it does.
re:mayorITC, no they don't know anything about the other 2 contestants. This makes it really difficult because there's nothing separating the SC players' answers and the HoN player's answer.
I'm terribly confused lol
EDIT: What if your question gives away that there are two SC players and one HoN player haha
|
Can you ask a question that prevents the SC players from answering, assuming the HoN player's response is a completely random coin flip regardless of the question asked.
"Among you is someone who always tells lies, if I were to ask that person "Will your response to this question be yes?" what would their response be?"
Truth: "Will your response to this question be yes?" is answered truthfully by yes and no. No way to lie as a response. Liar: Is the liar in question so is just like the Truth response, cannot answer the question with a lie (I think here there would be another opposite applied due to it being a question about what his response would be to a question, but it doesn't affect the fact he still can't reply). HoN: Picks a random response 50/50
|
@handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
Also I'm not really sure how to answer the question you proposed, it's self-referring. I guess that is the point, so if you get an answer that means it must've been chosen at random? but consider what i said above.
re: below His answer is not random, but his decision to lie or to tell the truth might as well be considered as such (consider the coin analogy). The two are not the same. Trying to influence the HoN player to lie or to tell the truth turns this into a psychological problem which was not the intent.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 04:32 JeeJee wrote: That's an interesting answer. However.. there's kind of an implicit assumption that the HoN player is telling the truth about his capacity to lie. He could lie about his capacity to lie and even though he's willing to lie, he could say 'no'. I'm not sure if that makes sense? it seems to me this is more of a psychological answer as you're playing off of what is in the "best interests" of the HoN player, correct me if I'm wrong. This isn't intended to be a psychology problem In which case, you're saying the HoN player's answer is essentially random. If his decisions are not explicitly based on what he perceives to be his best interest, then the only thing they could possibly be based on is random whim, because there are no other rules set forth for how he can answer.
If such is the case, there's no yes/no question you can put forth to solve this, because you have to be able to guarantee what the HoN player will answer to be able to guarantee that someone isn't the HoN player.
|
|
Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
|
On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
I was thinking along the same lines.
It's an impossible puzzle :[
|
On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though.
I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is:
-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it.
|
On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption.
|
On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: Show nested quote +-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh?
Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things?
Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can.
Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts.
On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes.
Why hasn't his answer been verified?
|
On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified?
I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong
His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD
|
United States47024 Posts
"Is it simultaneously the case that your answer to this question is fixed, and that you will to lie to me or that your answer to this question is not fixed and that you will tell the truth?"
Truth-teller: Answer is fixed (because he will always tell the truth), will tell the truth - answers no. Liar: Answer is fixed (because he will always lie), will lie - answers no (reverse of truth) HoN player: - Answer is not fixed, will tell the truth - answers yes - Answer is not fixed, will lie - answers yes (reverse of truth)
Edit: just realized that my answer is the same as FoieGras's just way more clumsily worded (using fixed-answer instead of HoN player as a way of distinguishing the HoN player XD).
|
On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. It also doesn't say that once he decides to lie or not, he has to answer the whole question assuming he lies/tells the truth. I guess you really need a perfectly logical mind not to make the assumption that the HoN's answers would be unreliable, from the rule that he lies or tells the truth whenever he feels like it. The rule doesn't say that, it's true. The puzzle would be much easier if you framed it like "the HoN player either always lies or always tells the truth, but you don't know which."
Thanks for the fun puzzle!
|
On February 13 2010 06:30 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:-The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. It also doesn't say that once he decides to lie or not, he has to answer the whole question assuming he lies/tells the truth.  I guess you really need a perfectly logical mind not to make the assumption that the HoN's answers would be unreliable, from the rule that he lies or tells the truth whenever he feels like it. The rule doesn't say that, it's true. The puzzle would be much easier if you framed it like "the HoN player either always lies or always tells the truth, but you don't know which." Thanks for the fun puzzle!
Thanks, I will keep that in mind for the next re-telling if there is one ^_^ still I think the natural assumption is that the answer is unreliable if it's framed like that, but it is less ambiguous for sure. I'll edit the OP for any newcomers to the thread.
|
The "choose to lie or tell the truth" rather than "choose an answer randomly" part got me stuck for a long time to be honest. Had to re-read the question quite a few times before I got that.
|
On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD
On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote: Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O
|
On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote: Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O
yep, but that doesn't mean he gives a random answer =) foiegras' answer illustrates quite well (and klive5's on the first page does too) that there are questions that only have one answer regardless of whether you're lying or not.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote: Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O Yes, he's choosing whether to lie. The trick is, you have to phrase a question that the HoN player gives the same answer to, regardless of whether he's telling the truth or lying, and at the same time being different from the answer the Starcraft players would give (which must also be identical to one another).
@JeeJee, the question is more explainable if you have 4 people: 2 HoN players and 2 SC players. One HoN player and one SC player each always lie, and one HoN player and one SC player always tell the truth. It's basically the same, because with 3, you're basically choosing randomly from the HoN player's 2 alter egos (the liar and the truth-teller).
|
On February 13 2010 06:42 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 06:38 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:29 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote:On February 13 2010 06:08 Phrujbaz wrote: Puzzle Rule 1: The HoN player ignores your question and simply gives a random answer.
Puzzle Rule 2: The player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the two remaining players.
1) Therefore, there is no way to verify that the player you are asking your question to is not the HoN player, as he could give the same answer to your question that a Starcraft player would.
2) Therefore, you can never give the key to the player that you ask your question to.
3) Therefore, you must make the player that you ask your question to reveal which of the two remaining players is the HoN player and which is the Starcraft player.
As per puzzle rule 2, this is impossible, since the player you are asking your question to does not know anything about the other two players, and thus cannot reveal anything.
Whoever sees the flaw in my logic has probably solved the puzzle. That, or I got the rules wrong.
Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. I think elaborating any further on this point would basically give away the solution though. I'm not sure where this came from; the constraint, as stated in the OP is: -The HoN player really wants that beta key so he's willing to lie or tell the truth whenever he feels like it. It doesn't say he's willing to say yes or no whenever he feels like it. Eh? Your posts aren't making any sense. Could you clarify on a few things? Is the HoN player's answer based on the fact that he wants to get an HoN key? I assumed not because you said he randomly decides on an answer. In this case, you cannot solve the problem because there's no answer to differentiate between the truth teller from the HoN player or the liar from the HoN player because the HoN player can answer anything the other two can. Is this logic incorrect? Because this is what I'm getting from your posts. On February 13 2010 06:15 Phrujbaz wrote:On February 13 2010 06:00 JeeJee wrote: @handfish Using the coin analogy, the hon player doesn't flip a coin to decide whether he's going to say 'yes' or 'no'. He flips the coin to decide whether he's going to lie or not.
This behaviour of the HoN player would be very strange given the story. In any case, FoieGras already solved the problem under that assumption. Oh wait, this is true. It doesn't matter, FoieGras' situation shows that the HoN player can only answer Yes. Why hasn't his answer been verified? I don't think I ever said he chooses an answer randomly, correct me if I'm wrong His answer has been verified, just not in public. Usually people stop trying to work out for themselves when a correct answer is in the thread because they can just go and read it so I wanted to keep it going a bit longer. But yes his answer is correct =) so if you're still working on the puzzle, rest assured there is an answer, and resist the urge to read his spoiler! xD On February 13 2010 06:14 JeeJee wrote: Like I wrote above, he doesn't give a random answer. He randomly decides whether he is going to lie or not, and then gives the corresponding answer. This is the part I'm referring to. o_O yep, but that doesn't mean he gives a random answer =) foiegras' answer illustrates quite well (and klive5's on the first page does too) that there are questions that only have one answer regardless of whether you're lying or not. Ah, now I understand the difference. At first I interpreted giving a random answer as being the same as choosing an answer randomly. >_<
|
|
the trick is to get the absolutes(Always and never) to get the same result and the sometimes responses(sometimes lies and sometimes tells the truth) to yield the same result, but different than the absolutes.
I was thinking of something like, "Sometimes you tell a lie responding Yes"
I know this doesn't work but hopefully it'll help someone as I haven't thought about this too much and want to because I love these problems!!!! Keep it up jeejee :-)
Truth=>will say no because he or she doesnt tell a lie Liar=>will say no because the statement is true, and he or she does sometimes respond yes to his lie. Hon truth=> will respond YES Hon liar=>will respond No because he or she does infact sometimes tell a lie responding yes
I think the logic play is somewhere hidden with the absolutes vs sometimes, and that might be in there. I hope this helps some people!
I'm going to try to figure this out later tonight :-)
|
lololol nvm ill bbl
edit:
-The HoN player really wants that beta key -- he could choose to do either. so he can either lie to the whole question or he can tell the truth, correct??
|
|
|
|