hey TL- I am just writing this blog, so that way the entirety of TL could be my personal army. I have a simple request. My father has for a long time been disgusted with the fact that I play starcraft. Time and Time again i have told him that this game is like chess 2.0 and really has a ton of strategic depth.
So long story short- what would be the best starcraft game to show my long time chess playing father? When he has seen me play, he merely thinks that i am clicking buttons randomly, and that starcraft is stupid becuase the person that clicks the fastest wins.
I have thought of a few, but i was hoping for some of your suggestions.
Flash vs Jaedong on katrina GGplay vs Flash on Medusa Any flash vs fantasy finals set some crazy upmagic game?
Really i am at a loss. any help and suggestions appreciated.
I don't think he'll get anything if you show him a game. You could try showing him how big SC is in Korea for example, or try to argue by showing how big a business gaming is... I dunno.
He's not going to understand the depth of the game by watching some random VOD commentated by Koreans with no prior knowledge of the game. Furthermore, he does not appear to want to know anything about the game. I think you're wasting your time.
If you're going to show him a game though, show him a TvT.
If he doesn't play or understand the game and thinks it's just randomly clicking, showing him a game isn't really going to help. Since you brought up chess, a similar analogy would be trying to show a person who doesn't even know the rules how strategically rich it is by watching Kasparov play.
The problem is, assuming that he is both new to Starcraft and video games in general. That he won't be able to appreciate a good game of starcraft without knowing how the game works. Before you can show him a good game of starcraft, I think an introduction to the games fundamentals would be needed.
In regards to what game you should show him, i think that a smart micro oriented build (cheese if you must) would be ideal, since they often provoke more awe than more drawn out macroish games. Any game where decisionmaking plays a critical role really, that should eliminate the button mashing argument.
there was this one tvt, boxer vs..somebody. its a newer one, happened last year. dont remember what map either. at a certain point boxer loads everything up in dropships and flies to get a position. when you see it, you think "oh he's gonna take the cliffs." obviously his opponent thinks that too. but instead he just drops 2 tanks, sieges them up, and flies up and around the incoming army. his opponent thinks hes taken the cliff so he loads up into dropships and flies onto the cliff. at the exact moment this happens, boxer rolls into his base and unloads a control group of dropships for gg
I suggest popping over to Day9's livestream site, and showing him one of the more analytical VODs with Mr 9's excellent analysis, so that he gets an inkling of the subtleties of what's going through the mind of a good starcraft player in relative slow motion...
Definitely show him the translated VOD of boxer vs hiya, from a long time ago. It shows how boxer planned out the whole damn match from the proxy 2rax to the wraiths to the contains. Your dad can also read the commentary, so that's a plus.
Sounds like he really wouldn't be interested in watching a game since you say he's "disgusted" that you play the game. I'd say don't bother, different strokes for different folks and let him think what he will.
Unless of course he is trying to use his argument to stop you from playing entirely, then you've got a different situation on your hands...
Your father's blind arrogance will prevent him from being able to approach this topic open-minded. I'm sure it has good intentions but I would guess he refuses to even play the game to learn enough about it to discover where the strategic element exist. I don't think you will be able to change his mind because he is unwilling - so just try not to adopt his arrogance to prevent this with your own children someday.
If you really want to demonstrate that Starcraft is not about clicking, then you need to show this guy July vs. Best in the EVER OSL.
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
Game 1 demonstrates the importance of scouting - something that chess does not have. Chess is a game of perfect information, Starcraft is a game of limited information. July uses Best's limited information to surprise him with a 5-pool. This game has nothing to do with clicking. You can also talk about the psychological disadvantage this puts Best in - his opponent just did something ridiculous in the most prestigious tournament in Starcraft and won.
Game 2 demonstrates the importance of seizing an opportunity - something that chess does not have. Since chess is not played in real-time (that is, since you cannot macro or micro in chess to improve your game), players act based on knowledge of all current and future possibilities. However, Starcraft is too 'big' a game to even look a few steps ahead. When July sees the small unit count in Best's base and realizes his overlord is going to die, he makes another incredible gamble (he could potentially have lost the game immediately) and does that awesome Bisu-face drone drill. In effect, he is changing the rules of the game. Best had access to his base blocked. Nothing could get past. Except July decided to do something unexpected and unprecedented.
Game 3 is so full of strategy and psychology that I'll let you fill in the blanks.
However, your dad is not gonna understand the strategy of the game without understanding at least the basic units and so on. I mean, chess does not have hit points, attack damage, range, height advantage and other mechanical things which are fundamental to Starcraft.
On January 03 2010 06:48 mikeymoo wrote: Well chess is kinda stupid because the person who thinks the best wins.
bunch of newbs with no mechanics
You need like what.. 1 APM? Disgusting. Imagine chess being played at 400 APM, except every single piece is a group of 12 units, which you have to control individually. And also when you try to attack a piece, if one person can maneuver the pieces better, then your attempt at a capture is unsuccessful and you may very well lose that piece yourself. Also you have the ability to regenerate your units, but only if your economy permits. And you have to play it on a computer screen.
Don't play StarCraft in front of your dad. Seriously, that would avoid a lot of the issues... a lot of the time it's better to just avoid the trouble -people can't always be convinced.
I think it makes sense that his opinion is so misguided. All he has seen is you clicking. Someone who has seen people externally play chess a couple times would be missing the a lot of the facts about the game too. Until he is forced to play at least 5 quality hours and trying to win he is ignorant of the game and unwilling to judge correctly. I think your dad may still be stuck in God mode where it is a fear to let you see him wrong about anything. Thus, he will prevent you from getting an opportunity to prove him wrong, which is why he would avoid playing the game.
On January 03 2010 06:48 mikeymoo wrote: Well chess is kinda stupid because the person who thinks the best wins.
bunch of newbs with no mechanics
You need like what.. 1 APM? Disgusting. Imagine chess being played at 400 APM, except every single piece is a group of 12 units, which you have to control individually. And also when you try to attack a piece, if one person can maneuver the pieces better, then your attempt at a capture is unsuccessful and you may very well lose that piece yourself. Also you have the ability to regenerate your units, but only if your economy permits. And you have to play it on a computer screen.
lol I would actually say this
I usually show Day9 commentaries to friends who don't know anything about SC when I'm trying to impress them with how much tactical depth it has
I have no deep understanding of chess, but I'm guessing the level strategic thinking in modern StarCraft is nowhere near chess. If Starcraft stayed alive for another 5years, we'd be seeing some pretty sick games.
But I guess your point is to prove that there IS thinking and adapting involved. Boxer vs Hiya would be a good game to show him. And pimpest moves like Casy vs July Fake Expo.
On January 03 2010 06:48 Harem wrote: Show him the subtitled Boxer vs Hiya on Blue Storm.
On January 03 2010 06:55 Aim Here wrote: I suggest popping over to Day9's livestream site, and showing him one of the more analytical VODs with Mr 9's excellent analysis, so that he gets an inkling of the subtleties of what's going through the mind of a good starcraft player in relative slow motion...
Definitely one of these. You need to show him something that explains how incredibly complex and strategically deep the game is. He can't understand that by watching little animations move around on a map with useless korean commentary.
Maybe Casy vs July, the game where he fakes the expansion? I actually haven't seen that many Day9 videos but I'd recommend them anyway, just knowing how damn good he is at explaining things.
Maybe that short Flash vs Mind clip (where Flash defends the vult fake-> drop).
my dad was so disgusted at me playing starcraft that he literally took my original starcraft Disc and destroyed it in two. However i torrented another copy of starcraft and continued to play. GG.
except for me i cannot argue how good starcraft is with asian parents.
I have met people like your father (my father is also like that). They do not want to know anything about the game and would be more than happy to see it destroyed and see you in your room studying. And when I told people that it was a professional sport in Korea, they got even more disgusted and said that Koreans have no life. I regret not saying the same thing about their football.
On January 03 2010 07:55 niteReloaded wrote: Your father is right.
I have no deep understanding of chess, but I'm guessing the level strategic thinking in modern StarCraft is nowhere near chess. If Starcraft stayed alive for another 5years, we'd be seeing some pretty sick games.
Sorry to pick you out of the bunch, but what does this even mean? Starcraft is not chess 2.0 because Starcraft is not anything like chess 1.0. Chess is a turn-based strategy game with perfect information. Starcraft is a real-time strategy game with imperfect information (in just about every aspect of the game).
In chess, both players have access to all possible future states 'x' moves ahead (where 'x' depends on the experience of the player and other factors). The strategy in chess it to play the strongest possible game. There is little opportunity for deception in chess in comparison to Starcraft. You can't 5-pool your chess opponent in the first round to throw him off in the second round. But so much in Starcraft is based upon scouting your opponent, not letting him scout you, and letting him see things which will confuse or otherwise deceive him (e.g. if you 12 hatched vs. a Terran, and your opponent's SCV is circling around your main, you can make the lair at your natural and he will guess that you are getting ling speed).
The other thing is the fluidity of Starcraft. In Starcraft, you cannot go into a game saying "I'm gonna do 'x' strategy" because what if your opponent does something that counters 'x' strategy? What if your opponent does something completely whacky that you don't expect? You can't go with that strategy anymore. The thing is that in Starcraft this readjustment of strategy takes place almost continuously up until the late game. The same thing happens in chess but not nearly to the same degree. If you see your opponent doing some particular strategy in chess, you can't just perform an all-in counter on the spot. In Starcraft, you can do this because of the fluid nature of the game and because of imperfect information.
Think of the second set of July vs. Best in the EVER OSL finals where July did the drone drill that ended the game immediately. That kind of situation can never happen in chess. Chess is about the long game. Starcraft is about the superposition of the current game and the long game and how they conflict and complement each other.
Saying that Starcraft strategy is not as deep as chess is like saying that China is not as deep underground as the moon. You're just abusing the meaning of the word. The fact is you can't really compare the strategy in chess with the strategy in Starcraft because they are of a completely different nature.
Jaedong vs Lomo game 3 on Katrina in GomTV season 1! My favourite game and probably the best game I've ever seen. I always show this one to friends starting sc.
On January 03 2010 07:55 niteReloaded wrote: Your father is right.
I have no deep understanding of chess, but I'm guessing the level strategic thinking in modern StarCraft is nowhere near chess. If Starcraft stayed alive for another 5years, we'd be seeing some pretty sick games.
Sorry to pick you out of the bunch, but what does this even mean? Starcraft is not chess 2.0 because Starcraft is not anything like chess 1.0. Chess is a turn-based strategy game with perfect information. Starcraft is a real-time strategy game with imperfect information (in just about every aspect of the game).
In chess, both players have access to all possible future states 'x' moves ahead (where 'x' depends on the experience of the player and other factors). The strategy in chess it to play the strongest possible game. There is little opportunity for deception in chess in comparison to Starcraft. You can't 5-pool your chess opponent in the first round to throw him off in the second round. But so much in Starcraft is based upon scouting your opponent, not letting him scout you, and letting him see things which will confuse or otherwise deceive him (e.g. if you 12 hatched vs. a Terran, and your opponent's SCV is circling around your main, you can make the lair at your natural and he will guess that you are getting ling speed).
The other thing is the fluidity of Starcraft. In Starcraft, you cannot go into a game saying "I'm gonna do 'x' strategy" because what if your opponent does something that counters 'x' strategy? What if your opponent does something completely whacky that you don't expect? You can't go with that strategy anymore. The thing is that in Starcraft this readjustment of strategy takes place almost continuously up until the late game. The same thing happens in chess but not nearly to the same degree. If you see your opponent doing some particular strategy in chess, you can't just perform an all-in counter on the spot. In Starcraft, you can do this because of the fluid nature of the game and because of imperfect information.
Think of the second set of July vs. Best in the EVER OSL finals where July did the drone drill that ended the game immediately. That kind of situation can never happen in chess. Chess is about the long game. Starcraft is about the superposition of the current game and the long game and how they conflict and complement each other.
Saying that Starcraft strategy is not as deep as chess is like saying that China is not as deep underground as the moon. You're just abusing the meaning of the word. The fact is you can't really compare the strategy in chess with the strategy in Starcraft because they are of a completely different nature.
Do you need to think strategically to play Starcraft? yes. Do you need to think strategically to play chess? yes. So there is some similarity, let's just end it right there. Nobody said Starcraft = Chess on computers anyway.
Unless your dad has a deep understanding of the game, I don't think any game ever would look impressive. To someone who has no knowledge of the game, it does look like random fast clicks.
On January 03 2010 07:55 niteReloaded wrote: Your father is right.
I have no deep understanding of chess, but I'm guessing the level strategic thinking in modern StarCraft is nowhere near chess. If Starcraft stayed alive for another 5years, we'd be seeing some pretty sick games.
Sorry to pick you out of the bunch, but what does this even mean? Starcraft is not chess 2.0 because Starcraft is not anything like chess 1.0. Chess is a turn-based strategy game with perfect information. Starcraft is a real-time strategy game with imperfect information (in just about every aspect of the game).
In chess, both players have access to all possible future states 'x' moves ahead (where 'x' depends on the experience of the player and other factors). The strategy in chess it to play the strongest possible game. There is little opportunity for deception in chess in comparison to Starcraft. You can't 5-pool your chess opponent in the first round to throw him off in the second round. But so much in Starcraft is based upon scouting your opponent, not letting him scout you, and letting him see things which will confuse or otherwise deceive him (e.g. if you 12 hatched vs. a Terran, and your opponent's SCV is circling around your main, you can make the lair at your natural and he will guess that you are getting ling speed).
The other thing is the fluidity of Starcraft. In Starcraft, you cannot go into a game saying "I'm gonna do 'x' strategy" because what if your opponent does something that counters 'x' strategy? What if your opponent does something completely whacky that you don't expect? You can't go with that strategy anymore. The thing is that in Starcraft this readjustment of strategy takes place almost continuously up until the late game. The same thing happens in chess but not nearly to the same degree. If you see your opponent doing some particular strategy in chess, you can't just perform an all-in counter on the spot. In Starcraft, you can do this because of the fluid nature of the game and because of imperfect information.
Think of the second set of July vs. Best in the EVER OSL finals where July did the drone drill that ended the game immediately. That kind of situation can never happen in chess. Chess is about the long game. Starcraft is about the superposition of the current game and the long game and how they conflict and complement each other.
Saying that Starcraft strategy is not as deep as chess is like saying that China is not as deep underground as the moon. You're just abusing the meaning of the word. The fact is you can't really compare the strategy in chess with the strategy in Starcraft because they are of a completely different nature.
Do you need to think strategically to play Starcraft? yes. Do you need to think strategically to play chess? yes. So there is some similarity, let's just end it right there. Nobody said Starcraft = Chess on computers anyway.
Orange juice and wine are different, but orange juice has a better taste. This is the statement which you made which I was talking about. You said that Starcraft is not as strategically deep as chess - that's what I was addressing.
On January 03 2010 09:01 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Orange juice and wine are different, but orange juice has a better taste. This is the statement which you made which I was talking about. You said that Starcraft is not as strategically deep as chess - that's what I was addressing.
StarCraft is definitely as strategical as chess. Just in my opinion without anything backing it up.
However i believe no one is in any position to make an assumption that chess requires more strategy than starcraft or vice versa. Because its highly unlikely that you've played both in a competitive level.
i for one can say that during macro games where most noobs would see nothing but people massing units i can see an enormous amount of thought that was used during the game.
He's making a judgment about something without understanding it. The only way to get him to change his mind is for him to actually play the game. Plain. And. Simple.
a high level TvT ending with really intelligent battlecruiser play on a 4 player map. or a good macro based TvP on tau cross. both look a lot like chess and you can explain the army movements as both avoid each other then turn back to gain position.
Chess and starcraft I'm doing a little comparison between starcraft and chess here. Further down you will find a summary table explaining some of the most important differences and similarities. I've also included my suggestions for explaining starcraft to a chessplayer who lacks a background playing RTS games in the spoilers.
For starters, if you are going to appeal to his chess-liking side I suggest you go with a TvT with a clear and well executed gameplan. For example Fantasy vs Mind in the Incruit OSL 2008:
01:00 - 02:00 The first part of the game is forced, both players need to produce as many mining units as possible.
02:10 - 04:00 Players needs to build a Barracks and a Factory, without these buildings a player cannot produce good attacking units.
02:50 Mind is deviating from the normal opening game by prioritizing getting early gas. This will enable him to get out a few more Tank-units in beginning and gain a temporary spatial advantage at the cost of producing fewer units later on.
04:30 - 05:30 Fantasy is getting an expansion, he will produce fewer attacking units while this expansion is being built and therefore need to defend. If he succeeds in securing the expansion, he will be able to produce double the amount of units.
In the meantime Mind is delaying his own expansion further in favour of another building. With the Starport Mind will build the Wraith. This unit will consolidate his spatial advantage.
06:00 - 07:30 Mind has a superior army and goes out to secure a better position on the battlefield. Fantasy has to stay with his units at his expansion to defend because of Minds flying Wraith.
09:00 - 10:00 Fantasy has more units than Mind thanks to him building an earlier expansion. It is hard for him to utilizing his extra units though, they have a very limited space to manouver. Minds fewer units is much better placed.
10.30 - 11.00 Fantasy tries to break out to the center of the map but fails and looses more units than Mind. 11.00 - 11.30 Fantasy also does a flanking attack but his droppship was shooten down before it could do any damage.
11:30 - 15:00 Mind is winning. He continues to strengthen his contain to make sure Fantasy is completely blocked in.
15:00 Mind has built another expansion. Fantasy has also built a new expansion, but Minds is better since it contains gas, which is needed for producing more tanks. Soon Mind will produce more tanks than fantasy.
16:00 - 20:30 Fantasy use droopship flanking tactics to try and get back in the game. Minds contain holds.
20:30 Mind moves in with his superior army and destroys Fantasys expansion.
23:00 Soon Fantasy will get checkmated. He gives up, GG.
In both chess and starcraft this is the most essential one. The one with the most units are usually ahead (if your dad is a good chessplayer he probably has better understanding of this element than you do). Some units are more valuable than others and you want to kill off valuable enemy units while protecting your own.
+ The second element is activity (sometimes called controll/initiative). + Show Spoiler +
Units are better placed attacking the enemy miners (compare to King in chess) than in some far-away corner, some units are better suited for some operations than others. Controlling the map helps by getting better placed units and making expanding easier. Chess is also a game where build orders is very important.
How much time you have to consider different moves and strategies is very important elements in both chess and starcraft. Usually contenders seek to make their own play easy and their opponent difficult and time consuming. Chess being turn-based doesn't make much difference in this case. Be carefull with using this argument however, some chessplayers are really put off by cheesy strategies which aims to confuse or trick opponents. I do not know your dads standpoint on this issue.
Main differences:
- There exists a third element in starcraft, I call it information. + Show Spoiler +
Chess is a game of complete information, in other words, scouting is both impossible and unnecessary. I have two suggestions to deal with this: 1. There is chess-variants incorporating incomplete information. Get him to play a few games of dark chess for him to grasp the concept - http://play.chessvariants.org/erf/DarkChss.html 2. Begin by showing him games where incomplete information or scouting does not impact the outcome of the game (do not show him a buildorder ZvZ win).
In chess there is plenty of opportunities to loose units, but only one way of getting a stronger army yourself (you can "morph" a pawn into the superior queen). This resource gathering system will take a little explaining. You could try to simplify it by comparing getting an expansion base in starcraft to gaining an additional queen in chess.
In chess both players start out the same and has the same possibilities (except for white moving first). In starcraft there is three different races and starting locations, making the game potentially unbalanced from the start. Avoid this problem by showing him a mirror matchup, preferably on a symmetrical 2 or 4 player map.
Both of these are ways of making your overall army better in the long run at the cost of temporarily producing less units. No need for a detailed explanation here.
I would go with a micro intensive game commentated in english. A macro intensive game played by Flash or so might be too hard to understand unless you already know a lot about StarCraft.
Then again, if you are talking about comparing it to chess, you might want to show him a game that has a lot of "if he does this, I do this" to it. The game that comes to mind is the Casy vs July game on Reverse Temple.
but honestly... if I were a dad, and I see my kid playing a silly video game all day while I play a sophisiticated game and stood the test of time like chess, no amount of day[9] strategic commentary can change my mind about the game being stupid.
honestly, everygame CAN be strategical i mean, if you are really into a game, you can make any video game sound like as deep as you want. don't think starcraft is anything special just because it is to us.
i mean its not like your dad plays civilization4 and think its more strategical than starcraft lol...
EPT
